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Admin Note: We know this is going to turn into an inter-jathebandi match, so this is being closed. Those who recite upto "Gurprasad", please continue to do so. Those who recite till "Nanak Hosi Bhi Sach", please continue to do so.

Wahegurujikakhalsawahegurujikifateh One time following a diwan by Sant Baba Harnam Singh Ji a member of the sangat asked Mahapursh what the best way to do ardas was? Santji smiled at the sikh and gestured toward a little girl he saw playing in the lap of her mother. Mahapursh then explained that in the same way a child calls out to their mother when they are lost/in pain so should a sikh call out towards Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. Such an internal/external cry doesn’t need to be taught. Each and everyone of us are born with it. Wahegurujikakhalsawahegurujikifateh

BAGHDAD — A desolate courtyard surrounded by fields of mournful graves is all that remains of an ancient shrine to the Sikh faith?s founder Guru Nanak inside a sprawling Muslim cemetery in Baghdad. War, insurgents or looters have wiped any trace of a historical footnote that had preserved the memory of the Indian holy man's 16th-century journey through Arabia and his stay in Baghdad, hailed by Sikhs as an early example of inter-faith dialogue. "No one visits anymore," lamented Abu Yusef, the lean and bearded Muslim caretaker, standing in the nearly-bare patio where a disorderly stack of broken electric fans and a discarded refrigerator replace the prayer books and articles of Sikh worship that had furnished a shrine whose modesty mirrored the apparent humility of the man it honoured. "Before the war a few Sikh pilgrims would occasionally arrive," Abu Yusef said, referring to the 2003 US-led invasion that toppled ex-dictator Saddam Hussein and unleashed an unending cycle of violence. "Once or twice we even had Western tourists. Last year, after a very long time, a Sikh man came from Dubai who promised to return and rebuild the shrine. But since then, nobody," he said with a resigned shrug of the shoulders. When they came, the pilgrims would stay a night or two and convert the shrine into a temple, Abu Yusef recalled. "They slept in the courtyard, where they also cooked large quantities of food to share after worship with whoever came along," he remembered, pointing to the places in the roofless, sun-beaten enclosure with whitewashed walls and a plain concrete dais that had housed prayer books, painted portraits of the guru and a prized stone plaque from the 16th century. What is known about the origins of the site, which lies today inside central Baghdad's expansive Sheikh Marouf cemetery that adjoins a disused train station where decaying railroad cars rest frozen on rusted tracks, is gleaned from scant historical sources. One is a Punjabi hymn by the poet and philosopher Bhai Gurdaas, written several decades after the visit. That song, part of the holy scriptures of the world's 25 million Sikhs, recounts Nanak's travels with the Muslim minstrel Mardana who was his constant companion, their arrival in Baghdad and lodging outside the city. In Baghdad, say historical Sikh sources, the pair stayed with Sheikh Bahlool Dana, a renowned Sufi Muslim of the time. "It is curious that the hymn recording Guru Nanak's visit says that he chose to stay outside Baghdad, which at the time was a wealthy, magnificent city and an important centre of learning," said Abdul Majid Padar, India's learned charge d'affaires in Baghdad. "That probably means he had reason to stay outside the city," he said. "I believe it was because he knew about Sheikh Bahlool, and went looking for him." Nanak, an enlightened spiritual thinker who was born a Hindu but gained deep knowledge of Islam as India's other major religion at the time, travelled throughout his homeland and parts of the Middle East, seeking other men of his ilk. He shunned religious labels, teaching that man is judged by deeds, not the religion he proclaims. His ideas, which later formed the basis of the monotheistic Sikh religion, drew from Hinduism and Islam, but are regarded as much broader than a mere synthesis of the two. "Guru Nanak's stay with Sheikh Bahlool was an early example of inter-faith dialogue, of a kind that is hard to imagine in Iraq today," said Dr Rajwant Singh of the the Sikh Council on Religion and Education in the United States. Iraq has been torn by sectarian strife since the fall of Saddam, with Shiites, Sunnis and even the country's small Christian community victims of the bloodshed. It is in the courtyard of the Muslim Bahlool's own humble tomb that, five centuries ago, the remembrance to Guru Nanak was erected. "This shrine is very much sacred to the Sikhs as it stands testimony to Guru Nanak's visit and dialogue with the Muslim Sufi sheikh of that place," said Balwant Singh Dhillon, professor of Sikh studies at the Guru Nanak Dev University in India. Modern accounts of the shrine date back to World War I when the site was rediscovered, after being lost in obscurity for centuries, by a regiment of Indian Sikh soldiers sent to Iraq with the British army. Dr Kirpal Singh, a Sikh captain in the Indian medical service who travelled to Iraq, described the shrine in a letter dated October 15, 1918. "It is really a humble looking building and known to very few people except Sikhs," he said in an account quoted by the SikhSpectrum.com online journal. Other accounts and faded photographs reveal an ancient stone plaque at the entrance, commemorating the building of the memorial, as the centrepiece of the shrine. The plaque was dated 917 on the Islamic calendar, or 1511 A.D. Pritpal K. Sethi, who visited Baghdad in 1968 with her late husband, in-laws and three children, told AFP she was moved to be standing at the same spot as the holy man. "I really got a great feeling as I was standing on the same site visited by Guru Nanak Sahib. It was a very emotional feeling," said Sethi, who was 31 at the time and living in neighbouring Kuwait. "It was a very small, simple structure of about 600 square feet (56 square metres). There was a large courtyard outside. Not many Sikhs used to visit at all," said Sethi, who is now 73 and living in the United States. "Definitely, the most precious thing at the shrine was the ancient plaque that verified the legitimacy of the site," she said. Curiously, it was the hymn by Gurdaas that probably led to the rediscovery of the shrine. Subedar Fateh Singh, one of the Sikh soldiers in Iraq during World War I, announced the discovery in 1918. "I am certain that Fateh Singh knew about the shrine from the hymn, which he must have learned in childhood, and he went looking for it," said Padar, the Indian embassy charge. The shrine was repaired by Sikh soldiers in the early 1930s, and reportedly again during World War II, when another regiment of Sikh soldiers was stationed in Iraq. But accounts of what happened more recently to the shrine and its contents, including the 16th century plaque precious to Sikhs, are sketchy. Shortly after the March 20, 2003 invasion of Iraq, Indian media reports variously said the shrine had been damaged or destroyed by US shelling, with other accounts claiming it had been bombed by Islamic extremists. But a visit to the shrine showed no hint of damage anywhere in or around the shrine, raising the possibility that everything, including the stone plaque, was likely looted. Abu Yusef, the caretaker, said he had been away at the time of the invasion and did not know what had happened and Padar, the Indian charge, said his own understanding of an attack during the war had come from news reports. But with the temple gone, the only footsteps of the Sikh holy man's journey through Baghdad remain in the memories of visitors like Sethi. "It greatly saddens me," she said about the shrine's destruction. "It signified Guru Nanak's wish to spread his message of peace, love and a rejection of superstitions and rituals in search of the truth," she said. "He yearned to spread this message throughout the world, and he travelled on foot from India to deliver it."

wrt Amrit - after much research I have concluded that it is the same regardless of the jathebandi, just so long as the basic rahit is followed. All 5 banis should be read. The main thing is that the sevadaars in the punj should have a strong jeevan. wrt to Naam Dhir - After research and discussions with mahapurkhs from various jathebandis I have found that no samprada considers Naam Dhrir (which is actually a method of imparting a simran technique) to be a requirement. I have heard from Baba Thakur Singh ji Bhindrenwaley and Baba Jagjit Singh ji Harkhowal that Naam Dhrir is not required. Baba Nihal Singh ji of Harien Valan also states that it is not required. There is no credible puratan source of information nor is there any Gurbani that states that it is required. basically, Naam dhrir is a different method of ''installing'' Gurmantr from the rest of the panth. The Amrit is the same, but this method differs and the jatha that follows this practice believe it to be the best, most effective method, while the rest of the panth do not believe that. This method of simran taught in Naam Dhrirdh is not the only method of simran, nor is it necessarily the best method. Guru Granth Sahib ji has other methods of simran listed in it. These methods clearly require someone to be somewhat advanced before they are even capable of using this vidhi, which proves that Naam Dhrir is not the sole ''best'' method of simran. Nor is there any guarantee of the fastest advancement with Naam Dhrir. In the end, there simply is no evidence to back up the claims that some make regarding this practice, nor are many of these claims true. That being said, if you do take it, it probably is a kirpa and no doubt won't hurt you. A note on Gurmantr - Gurmantar is different from the method used to jap naam. Gurmantar (often referred to as Naam) is something which can only be granted by the Punj Pyare and none other. Every Punj Pyare of every jatha grant Gurmantar. The punj are also supposed to teach how to do simran. Some call the imparting of a particular simran method naam dhridh while others call the giving of Gurmantar Naam Drirdh. A lot of people claiming to believe in Naam Drirdh are very confused as to what exactly it is. Every jatha teaches this sass girass method of simran (which is sometimes called naam dhridh), however, they very often do not use the label of naam dridh for it. . Sometimes the punj do not teach how to do simran (although they should) but this is not jatabandi based. This however, does not mean that you need to get amritchuk again, and you do not need to see the punj to learn a method of doing simran. It is not written down anywhere that this is required, nor is there any seena-baseena rahit recognised by any samprada or mahapursh that it must be taught only by punj. (Gurmantr of course is always given by punj). There is no one best method of simran. After doing much vichaar on this issue I've learned that mahapursh may teach one student to do one method of simran, and they teach another student another method of simran. Similar to how a doctor gives a medication for the ailment of one patient, and for another patient who is suffering differently they give a different medication. Once again I emphasize that Gurmantar is different from methods of doing simran, and Gurmantar is only given by the punj pyare, whereas methods of doing simran can be taught by others. In Guru Granth Sahib ji different methods for doing simran have been described. Mahapurks over the ages have also taught various simran methods to the sangat. For example, this is the saas-girass method of simran: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8Sfhfm1cXo. First step is to do simran with rasna (tongue). Bhai Raghbir Singh Bir, in Bandginama, talks about this practice, he says, "When you say Vah you breathe in and when you say Guroo you breathe out" Another example is Sant Juala Singh ji teaching a different method from any of the above of doing simran to Baba Jagjit Singh ji's father. There is an mp3 of Sant Mani Singh ji (UK) who said that he discussed with numerous mahapurkhs and found numerous different methods. When we do naam simran (with any technique) before we receive Khande Batte da Amrit, we benefit. However, the benefit we gain from doing naam simran after receiving Gurmantar is immense, far more than non-Amritdharis get.

Best thing to do is to contact wikipedia and explain that the original author's aim is to discredit Damdami Taksal. He doesn't let anyone correct his mistakes and his views are offensive to a large number of Sikhs. Contact them now.

Below is an email i received from a Gurmukh pyara, unfortunately he doesn't have a Sikh Sangat account and has asked me to paste his email here on his behalf.

This group Canadian Hindu Advocacy has been at it for some time. They are sly and more dangerous than many think.

Press Release and Sangat Update Irvine, Scotland, UK 2 February 2011 UK Sangat unites to prevent sacrilege of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj's Saroop Potential Beadbi in Irvine, Scotland prevented; local Sangat agrees this will not happen again in the future Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh! Over the last two months, the Satkaar Campaign's Sevaadars have been involved in an ongoing dialogue with members of the Ayrshire Sikh Association (the ASA) in Irvine, Ayrshire, Scotland, to put a halt to a regular monthly Diwan arranged by the ASA at a hall in Irvine. This hall is made available by the local council for all types of community bookings, including hosting parties which permit meat and alcohol. For each monthly Diwan, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj's Saroop would be taken to the hall from Nithsdale Road Gurdwara, Glasgow (40 miles away from hall). Guru Ji's Saroop going to such a hall is in direct violation of the spirit of Akaal Takhat Sahib's 1998 Hukumnaama (an edict from the Sikhs' supreme authority and policy-making body), which states that Guru Ji's Saroop must not be taken to a place such as a hotel, hall, banqueting suite, club, pub, bar etc., where full Satkaar (respect) cannot be given to Guru Ji's Saroop in accordance with Sikh Maryada (traditions and customs). Matters in Irvine were further complicated due to the fact that there was a split in the local Sangat. Even though a Gurdwara had been recently established only a mile away from the hall, due to local issues, members of the ASA refused to attend the Irvine Gurdwara. Despite attempts to develop a constructive dialogue with the ASA and with the Glasgow Gurdwara from where Guru Ji's Saroop was brought, a deadlock developed, which lasted for over a month. Satkaar Sevadaars then learned of a planned Diwan at the hall on Sunday 30 January 2011. With Guru Ji's blessings, concerned members of the UK Sangat from across the length and breadth of the UK went to Scotland with the aim of explaining to the members of the ASA, with nimartaa (humility) and love, the reasons why they were so insistent that the scheduled programme should not take place. A meeting between Satkaar Sevadaars, representatives of the ASA and the local Gurdwara members in Irvine was arranged at short notice on Saturday 29 January. Following several rounds of discussions, Guru Ji showered their blessings and the ASA agreed to cancel the planned programme at the hall on Sunday 30 January, and it also agreed that no such future events would take place at the community hall. Satkaar Sevadaars also encouraged the ASA and local Gurdwara members in Irvine to set aside any personal differences and work together collectively for the Chardikalaa of the Khaalsa Panth, and for the full Satkaar of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj. Needless to say, this is an extremely positive outcome and one which has come about by Guru Ji's blessings and the collective unity of the UK Sangat in supporting the Satkaar Campaign, as well as the willingness of the majority of Sikhs in Irvine to set aside any personal differences and to come together as ONE to prevent any sacrilege which might have otherwise occurred. Satkaar Sevadaars' Ardaas (prayer) to Guru Ji is that this spirit of Panthic Ektaa (unity and brotherhood) grows stronger by the day in the local Irvine and UK-wide Sangat. As has been the case in all relevant Gurdwaras with which it has liaised, Satkaar Sevadaars made an offer to assist in Parchaar (propagation of the Sikh faith) and to provide resources and materials to the Sikh community in Irvine. The offer was accepted and the Satkaar Campaign is intending to arrange a Gurmat Camp in Irvine in the near future. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Love you pyaareo please post more often? :waheguru: :happy:

I was going to dissect every single you have written, instead I leave you with the following kUiV kmwxY kUVo hovY nwnk isPiq ivgwis ]3] koorr kamaanai koorro hovai naanak sifath vigaas ||3|| Practicing falsehood [corruption/evil minded deeds], only falsehood [corruption/evil] is obtained. O Nanak, through the Lord's Praise, one blossoms forth [and becomes happy, content]. ||3|| Dear sister, I'm not sure where you are getting your information from but that statement is very very wrong. The mind is never satisfied, gurbani tells us this again and again. Certain, sex is not required for good health because if that were the case all the non-married folks (who abstain from the activity) would always be sick! You can see in the world that this is not the case at all.Guru kirpa karey and you may rise above from the veil of attachment that is covering your eyes so that you can see this person for who they truly are. No one can tell you what is right, but I'm sure almost everyone will agree that the relation you currently have with this person is wrong as per Gurmat.

Mod Note: The follow thread has been allowed to stay up but it does not represent FACT, the poster has specified throughout the response that they obtained this information from a third party and therefore its validity should be taken therefore as such. Personal references have been removed. Lol, One must laugh at the antics of these people who call themselves members of the committee, members of the trustee board, but the most disappointing thing is that they call themselves members of the Sikh Panth. (Mod EDIT) thank you for your speech on Sunday, i was not there to hear it but i heard all about it. Now lets go over a few things: You stood in the hazoori of Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and ordered that you be given time to speak on stage to the Guru Pyari Sadh Sangat, permission given to you due to the fact that you are a Trustee of the Gurdwara. So, i hear you told the Sadh Sangat that none of the Gurdwaras money was spent on the Sikh Cultural Centre. I hear that you claimed that not even one penny was spent. Erm, im coming to the conclusion that your very selective memory only comes into play when suchlike figures pass the £100,000 barrier! So how would you explain the: £60,000 paid FROM THE GURDWARA when the centre was first opened, what inevitably gave the Sikh Community ownership duty. then the £40,000 paid FROM THE GURDWARA to renovate the centre when the Gurdwara was going to be taken there temporarily while the new building was being built. then the £40,000 paid FROM THE GURDWARA when the land was purchased which made it freehold and owned by the Gurdwara? Im not the best at Mathematics Mr Trustee but somehow even my poor addition skills tell me that the actual figure is more than 1 penny!!! Moving on......I hear you claimed that you were not scared of the Singhs, not scared of the protesting sangat, and that you were going to keep the hall open no matter what. And i hear you even labelled the Singhs who write about the goings on as "mice", using the example that Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji stated that his one Sings would be seen in a crowd of a hundred, and how different these people who are "hiding behind the internet are". Erm, please excuse me if i am wrong, but i read the Satkaar letter that was sent to you around a fortnight ago, giving you dates to have meetings. Why have you not arranged a meeting with the singhs who are mice and hide behind the internet you fearless people?!!!!!! Also, I am by no means perfect in any way shape or form, but i wonder what Guru Gobind Singh Ji would be thinking right now, having realised that you went on the stage and spoke untruths to Guru ji's Sadh Sangat in the presence of Guru Maharaj. They are sitting somewhere watching you too my esteemed friend..... Sticking to your "No Fear" stance, why on earth have the committee removed the Sikh Cultural Centre sign from the building?! Is this a desperate plea to the UK Sadh Sangat that everything is ok and can be forgotten, because your Gurdwara premises no longer has the work SIKH on the front of it anymore?!! LOL, dont make me LARFFFFFFFFFFFF!!! The levels to which you drop in order to have parties in your Gurdwara owned building is disgraceful, even taking the word SIkh off the building. Gallan kardeh ah Guru Godind Singh Ji de Singhan diyah.......get real.

i am in a similar dilemma. I havent taken amrit yet, i have seriously been looking into where to go, i mean which rehat maryaada to follow (ofcourse akal takhat saheb, but there are a few minor differences in rehat maryaada which are not possible to be ignored). I usually go to most of the akj smaagams but dont quite agree with raagmaala not being baani. Keski being kakaar doesnt bother me much because i wear a keski too, but dont consider it a kakaar, but i know i will never be without it. However, when i looked into taksaal maryaada. I follow taksaal santheya and do think their rehat maryaada is what the puraatan sikhs followed. But whenever I go to akj smaagams or talk to bibia who follow akj rehat, they try to persuade me to believe that you get 'naam drir' only from akj!!?? so that really confuses me that why dont other jathebandia also give 'naam drir' as well? wouldnt that make it easier for people to take amrit from taksaal or akj, then the difference would only be kes/ keski as kakaar, raagmaala baani/not baani, or moolmantar, atleast not naam drir?? Sometimes i so wish that i didnt know much about the jathebandia and different rehat maryaadas, it was gonna be soo easy for me. but now that i know, its quite confusing. Some unbiased advice would be appreciated.

if you really want to take or retake amrit properly then go to amrit sanchars organised by akj india, akj toronto, or tapoban sahib toronto. Why? because they are the places where there has been unbroken lineage of having larivaar saroop prakshed at amrit sanchar. Unfortunaly though akj uk use larivaar saroop, the punj pyare may have shakked amrit where there was pad ched saroop because in early days akjuk did use pad ched saroops sometimes. The gurgadi was passed onto larivaar saroop guru granth sahib ji. Guru Gobind Singh jee created larivaar saroop and gave gurgadi to that saroop. Padched is actually a modern man made invention. Even if taksalis or whoever starts doing prakash of larivaar saroop at amritsanchars it wont make any difference because the punj pyare still would have taken amrit from pad ched saroop. Think and decide for your self. Also for akj india and tapoban toronto, only strict naam abhiyaais who follow sarbloh bibek can do seva.

Southall Youth, who said anything about Taksal is the purest form of Sikhism?

waheguru je ka khalsa waheguru je ke fateh penjee can you share what they said in terms of rehat plz

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh! I found this discussion very interesting, as my situation is a bit similar to that of the original post. And I found the quoted post as well as that from 'ChupChapiti' Jeo very insightful. Just like 'ChupChapiti' Jeo, I also wander (and am disappointed) that 'Naam Drrir' doesn't happen in any non-AKJ Amrit Sanchars. Hence other than the Nam-Drirr 'incentive' (for the lack of better word!), I totally agree with '11gurusiJot' Jeo. Can anyone throw some light into this VERY IMP aspect of Naam Drirr, becoz sometimes I feel that due to the absence of this during my Amrit Sanchar, perhaps I have missed out on something... Would request and invite Sangat's view on this! Once again, PLEASE NO 'Jatha-bashing'! Bhul chuk maaf! -JP

Sunny, I voted one of your posts down (rated it down) because you go on about your cake being so good without eggs but didnt even post a pic man.

The post sends that signal out ,like there was a topic asking 'taksaal' gurpurab dates and now this and other such topics.It seems as though people think the Akal Takht Sahib's maryada is not enough I mean fair play follow the taksaal maryada no problem but.Lets not make it look like the 'quality' of the final 'product' is better.It makes other Sikhs feel as if they are 'lower',if they ain't a taksali or a follower of taksal maryada

:sad:

The Dudley Gurdwara committee is far from perfect, they make many questionable decisions, and some (meat sharab parties and extension of building) are downright wrong BUT Why are words being thrown around that they get a "buzz off corrupting young children"??? No one gets a buzz off that, they are not some vicious animals or members of other religions who want to destroy Sikhi. Keep the topic to the topic, and that is closing down the meat and sharab parties, ensuring that the building is not extended and making sure beadbi does not take place. When you start throwing around names and accusations that are not true then you dilute the argument. Grow up!

it hurts so i gave u negative too