Khalistan

[Manmohan Kaur]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

WOW!!! It's taken me ages to read through the 8 pages on this topic although I must apologise because I skimmed through bits of it as it's a lot to take in at this time of morning.

Hmmm, interesting opinions but I believe that this 'discussion' has become somewhat 'political' and turned into a bit of an arguement on what is and is not going on in India and what has/has not happened and who has done stuff.

I'd like to give my opinion on Khalistan in a different manner to those of you with in depth knowledge, as mine is very limited in comparison.

Firstly I'd like to go back to the beggining of the discussion where the Sarbat Khalsa was introduced. One Veer ji said that it is our duty as Sikhs to obey the Sarbat Khalsa without question. I disagree. Please understand I am not saying that they are wrong or that we shouldn't believe what I am saying is that our Guru's did not believe in blind faith. They taught us to question things because we should understand what we believe and why we believe it therefore Ravinder Ji is right to try and find out their reasons for Khalistan. He should understand those reasons and agree with them to accept the decision. I hope you think this is a fair point?!

Just to clear things up, I do believe in Khalistan, but I also worry about it too!

I really cannot comprehend the majority of Sikhs in India! After the things that have happened both pre and post '84 how can you stand being ruled by the Indian gvt, how you can accept those who shot and urinated on Guru Granth Sahib Ji and if you love Sikhi then GGSJ is your living Guru that is the same as the gvt shooting and urinating on Guru Nanak Dev Ji or any of the other Guru's, how can this be acceptable at any level?!

You are no-one in India. As mentioned before our marriages are not even lawful in India how can you accept the fact that the gvt. does not accept you as a Sikh???

Anyway all that aside (because you have all discussed this is so much depth) I would like you to understand the need for Khalistan in another light, to me the most important light, THE MAINTENANCE AND GROWTH OF SIKHI!!!

Sikhi has so many issues around the world and I will start with India. Pre '84 Sikhi was on the increase however during and after '84 those Sikhs not in India starting finding Sikhi again but those in India were too scared to keep their Sikhi due to persecution.

We may not be in '84 now BUT Sikhi in India has decreased because of '84. Why is it that our Sikhs do not go to the Gurdwara but go to the Mandir, why do they adopt all the Hindu fasts and festivals but fail to go to Gurdwara on sangranth??? Sikhs in India may as well be Hindus. (I talk of the majority not the minority). I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this so I'll stop there with India and move to the UK.

Here there are so many great people that I know of trying to promote Sikhi through Sikh Societies, Camps, Inspiration classes etc. But we have the issue that our parents moved over here and worked constantly to put a roof over our heads and educate us. Not many were blessed enough to be born into an Amrit dhari family so our exposure to Sikhi was minimal and we've been drowned with culture instead of religion: don't wash your hair on tuesday, don't brush the floor on an evening, don't touch your brother's shoes etc etc which has nothing to do with our Dharam so we've had to try and learn for ourselves. So too many kids just went with the flow and became westernised. Cut hair, clubbing, drinking etc because no explained why we should do things written in Sikhi and being educated we weren't prepared to have blind faith. Too many of the youth have let Sikhi go because they have not been strong enough to do the research for themselves they have told their parents where to go about the hair etc because the parents couldn't give good enough explanations.

Those who have learned and try to follow are blessed, I wish we could all be so blessed.

However, then we have another problem!!! The sects!!! Nirankari's, Naamdhari's, Raada Swami's and so many more who have their own 'spin' on Sikhi which I believe is completely anbd utterly wrong!!! They are growing and growing fast, it's getting hard to control. Also you have those nangs who say it is right to have meat in Gurdwara's (not going to go into this but it's wrong!) and take drugs. So these are only a few issues but again you see where i'm going with this.

So next I'll move onto Canada and USA. Hmm this is difficult I have less of a strong opinion but from what i've seen and heard the majority of those who migrate to these countries come so far away from our religion that they don't practise Sikhi in any form. However, so many people who are not born into Sikhi are findin it's beauty and embracing it as their true path (which it is!)

Anyway, getting to the point, Sikhi is falling to pieces with some trying to save it! Khalistan should be the saviour of Sikhi but it so difficult to build Khalistan. Khalistan is to be the City of Sikhs where there is no confusion only true direction.

Ideally it will be a peaceful country where the laws are the beliefs of Sikhi and the schools teach (along with the regular ciriculum) Sikh History, Gurmukhi, Keertan, Shastar Vidya and simply how to be a SantSipahi.

At Amrit Vela the Nitnem would be recited at the Gurdwara as normal but this could be heard from everyone, everywhere in the state through street speakers so that even if you were asleep those sweet sweet words of baani are still touching you and the same with Rehraas Sahib Ji.

Alcohol, drugs and cigarettes would not exist. All those who lived/visted Khalistan and were not Amritdhari would be so moved by the spirituality and the truthful living there that they would be begging to take Amrit and be a part of this truth, this love, this naam, this sewa. We would be free from all others, we can practise how we should we no outside influence.

Can you all see this ideal beauty of Khalistan that I can see, it will draw Sikhs from around the world and inspire them and give them guidance. With our own state we can start positively influencing and liaising with Sikhs outside of Khalistan, as a country through teh sewa of the people, more literature can be produced and messengers sent around the world to show our strayed brothers and sisters how beautiful Sikhi is and what our Waheguru has given us!

The issue should not be why Khalistan but HOW KHALISTAN???

I hope that my ideology is somewhat fitting to other peoples although obviously it is not complete. The problem is how do we get Khalistan and how do we run it. Too many people believe it should be for AmritDhari's only. I believe it will evolve into an all AmritDhari nation through education. Some people believe the law should state that the five K's are essential but again I don't, i believe that education will make this happen on it's own. You have to welcome everyone, embrace thsoe who have strayed or do not know better, guide them and teach them and they themselves will beg for Amrit for naam for truth force it on people and you'll be shooting yourselves int the foot.

Am I not a Sikh because I am not AmritDhari??? I am a Sikh because I am still learning and I thirst for kowledge from my Guru but I am not AmritDhari because my thirst is nowhere near satisfied enough for me to do Guru Gobind Singh Ji any justice by taking His roop as a Khalsa Sikh.

I would like to apologise if I have offended anyone by anything I have written, this was not my intention, I am young and have little knowledge please forgive me as you would your younger sister.

Guru Fateh Ji

[Khalsa_starr]

...We may not be in '84 now BUT Sikhi in India has decreased because of '84...

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and sikhs will continue to decline for a little while as many imigrate to more wealthy countries and some will be killed by others.

Khalistan may bring more problems than we may realise (incresed poverty, more radicals and loss of jobs and infrustucture, and courruption). I'm sure we can handle it ourselves, but we need a "plan" to confront an solve these issues.

[ravindersidhu]

Bhen ji-Manmohan Kaur you have written well

as you say

I really cannot comprehend the majority of Sikhs in India! After the things that have happened both pre and post '84 how can you stand being ruled by the Indian gvt, how you can accept those who shot and urinated on Guru Granth Sahib Ji and if you love Sikhi then GGSJ is your living Guru that is the same as the gvt shooting and urinating on Guru Nanak Dev Ji or any of the other Guru's, how can this be acceptable at any level?!

as much as i know We have a different govt now......

but those performing the above mention action do deserved to be punished... I have heard of saroopa burnt and shot, thats disrespectful enough.. more then we should tolerate.

I have to say, before i started this thread i had no respect for the khalistan movement, but i feel very differently now

the points which have changed my minset about the movement are

Innocent singhs arrest during bluestar still being in Jail

possibility of riots to show us down again

and most of all many ppl remain unpunished which is shameful

if we refer to our history

Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave help to bahadur shah in war against his brothers coz he promised equality for sikhs, and he promised to punish the trynts such as wazir khan of sarhind,

now bahadur shah was the son of aurangzeb.... we all know what all aurangzeb did

but still bahadur shah got help from our Guru ji,

hence we too shld have an open mind

but then ... bahadur shah did not act upon his promise for which Guru ji sent baba banda bahadur to bring the trynts to justice

thats what we shld do,

making of a khalistan ... as my sister Manmohan Kaur has said how khalistan is a greater question then why khalistan...thats exactly how i feel

but once khalistan is made it might not be the way she imagines it,

what if curruption kicks in,

there are many in punjab who live for self-indulgence

hence smmugling of drugs will be there

infiltration from pakistan and india, all this will defame us

we don't dream of it as a democracy ... the panj praye will be the governing body

will be able to find our panj pyrae who are both modern and live by religious virtues. Or will be goverened by religious fanatics who don't approve to any form of moderisation.

what if a bogus guy makes it upto the seat of one of the panj pyare, will be stuck with him until the end of him?

will amritdhari and non amritdhari be treated the same,

if there are ppl of another religion will they have the rights to stand election or anything else?

If not .....how will we answer the world on that?

and the lack of resources, infrastructure, intelligent manpower, warfare technology.

Will khalistan be seen as the sikh version of saudi arabia,

How will forgien nations(tourists or whatever) fell about khalistan where almost every man/woman carries a dagger or sword (thats how they'll see it) will they feel safe

if we think each of us will keep his/her kirpan as a religious symbol which tells us to be selfless in defending others, and not use it over any little dispute that might occur .. we might have to think again

khalistan is a very challenging dream....

[Khalsa_starr]

khalistan is a very challenging dream....

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And dreams can come crashinf down and turn into nightmares, that is why we need unity on this materr, and take the utmost coution of creating khalistan, or face the future problems.

[Manmohan Kaur]

If our Sikhs knew how to unite and would unite the way that the islamic/Pakistani community do then we could have Khalistan anytime we want!

Instead of sticking together, the girls b***h about each other and the guys are gangsta wannabes. (This is the youth I am talking about!)

Unity comes from a solid education and knowledge.

I don't believe Khalistan is a 'dream'. . . dreams are not real. . . Khalistan is our goal! It is to be the savior of the Sikh Dharam and people.

So, Khalsa_starr, how do you think we can get unity and where do we go from here not to get Khalistan but to firstly build the flawless infrastucture of Khalistan???

Someone said something about economy I believe, we must remember that Punjab will be our Khalistan with the Panj (five) aab (rivers). . . Our farmers will no longer be exploited because India will then rely on Khalistan to provide it's agriculture and supply and demand means they will have to pay the proper price for it too!!!

Bhul Chuk Maaf!

Guru Fateh Ji

[Manmohan Kaur]

Oh Ravinder Ji, I forgot to ask you one thing. . . you said that as far as you know the Indian gvt. is different now. . . Hmmm, again I can't comprehend your thinking. . .

IF it is a different gvt. that does not discriminate against Sikhs then why is it that when Manmohan Singh came into power and was told about the attacks on Nankana Sahib he still went into his meetings and did not act on this at all.

In all the years that Nankana Sahib has been in Pakistan all has been well and then you get a Sikh priminister who doesn't even defend his own place of worship!!! Yeah, I can really see how they have changed, NOT!!!

Sorry, but this had to be brought to your attention.

Bhul Chuk Maaf, I am young and anjaan.

Guru Fateh Ji

[Khalsa_starr]

So, Khalsa_starr, how do you think we can get unity and where do we go from here not to get Khalistan but to firstly build the flawless infrastucture of Khalistan???

Guru Fateh Ji

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becasue you will eventually have to think about the infrusttucture at some point. Why not start niw to build it up to good standards. This will also include lessening poverty and building school,a ndn roads and etc. All these things make people feel better and feel that they are part of a good country. If we don't and just leave it them to do it themselves ppl will start asking question on whether it was all worht it to build a khalistan. Infrustructure and econemy is not everything, but these things when well taken care of tend to make ppl feel better about themselves. Its a rather small and overlooked matter by these khalistan groups, however, evem the littlest of issues can come back and hart you.

As for unity, it's not in the forseable future, we also have other more important issues than khalistan right now.

[ravindersidhu]

If our Sikhs knew how to unite and would unite the way that the islamic/Pakistani community do then we could have Khalistan anytime we want!

have muslims/pakis been able to get the kashmir they want??

instead look at what they have done?

and how will we bring the sikhs to that state of oneness

where will be find that leader who will be able to bring that sense of oneness in the sikhs,

as i said in my previous posts sikhs r drifting away, they don't have that zeal..

how will they rediscover that sense of sacrifice

lets take the example of sant bhindranwale,

after i heard his speech i discussed him with my history prof, he said "bhindranwale exploited the sikhs, performed extortions, killed hindu's... he was a terrorist!"

and this guy is not fanatic, thats just the opinion of a common sikh,

there was an escape route built from the akal takht which santji could have used... but he did not, and we regard him as low as a terrorist who killed innocent hindus...

so how will such a community come togeather for a cause they have forgotten, khalistan is nearly forgotten here, they don't talk of it, its regarded anti-national here

what is pakistan doing, they don't have money to eat, they don't have money to restore the wear'n'tear of historic monuments

but they r investing in arms and tanks and what not,

their being togeather hasn't gotten them anything..

[Manmohan Kaur]

I'm sorry, i don't thin I explained myself vey well. . . In the UK the Islamic/Pakistani community are extremely organised. They have the biggest societies, best funding and know how to get what they want.

My reference to being as united as them was those in the UK not Pakistan as a country.

I agree that it will be difficult to find the leaders that will bring inspiration but when you say that khalistan is forgotten/not spoken of in India, you must realise that I never believed that Sikhs in India would build or help us get Khalistan. . . I believe it will be won by the Sikhs outside of India because they are much more passionate about it.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

[Khalsa_starr]

I'm sorry, i don't thin I explained myself vey well. . . In the UK the Islamic/Pakistani community are extremely organised. They have the biggest societies, best funding and know how to get what they want.

My reference to being as united as them was those in the UK not Pakistan as a country.

I agree that it will be difficult to find the leaders that will bring inspiration but when you say that khalistan is forgotten/not spoken of in India, you must realise that I never believed that Sikhs in India would build or help us get Khalistan. . . I believe it will be won by the Sikhs outside of India because they are much more passionate about it.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

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right, because they probbaly don't know how much pain and suffering it might cause. On top of that, with Khalistan having an uncertain future, who will want to live in it? Just take a look at some other countries that have one indapendance, are they doing much better? for the mostcase no.

As for unity, i have always know that the muslim community is a little more organized than some other egions. However, their not perfect.

I think a good start for unity is streamlining Gurdwaras, and replace his silly elections. They often create contraversy and upset indaviduals. If the gurdwaras are under one rule, then it might be easier controling opinion and the way sikhs worship. Also, it could help curb the breakaway factor when someone gets to contrling and demanding. It won't be easy and it would probably take a couple of years to come into effect, but it might have a few good results

Another suggestion, we need to start more private sikh schools in north america and uk. I know of one in Vancouver called Khalsa School. some ppl call it isloation from the world, but look at what happens when out youth mix up with the wrong crowds? Some of our sikh youth don't attend gurdwara as much and some are wannabe gangsters. Private sikh scholls wont solve eveythibng, but it might encourage the youth to be more spirtual awareness.