Cisco_Singh

Not exactly sure how you come to the conclusion that Niddar Singh "slandeers Gurbani" , I dont see any slander of Gurbani. Yes he may have a different belief system than your own belief system, to be honest I dont really know enough about his belief system to comment, I am not a "sanatan" Sikh. Nor am I a member of "Niddars Crew". I have however been to a few classes at his Akhara having studied various other martial arts in my time, I can easily say he is indeed very skilled and has immense knowledge of indo-peersian weaponry and it's usage in the traditional indian warfare system. This is why he has widely been accepted in the martial arts scene amongst masters of various other discipline Pat O Malley (Kali, Escrima), Krishan Godhawamia to name a couple These are not some clown "luloo, punjoos" they are well respected martial artists experts in their field they can spot a fake... As for his belief system, have you ever checked the other Nihang websites such as Nihang singh org etc...these are not affiliated to Niddar yet many of the ideoligy is the same Shiv Shakti, Dharam Yudh, Jhatka, Kshatri Dharam. Rather than do his nindiya I agree, appraoch him directly with your questions, are you scared to do this ? He uses historical evidences to back up some his claims, peices which still exist in britis museums to this day. How do you expalin captured Sikh battle standards with clear imagery of Chandi and Hanuman on them ? Sikh cannons from maharajah Ranjit SInghs artillery with Hanuman pictures on them ? Look up the video on youtube and you can see for yourself "in praise of steel Nihang History - Davinder Toor". Do your own research dont eb scared to ask questions just because it contradicts your own belief system..

There is no lineage to Gatka, it came out of the late 1800 early 1900 british inspired sport similar to fencing or a circus act to impress make money from crowds, this has been spoken about in the writings of Sant Gurubachan Singh Ji Bhindrawale.

Also worth checking the sarbloh site. The folowing directy quoted statement can be found there: " Nihang Niddar Singh, under the supreme command of the Panjvah Takht Shromani Panth Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa 96 Crore Budha Dal Chalda Vaheer, or any of his Shagirds (students), associates who run or contribute to the websites, do not worship any deity but Ekh Nirankar Akal Va-eh Guru, the three Sikh scriptures, Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa Panth (Spiritual Way), Udhasi, Nirmala and Sevapanthi Sikh Panth and the Shastars (traditional weapons employed in Sanatan Sikh Shashter Vidiya).t has to be noted that in accordance with the teachings of the Adi Guru Durbar, we as Sanatan Sikhs do greatly respect Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh (Hindu dieties) etc., as great Bhagats (devotees) of Nirankar (formless) Va-eh Guru. n fact, all who expound and love the truth and the message of universal peace and Ekta (Oneness/brotherhood) we respect and bow our heads in reverence to, be they of whatever faith, race, caste, colour or creed. What we are today, be it a Sikh, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, etc., is all according to the will of Sanatan God. In Adi Guru Durbar, Akali Guru Nanak writes: 'We have no power to speak or stay silent. We have no power to ask or give. We have no power to live or die. We have no power to attain kingdoms, wealth or the fame that is born of them. We have no power for spiritual awakening, or knowledge or thinking. We have no power to know the method by which to attain salvation from the world. He who has this power He alone employs it. Oh Nanak no one is high or low [meaning all are As Va-eh Guru intended them to be].' ('Adi Guru Durbar', Japji Sahib) So to reiterate again for those foolish narrow-minded, biggoted, puritanical Sikh fanatics who only see God in there own narrow-minded perceptions of religion, Niddar Singh Nihang speaks as follows: "I am an Akali meaning 'one who worships one Akal (Immortal God)' and I am a Nihang meaning I have 'no attachment but to one Akal'. I greatly respect the ancient Sanatan Hindu deities as Bhagats of Nirankar God in accordance with ancient Akali Nihang Sikh tradition."

It's not about appreciation yes, it can be appreciated as a circus act to please crowds thats fine. It's when people start referring to Gatka as the traditional combat system and martial art of the Sikhs that a problem arises. It is a very big disrepect and disregard for the skill and fighting techniques mastered by the ancestors to say they used Gatka on the battlefields is laughable... Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Bhindranewale, clearly defines the differences below, quotes from Mangalcharan website: The following passage is from 'Gurbani Paat Darpan' written by Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Bhindranvale. Baba Ji is explaining two forms of vidiya [science/learning], the first being for show and the second being the real vidiya. Baba Ji uses the example of one performing exhibition Gatka as the false vidiya, whereas the real soorma [warrior] vidiya is where there is no show/exhitibtion. From Gurbani Paat Darpan, page 37-38. ----------------------------------------------------------------- ਵਿਦਿੱਆ ਦੋ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਦੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ । There are two forms of 'Vidiya' [science] (੧) ਇਕ ਤਾਂ ਜਿਹੜੇ ਪਟੇ ਬਾਜ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ, ੳਹ ਦਿਖਾਵੇ ਦੀ ਵਿੱਦਿਆ ਪੜ੍ਹਦੇ ਹਨ, ਸਾਰਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣਾ ਕਰਤੱਬ ਦਿਖਾਉਣਾ, ਕਿਸੇ ਦੇ ਮੂੰਹ 'ਤੇ, ਛਾਤੀ, ਪੱਟ ਆਦਿਕ ਤੇ ਆਲੂ ਰੱਖ ਕੇ ਅਤੇ ਅੱਖਾ ਆਪਣੀਆਂ ਬੰਨ੍ਹ ਕੇ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਖੂਬੀ ਇਹੋ ਹੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ, ਜਿਹੜੀ ਚੀਜ ਉਪਰ ਪਈ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ, ਆਲੂ ਪਿਆ ਹੈ ਜਾਂ ਗਾਜਰ, ਜਾਂ ਮੂਲੀ ਪਈ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਕੱਟ ਦਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ ਰੋਮ ਨੂੰ ਛੇਦਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ । ਇਸ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ੳਹ ਕਰਤੱਬ ਦਿਖਾ ਕੇ ਹੁਨਰ ਕਰਕੇ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਖੁਸ਼ ਕਰਕੇ, ਆਪ ਦਾ ਪੇਟ ਤੋਰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਇਹ ਤਾਂ ਪਟੇ ਬਾਜ ਦੀ ਵਿੱਦਿਆ ਹੈ । The first is called Pate Baaz [swinging a stick], that form is done for show, and to display their performance, placing potatos on someones face, chest, back etc and covering their eyes, that is their skills. Whatever is placed on top [of someone], whether it is potatos, carrots, or radish, they cut that without cutting that person. This form [of vidiya] is done to show their own performance and accomplishment in order to make the viewers happy and to fill their own belly's [acquiring money for it], this is the 'vidiya' [science/learning] of Pate Baaz [one who just spins a stick, i.e. Gatka Baaj]. ਏਸੇ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਜਿਹੜੇ ਪੰਡਤ ਵਿਦਵਾਨ ਬਣ ਕੇ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਕਥਾ ਸੁਣਾ ਕੇ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਚਾਰ ਕਰਕੇ ਆਪਣਾ ਜਸ ਪਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਆਪ ੳਹ ਧਾਰਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰ ਸਕਦੇ ਹਨ, ਵਡਿਆਈ ਪਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਪਦਾਰਥ ਪਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ ਪਰ ਆਪ ਧਾਰਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਦੇ, ਲੋਕਾਂ ਵਾਸਤੇ ੳਹ ਗਿਆਨ ਦੀਆਂ ਗੱਲਾ ਸੁਣਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ । ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਪਟੇ ਬਾਜਾਂ ਵਾਲੀ ਵਿੱਦਿਆ ਹੈ । [similar to this] form is a one who becomes a Pandit scholar who performs discourse as preaching to get people to praise him, yet he himself cannot enshrine [what he preaches], he gets them to praise them, and gets material wealth, but he himself cannot attain what he preaches, and still for people preaches sermons of wisdom. That type of vidiya [science/learning] is like that of the Pate Baaj [one who just spins a stick, i.e. Gatka Baaj]. (੨) ਦੂਸਰੀ ਸੂਰਮਿਆਂ ਦੀ ਵਿੱਦਿਆ ਹੈ, ਸੂਰਮਾ ਬਹਾਦਰ ਜੋ ਹੈ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਪਹਿਨ ਕੇ ਜੰਗ ਵਿਚ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜਾਂ ਦੁਸ਼ਮਣਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਸ਼ਹੀਦ ਕਰਕੇ ਜਿੱਤ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜਾਂ ਆਪ ਜੂਝ ਕੇ ਸ਼ਹੀਦੀ ਪਾਉਂਦੇ ਹੈ । The second type of Vidiya [science/learning] is that of a warrior, a courageous warrior adorns weapons and goes to war, giving the enemies martyrdom and attaining victory, or getting martyrdom themselves. ਇਸ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਸੂਰਮਿਆਂ ਵਾਲੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਵਿੱਦਿਆ ਹੈ । ਸੂਰਮਾ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਮਾਰਦਾ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਪਟੇ ਬਾਜ ਕੇਵਲ ਦਿਖਾਵਾ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਤਲੀ ਚੀਜ ਨੂੰ ਤੋੜਦਾ ਹੈ, ਹੇਠਾਂ ਅੰਗਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਨਹੀਂ ਲਗਣ ਦਿੰਦਾ ਅਤੇ ਸੂਰਮਾ ਅਗਿਆਨ ਦੇ ਸਾਰੇ ਅੰਗਾ ਨੂੰ ਛੇਦਨ ਕਰਕੇ ਸਰੂਪ ਸਾਖਿਆਤ ਰੂਪ ਅਨੰਦ ਨੂੰ ਪਾਉਂਦੇ ਹੈ । In this way the way of the warrior is like Brahm Vidiya. A warrior kills with his weapons, where as a Pate Baaj [one who just spins a stick, i.e. Gatka Baaj] merely only does a exhibition, they only break the top [item] and do not hit any limbs. A [real] warrior breaks all the limbs of ignorance and attains great bliss while living in the visible [sargun] form. -----------------------------------------------------------------

Hazur Sahib Maryada is the puratuan traditional maryada kept intact since the time of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji. It's a very good thing Hazur Sahib remains outside punjab and the corrupt influences of the SGPC. These modern day no-gooders with a lack of undertanding about Sikh history following a SPGC British inspired version of Sikhi specifically designed to de-militarise and weaken the soldier spirtit of the Sikhs are the only ones making all the noise and allegations about Hazur Sahib.

That video is just embarrasing. I have never heard of any concept that says people should skake their heads around and move left and right etc..when doing Naam Simram. The people in the video make it look like a scene from a mental hospital with their actions, some people lying on the floor kicking his legs around, other peoples dastaars coming off and wildly shaking their hair around. etc.. Surely Naam Simaram requires conentration, stillness of the mind focus of mental energy. Not acting like a mental patient or a drug addict....

SV a traditional battlefield art form.... of course you would get destroyed if you go up against fighter jets etc ? Thats a ridiculous comment all martial arts would get destroyed against fighter jets and, automated mechanical guns etc. Ok..lets sort a few things out here....SV is NOT a demonstration art for show in tournaments etc...it is a battlefield art form like all pure martial art forms the objective is to immobilise, destroy, kill the enemy swiftly and quickly... i.e "chatka" . How can you demonstarte such art forms in tournaments where all lethal vital point strikes, are banned , and the tournament is govenred by rules ? If you havent seen any videos go to SV website or join the SV facebook group and watch the videos. If various schools of other martial arts are ackowledging the art form and have seen it demonstrated at the Martial Arts Show for the last 3 years..and have recognised it.. what exactly is your argument,..those guys have far more martial knowledge than you do. SV has been covered at least twice in martial arts iillustrated magazine in the UK as well. Do you see any other proper combat art froms in competitions or tournaments ?? Kali,Eskrima,Silat etc ??? The answer is NO because they have no rules they are lethal combat forms not for public enetertainment. Also look into the "hadh torh" challenge this is the traditional form of competition, and anyone is welcome to the SV akharas in the UK to witnesss, ask questions or see demonstrations of the art form. No SV will not make you invincible, nor will any other martial art, For those intrested in learning the traditional combat system of the Khalsa and maintaining heritage they should look into it.

Not sure...I have never been there or dont know of anyone else who has been there. It's actually just outside Coventry on an industrial estate know as "Bayton Road" in Exhall. I think this Gurdware were a split from Ajit Darbar Gurdwara in Coventry. Both of them only have a very small amount of sangat. I have heard rumours of the things you claim happening there.

very easy to find information and places to learn but they are all in the UK. Use Google search for "shastar vidiya" and the very first link has the info your looking for. Obviously if your not in UK then there is not anyone teaching.

Most Sikhs still think swinging sticks around i.e "Gatka" is a martial art...so no chance of them having any knowledge and training on the use of Sri Sahibs...

You do realise that the Vaja (European Harmonium) is NOT a traditonal instrument used in Kirtan or Gurmat Sangeet...it was introduced by the British in the 1800's to make Kirtan sound more like "church choir music/organ etc". You are much better off learning traditional instruments true to the heritage of Kirtan and Gurmat Vichar...Sarangi etc...

I have seen a few of these types of weddings...BUT I have never seen one where any side has converted religion... I.e: Sikh boy marrys hindu girl...but doesnt convert to hinduism, nor does the girl convert to Sikhism... Also seen Sikh girl marrys hindu boy, but the gil doesnt convert, and the ceromy despite being against Rehit Maryada, I have seen take place in a Gurdwara...Others dont get married in a Gurdwara or Mandir and just do a registry marriage.... 99% of these weddings are where the the couple have a love marriage, i.e: they independately met each other and dayed, went out...etc..

If any of you guys ever happen to bump into Nidhar Singh ask him about the fitness regimes of traditional Khalsa warriors, as well aa teaching Shastar Vidiya, he also runs a completely seperate fitness class teaching "Sanjam Kiriya" teaching traditional fitness regimes and exercises. I checked it out a couple of times a lot of bethaks (squats), Daand (indian pressups), various stretches, breathing techniques etc...a lot of emphasis on legs. It's tough ...

Thats a quite harsh and out of context post... Ols School Nihangs also used to do Havans, there is loads of verses in various Sikk Scripture which talks about Devis..Dasam Granth in particular...Chandi Di Vaar etc, There is an important and undeiable link between the martial aspects of Sikhi and the respect for devis (forms of Akaal Purakhs Shakti), Another example is Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Battle Standard held at Hazur Sahib the Asth Bhuja Dhuja. Now I dont personally agree with the Naamdharis ideoligy of continued lineage of Guruship...I think it's completely out of order to misrepresent Guru Gobind Singh Ji's character in the way they have, saying he lived in isolation for several years etcc...They themselves will now begn to struggle as the time gap iuncreases while they wait fot Ram Singh to return...it's already looking more or less impossible, Historically they made a lot of sacrifices during the freedom struggle a lot of Naamdharis became shaheed. They also could teach a fair few mainstream Gyanis a thing or two about Raag Vidiya and Gurmat Sangeet, theyre knowledge of traditional indian classical music and Kirtan is superior to most mainstream gianis. They also do tremendous amounts of Naam Simran and mediation, a lot more than I do and probably more than a fair few members here

The Asth Bhuja-Dhuja, this was the battle standard of Guru Gobin Singh Ji,it it mentioned in Niddar Singhs book " In the The Masters Presence". The book describes how the original owner of the standard is Chandi. The standard along with a Sword were given to Guru Gobind Singh Ji as a gift according to local history.

The show was on the whole very good, and highlighted a lot of good issues. Were a couple of issues though with Sikh Channels handling of the show...At the start they played the 2 video clips in the wrong order with the Shera indident in India so you couldnt tell what was going on. Halfway through the show, the phonelines went down..so callers couldnt call in to the show... There was also a couple of points I didnt really agree..with. They were saying that if Sangat wanted to know about alternative halls to use for functions other than the Gurdwara halls they should ask the Gurdwara commitees (to suggest halls where meat/sharaab etc..is allowed). Why ?? The official line should be..that it's anti Gurmat....dont do it full stop,...If you want to do these activities, find your own resources,,,Commitees or Gurdwaras shouldnt suggest alternative venues either.. Also the Satkaar lot were saying...some commitees were asking them if they cant do partys they loose income...One of the Satkaar guys response was...to build low cost acomodation for students instead... Personaly I think that Gurdwaras should be centres of parchaar...they are not commercial entities and as such should have no intrest in generating income or making profit... Minor points though...on the whole a great discussion and good show..

Quite intresting how this Akali-Nihang Dastaar ended up with a british army regiment badge on it... The vast majority of Akali Nihangs were fiercely anti-british and after the anglo-sikh wars were hunted down and shot by the British for refusing to down ther weapons, during the time weapons were banned in Punjab...a "shoot on sight" policy was adpoted against Akali-Nihangs. They might have maybe stolen the Dastaar from a Nihang who became shaheed fighting against the British, I doubt the wearer was actually fighting for the british regiment,...

Shastar Vidiya has actually got a lot of hands free infact you start from hands free, move onto joint locks, small, join manipulations, breaks, strangulation, grappling, vital point strikes. Weapons comes into it later it's straight to the point dirty fighting, eyes, throat, groin, neck. A proper combat system,..not for sport... This is of course if you go to the correct classes...not the "Gakta" fairy tale classes... Muay Thai is good as well, if you find a good teacher, not the comemrcial rip off crap...toy want prooper, elbow srtikes, knee strikes etc...Why choose ? Go to both Muay Thai and Shastar Vidiya train in both..cross training can only be good.

I dont tie that style of dastaar myself, so im not 100% sure on the full argument, 1 part was with some dastaars the top covering on the skull is very thin sone times just one larr opens and spread across the top of the head and tucked in. so the top of the head is virtually unprotected against danda strikes etc. Dumalla has multiple wraps around this portion of the head is also tighter better protected agains minor strikes, obviously not going to help if yuo get hit on the head with a mace or iron bar though.. Theres also the blade tied into the front which comes into play if anyone tries to grab from the front theyre going to get cut, good for low posture forms where you can rise up from under necks etc and cut throats etc in a battle field mentality. You shpuld ask Niddar Singh if you ever come across him very knowledgable individual..Fair enough certain factions disagree with his religious views...theres no doubting his knowledge of indo persian weaponsry and traditional Khalsa fighting arts though, This is where kickboxing and a lot of western arts fail;..theyre not designed to consider fighting more than one opponent. Theres no concept of 1 vs muliples or formation fighting etc.. I agree.adrenaline rush is difficult to control when you suddenly find yourself in a situation.

Dumaala is 2 dastaars ineffect a smaller kesi type underneath with a larger dastaar tied on top...Theres no point carrying shaastar if you dont have shastar abhiyaas...learn how to defend yourself..starting at hands free combat techniques then move onto weaponry. Im not talking about learning, the waste of time gatka..spin a stick around circus act either...I mean learn a proper art which is street effective... like Kali,Eskrima, Panatukan, Krav Maga etc etc...Shastar Vidiya in it's original form would be the best as taught by Niddar Singh Nihang ...but he is UK based..he teaches specifics like how to protect your dharee if it's grabbed, and also mentions that dumallas tied by nihangs are specifically tied to protect the head from minor blows, etc..Nobody else currently teaches or appears to have full knowledge of the original Shastar Vidiya system...

Yeh, shame they didnt have Nidar Singh in that episode...he has better knowledge of traditional indo-persian wepaonry, how they are applied in warfare etc. They mention Shastar Vidiya in the episode doubt they any real knowledge of the actual art though..they look like glorified Gatka boys. The Katar with retractable blades was awesome though.

SGPC is too influenced by politics..hence is corrupt and untrustworthy...this is why the traditional system should never have been removed. I.E: Up untill 1920's the Jathedar of Akal Takht was always the the Jathedar of Buddha Dal.

If you Google "Vishvakarman" you'll find a detailed article on Wikipedia on who Baba Vishwakarma is... A copy and paste from Wikipedia is below .. Vishvakarma (Sanskrit: विश्वकर्मा viśvá-karman "all-accomplishing; all-creator", Tamil: Vicuvakaruman, Thai: Wisanu-Phrom) is the Hindu presiding deity of all craftsmen and architects.[1] He is believed by Hindus to be the "Principal Universal Architect", the architect who fabricated and designed the divine architecture of the Universe, the Lord of Creation. The Mahabharata describes him as "The Lord of the Arts, Executor of a thousand Handicrafts, the Carpenter of the Gods, the most eminent of Artisans, the Fashioner of all ornaments ... and a great and immortal God..." He has four hands, wears a crown, loads of gold jewellery, and holds a water-pot, a book, a noose, and craftsman's tools in his hands. Vishwakarma is known as the divine engineer of the world. As a mark of reverence he is not only worshipped by the engineering and architectural community but also by all professionals. It is customary for craftsmen to worship their tools in His name. Like other gods, Visvakarma is attributed a putative birthday by the Hindu religion. The more philosophical minded argue that it is impossible for the original Creator of everything to be born on a particular day. It is a contradiction in terms since that presupposes another creator for Visvakarma. Baba Vishwakarma...doesnt have significance in Sikhi, in my opinion....Sikhi recognises one immortal being Akal Purakh who is the creator of the universe and everything it. If you were to relate Baba Viswakarma to Sikhi...the only concept I can think of is that Viskwakarma is a representation / manifestation of the creative skills and powers of Akal Purakh,..

I 've never seen a Baba Vishkarma picture in ay Gudwara or household i've been to...infact I had to Google who Baba Vishkarma is ... If you see this sort of thing in any Gurdwara, take pictures and send them to some influential Sikh organisations or report to SGPC/Akal Takht or discuss it directly with the commitees... Im not from London, dont know if things are different up there...but of any Ramgarhia Gurdwara i've been to in the Midlands (Coventry, Leamington, Birmingham, Leiecester) or up North Leeds i've never seen the Baba Vishkarma stuff you claim...any local in these areas can easily verify this...go the Gurdwaras in question and check for themselves. Like I said anyone cam make claims, I dont see any evidence anywhere to backup any of these claims...I agree bu the way, it's not a good thing...it's nothing to do with Sikhi and such things have no place in Gurdwaras.

Which Ramgarhia Gurdwara have you seen pictures of Baba Vishkarma in, and which Gurdwaras have you heard the apparently modified ardaas in ?? I certainly have never seen or ever heard of any modified ardaas or Baba Vishkarma pictures in any Ramgarhia Gurdwaras...or seen any Baba Viskarma pictures in the houses of any Ramgarhia or Tharkaan families I know of... It's not healthy to spread unfounded rumours which are probably untrue...If they are true then supply the evidence to support the claims and maybe some influential Sikh organisations can open dialogue with the relevant parties to see what they have to say... Personally I think I whole lot of unfounded and untrue rumours are being circulated on this thread as a whole....Im more or less certain, that all these hindu related functions are limited to the function halls of certain Gurdwaras...and they are not advertised by the Gurdwara commitees themselves...They will have definitely hired the halls out to the relevant parties though.