Where were Nihungs in 1984?

[V]

GurooDaCehla Veer ji, what you have just posted, is tha NOT ninda/slandering oof Someone - whethr or not they have a Ucha Sucha Jeevan - is your post not full of slandering?

While you're at answering MS514's questions, please respond to these as well -

Bhagat Kabeer ji Says -

kbIr BWg mwCulI surw pwin jo jo pRwnI KWih ] 

Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine 

kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi. 

   

qIrQ brq nym kIey qy sBY rswqil jWih ]233] 

no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ||233|| 

tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi. ||233|| 

Doesn't look like BHagat Kabeer ji leaves any Exceptions when saying 'THOSE MORTALS'

So My Question to you is

1 - iS this not a MAHA BEADBI of Guru Gobind SIngh ji - saying that he doens't know ANYTHING of his Jyot?

this makes a contradiction, as IF he's the Jyot then why does he contradict himself?

By Sang that Guru ji allowed beadbi would mean he didn't know ANYTHIGN about his previous/future Jyot -

he knew EVERYTHING, so why would he contradict himself?

2 - Guru Nanak Dev ji says - (Not exact quote) Do not ead anything tha brings Vaikar - Ms514 Veer ji just quoted the consequences of Sukha.

Meaning - EITHER Guru Gobind Singh ji contradicted his own jyot - OR the Nihangs believing in Sukha are making it all up. So Veer ji pelase tell me - which is it?

bhull chukk maaf karni

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[>Bikramjit Singh<]

By the way, it would be prudent to mention that the British were very much into using drugs to suppress any group that would resist them. When conquering China, they spread the use of opium. It could have even been introduced earlier by the Europeans that were invited at the request of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. Keep that in the back of your mind.

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Great points MS514

Especially the drugs one. Wouldn't it be the greatest irony if these Nihangs who keep on calling other Sikhs as british influenced were shown to be addicted to a drug introduced or distributed by the british to pacify them!

GurFateh

Bikramjit Singh

[Gupti]

1) When science has done research on sukha, i has determined that it produces many ill-effects, such as the ones listed below:

"The short-term effects of marijuana can include problems with memory and learning; distorted perception; difficulty in thinking and problem solving; loss of coordination; and increased heart rate. Research findings for long-term marijuana use indicate some changes in the brain similar to those seen after long-term use of other major drugs of abuse. For example, cannabinoid (THC or synthetic forms of THC) withdrawal in chronically exposed animals leads to an increase in the activation of the stress-response system(6) and changes in the activity of nerve cells containing dopamine(7). Dopamine neurons are involved in the regulation of motivation and reward, and are directly or indirectly affected by all drugs of abuse." (http://www.nida.nih.gov/Infofax/marijuana.html)

I highly doubt that these are attributes that any human being wishes to encounter.

I am not qualified enough to give a judgement on the other aspects of your post, but I feel that I do have enough knowledge to counter this argument.

First of all, there is a dearth of information on the Internet on the pro's and cons of cannabis.

Secondly, the link that you gave is from a drug abuse website. Choosing a more scientific, neutral website would have been more appropriate because of the unbiased analysis of canna

bis that would have been undertaken. In contrast, this website presents 'facts' in a negative light to deter people from consuming cannabis.

Thirdly, and most importantly, most studies deal with the effects of smoking cannabis. To those uneducated about cannabis, there is no difference in the mode of consumption. However, smoking cannabis has drastically different effects on the body then drinking cannabis-laced drinks. Firstly, smoking anything is carcinogenic (cancer-causing), eg even a blank piece of paper! Secondly, the 'nasha' is absorbed straight into the blood stream via the aveoli, with no regulatory mechanisms involved (explaining the detrimental effect on the brain suffered by abusers). Thirdly, damage is also caused to the bronchitis giving the traditional smokers cough.

Also, the report quoted from does not explain how much dosage was given to test subjects. I'm lead to believe that sukhaa only contains a small amount of cannabis leaves. And the long-term effects only seemed to draw on withdrawal symptoms of animals who had been 'chronically exposed' to cannabinoid. What this basically means is that they exposed the animals to a high level of a drug found in cannabis over a period of time, building up a dependency on the drug. They then abruptly stopped administering the drug and observed the effects on the animal. (Just a quick aside, but for those who drink tea on a daily basis, do any of you consume more than 5/6 cups a day? If so, try not drinking tea for a couple of days. I think you may find that you are addicted to tea!)

The short-term effect of consuming a dose as small as what is present in sukhaa cannot be compared to the effects given above, as they deal with abuse and not use.

In all things, the key is use, not abuse.

I'm not 100% sure Bikramjit, but I was lead to believe that marijuana was banned by the British in India because they had heavily invested in the cotton trade in the America

s? Marijuana can be used to make hemp products that are by far superior to many of their competitor products. Also, alcohol and tea could be taxed freely by the British, but marijuana plants were out of British control because they grew everywhere.

Regards

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

"Thirdly, and most importantly, most studies deal with the effects of smoking cannabis. To those uneducated about cannabis, there is no difference in the mode of consumption. However, smoking cannabis has drastically different effects on the body then drinking cannabis-laced drinks."

Gupti Ji, that is a very fair point...that the site points to the inhaled marijuana. But, there is a pharmaceutical product that works on the active ingredient of marijuana, called Dronabinol. This is an oral preparation (in capsule form). Its side effects are still similar:

"This medicine may cause some people to become drowsy, dizzy, or lightheaded, or to feel a false sense of well-being. Make sure you know how you react to this medicine before you drive, use machines, or do anything else that could be dangerous if you are dizzy or are not alert and clearheaded .

Dizziness, lightheadedness, or fainting may occur , especially when you get up suddenly from a lying or sitting position. Getting up slowly may help lessen this problem. "

(Not ideal on the battlefield).

"Side Effects of This Medicine

Along with its needed effects, a medicine may cause some unwanted effects. Although not all of these side effects may occur, if they do occur they may need medical attention.

Check with your doctor as soon as possible if any of the following side effects occur:

Less common (may also be signs of overdose)

Amnesia (memory loss); changes in mood; confusion; delusions; feelings of unreality; hallucinations (seeing, hearing, or feeling things that are not there); mental depression; nervousness or anxiety; fast or pounding heartbeat

Sy

mptoms of overdose

Being forgetful; change in your sense of smell, taste, sight, sound, or touch; change in how fast you think time is passing; constipation; decrease in motor coordination; drowsiness (severe); dryness of mouth (severe); false sense of well-being; fast or pounding heartbeat; feeling dizzy or lightheaded, especially when getting up from a lying or sitting position; feeling sluggish; mood changes; panic reaction; problems in urinating; redness of eyes; seizures; slurred speech; unusual drowsiness or dullness

Other side effects may occur that usually do not need medical attention. These side effects may go away during treatment as your body adjusts to the medicine. However, check with your doctor if any of the following side effects continue or are bothersome:

More common

Clumsiness or unsteadiness; dizziness; drowsiness; false sense of well-being; nausea; trouble thinking; vomiting

Less common or rare

Blurred vision or any changes in vision; dryness of mouth; feeling faint or lightheaded, especially when getting up from a lying or sitting position; flushing of face; restlessness; unusual tiredness or weakness "

(Again, not desirable on the battlefield).

(Source: http://web1.drugs.com/xq/cfm/pageID_0/htm_...ndex.htm#SXX18)

"And the long-term effects only seemed to draw on withdrawal symptoms of animals who had been 'chronically exposed' to cannabinoid. "

Ask an alcoholic how much they started with, and they will usually tell you a very small amount. However, it becomes a solution to life's problems after a while and the dosage increases more and more. Could this not occur with marijuana, which has shown to induce at least psychological addiction by it making the user feel good?

"In all things, the key is use, not abuse."

Then the core question comes out...Why? Why ev

en take marijuana in the first place? Seeing that it can cause the effects above, why would a warrior want to take such a drug even in small quantities? There stands no reason unless the Nihangs are very prone to nausea, which is what the drug above is designed for. Why would Guru Sahib, the bestower of that Amrit that turned the dirt of the earth to Kings, need to add a drug to his Sikhs' life? When Guru Sahib shunned alcohol and tobacco (mind you, which have medicinal properties too), why would he condone marijuana?

Answer this question and why Guru Sahib would ever condone the usage of a drug almost recreationally, and its use might have a foot to stand on (though not a very stable one).

[jagjit_waheguru]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Pyare jio, just for the sangats reference. The person who has made the Uk nihangs sites is Jagdeep Hounslow, and not Jagjit. Please do not give us Jagjits a bad name. It is bad enough having to constantly hear references to Jagjit Singh Chohan, Indian Govt agent.

Also the story about the four nihnags on each door at Darbar sahib in 1984 is false. The darbar sahib was stormed, and singhs fought room by room. None of the eye witness accounts ever mention any nihangs at gates, from Indian Govt side or Singhs version of events. Also everyone fought with guns and bullets, not swords. It just seems to be another made up story which people forward and makes it to some website.

Bhai Avtar Singh Brahma was an amazing Gursikh, and was known in his area as the modern Robin Hood. He wore Gursikhi bana was not linked to nihang dals. He was head of the Khalistan Liberation Force.

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[Gupti]

Apologies ms514, I forgot all about this thread.

The side effects that you quoted for Dronabinol will no doubt hold true for some people.

Dizziness, lightheadedness, or fainting may occur , especially when you get up suddenly from a lying or sitting position. Getting up slowly may help lessen this problem. "

(Not ideal on the battlefield).

Singhs won most of their battles 'under the influence' of sukhaa, and still came out victors.

Symptoms of overdose

Being forgetful; change in your sense of smell, taste, sight, sound, or touch; change in how fast you think time is passing; constipation; decrease in motor coordination; drowsiness (severe); dryness of mouth (severe); false sense of well-being; fast or pounding heartbeat; feeling dizzy or lightheaded, especially when getting up from a lying or sitting position; feeling sluggish; mood changes; panic reaction; problems in urinating; redness of eyes; seizures; slurred speech; unusual drowsiness or dullness

Overdose! The key is use not abuse.

Other side effects may occur that usually do not need medical attention. These side effects may go away during treatment as your body adjusts to the medicine. However, check with your doctor if any of the following side effects continue or are bothersome:

More common

Clumsiness or unsteadiness; dizziness; drowsiness; false sense of well-being; nausea; trouble thinking; vomiting

Less common or rare

Blurred vision or any changes in vision; dryness of mouth; feeling faint or lightheaded, especially when getting up from a lying or sitting position; flushing of face; restlessness; unusual tiredness or weakness "

(Again, not desirable on the battlefield).

I rarely drink tea or coffee, but if I was to consume 8 or 9 cups of strong tea in one sitting I am sure that there will be a noticable effect on my brain. This is because tea is a drug, and it will affect the brain in some manner. However, if I was a regular tea drinker than the effects of 8 or 9 cups would rapidly diminish.

Different people will inevitably suffer different reactions to sukhaa.

Ask an alcoholic how much they started with, and they will usually tell you a very small amount. However, it becomes a solution to life's problems after a while and the dosage increases more and more. Could this not occur with marijuana, which has shown to induce at least psychological addiction by it making the user feel good?

Addiction to marijuana and alcohol occurs in those that abuse it for their own pleasure. Very often there is an underlying cause that triggers the de

pendancy on the drug. If a person drinks one glass of wine a year, they cannot be put in the same bracket as someone who drinks a bottle of vodka a day.

"In all things, the key is use, not abuse."

Then the core question comes out...Why? Why even take marijuana in the first place? Seeing that it can cause the effects above, why would a warrior want to take such a drug even in small quantities? There stands no reason unless the Nihangs are very prone to nausea, which is what the drug above is designed for. Why would Guru Sahib, the bestower of that Amrit that turned the dirt of the earth to Kings, need to add a drug to his Sikhs' life? When Guru Sahib shunned alcohol and tobacco (mind you, which have medicinal properties too), why would he condone marijuana?

Answer this question and why Guru Sahib would ever condone the usage of a drug almost recreationally, and its use might have a foot to stand on (though not a very stable one).

You have only quoted from sources that look at the effects of overconsumption of marijuana. You spoke about marijuana being found in medicine yet you still ask why take marijuana in the first place. Why add a drug to his Sikhs life? What about the countless drugs that are consumed by all Sikhs across the globe? Paracetomol, Ibuprofen, Aspirin, Amoxcylin, Tea, Caffeine, etc, etc.

Oveconsumption of all these goods has adverse effects on the body, yet we still consume them in educated doses.

A lot of the ideas presented here work on the misconception that all people suffer the same effects as each other. Different people have different tolerance levels.

Also, the evidence provided is from other parts of world where cannabis is consumed in a different manner. If you want to know the effect

of sukhaa on a Nihang then you must concentrate on studies where marijuana is consumed in a drink only.

If a Sikh was to stab an innocent person with his Kirpan, then there would be an uproar in the Western world on why Sikhs are allowed to carry 'knives'(sic). All Sikhs would then be judged by the actions of a person who could not control himself. In the same way, the misconception here is to judge the whole by the actions of a few. ie to judge those who use sukhaa based on those who abuse it.

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

First, let me just state that I am educated as a Pharmacist and my career is one dealing with medications. Why is this important? While being educated in Pharmacy, it becomes clear to the students through their education that EVERY drug that is taken will produce its side effects. You will note the section that states that states more common side effects...sections like this in literature point to side effects that occur in almost every patient, with VERY rare exceptions. Browsing that section, you find these:

"More Common

Clumsiness or unsteadiness; dizziness; drowsiness; false sense of well-being; nausea; trouble thinking; vomiting."

Meaning that almost every person who takes this drug will experience at least one of these side effects, if not multiple.

If this are common side effects, of which at least one which will affect the user, and not desirable to combat, then why take it? Not a SINGLE benefit to taking sukha has ever been listed by any pro-sukha person, apart from it is "Puratan" (which is not arguement at all).

Now, you mentioned this:

"'These side effects may go away during treatment as your body adjusts to the medicine.' However, if I was a regular tea drinker than the effects of 8 or 9 cups would rapidly diminish."

True, but that is how addictions and more severe side effects occur as well. As the brain adjusts to the constant exposure to a base level of a drug, it also adjusts to the "high" that the drug produces as well. This is not appealing to the brain, as it does not get as good of a "high" anymore. The brain (through what is labeled a psychological dependence) will then crave more and more d

rug, leading to higher and higher dosing. So while there comes a tolerance for the high that is produced, it pressures the person to consume more and more of the drug. At the same time, it does not mean that the side effects become more and more tolerable. The side effects actually begin to build on each other and become more and more severe. Therefore the symptoms of overdose listed are actual side effects of a long time sukha user whose body requires a very high dose to get that high.

"Singhs won most of their battles 'under the influence' of sukhaa, and still came out victors. "

The earliest reference that has been made available to me states that sukha, at its earliest was around in the times of Maharaja Ranjit Singh, as evidenced by Rattan Singh Bhangoo's reference that is supposedly quoted at the Snatan websites. Can you provide me with any references before then, as that is when the Sikhs were actually doing most of the fighting? I am looking for a reference from the Guru Period up to the reign of Ranjit Singh and that would be most appreciated. Reason is because a vast amount of conflict took place before the establishment of the Punjab Raaj, and yet no statement has been presented that details the consumption of sukha before the times of Ranjit Singh, AFTER much of the conflict.

"You have only quoted from sources that look at the effects of overconsumption of marijuana. You spoke about marijuana being found in medicine yet you still ask why take marijuana in the first place. Why add a drug to his Sikhs life? What about the countless drugs that are consumed by all Sikhs across the globe? Paracetomol, Ibuprofen, Aspirin, Amoxcylin, Tea, Caffeine, etc, etc. Oveconsumption of all these goods has adverse effects on the body, yet we still consume them in educated doses."

Marinol (the oral medication) is used for preventing nausea in chemotherapy patients. That is its indication as a medication and is prescribed after evaluation by a physician. Do Nihangs have s

ome problem with nausea (the indication for marinol) or some other ailment that they insist on taking this on a regular basis? You have listed a lot of other medications above. Each is prescribed after evaluation of a disease state by either a physician or an individual (such as a headache) and taken accordingly for that indication. What indication is sukha being taken for? Is there some disease state inherent with becoming a Nihang that every Nihang must take sukha?

And the statement about educated doses: Take the drug Aspirin in a headache. People will take it for headaches. Those who are prudent in its use will take it only when they have a moderate-severe headache to abort the pain they are suffering. However, there are people who insist on medicating every little headache they get. This leads to a chronic usage, which leads to tolerance and taking of higher doses and has been shown to actually cause headaches after the chronic use. A person caught in this will take higher and higher doses of Aspirin to get the same relief (even though their taking of aspirin might be inducing the headache itself) and they end up with a severe stomach ulcer and may even die from stomach bleeding. Why did I go and give this lengthy example? Because it shows how a common drug that is relatively safe (though NOT for kids) can spiral out of control to cause severe problems. Now substitute sukhs, which is a known drug of abuse with documented side effects, and the picture can be much worse.

"If a Sikh was to stab an innocent person with his Kirpan, then there would be an uproar in the Western world on why Sikhs are allowed to carry 'knives'(sic). All Sikhs would then be judged by the actions of a person who could not control himself. In the same way, the misconception here is to judge the whole by the actions of a few. ie to judge those who use sukhaa based on those who abuse it. "

The idea of the Kirpan has been laid down by the Guru Sahib. It is a required, essential, and more importa

ntly, the Hukam of Guru Sahib. Its purpose is known and it is the standard by which we can judge the actions of that Sikh to be improper or not. Where did Guru Sahib say to take sukha?

The bulk of this arguement about side effects and addiction is just a dance around the main issue, which is exactly where did Guru Sahib tell his Sikhs that taking Sukhs was okay? Nihangs themselves believe (according to the Snatan website) that tobacco is bad, and yet have no qualms about taking sukha. ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF has been provided that the Guru Sahiban ever condoned its use. NO HUKAMNAMA is present that states to the Sikhs that sukha is okay to consume (why in capital?...because that is the only evidence that can validate the use of sukha and no other...no matter how respected a historian Rattan Singh Bhangoo and others are, they are NOT Guru Sahib).

So let's get to the real issue now. Prove that Guru Sahib stated that sukha is okay for a Sikh to consume (as Nihangs are Sikhs, the same hukamnamas and edicts apply to them as well right?). Then we have something real to discuss.

[Deep Singh]

Hey...Bhangoo doesn't that he also drank bhang....if he was from Bhangi misl...he sure did...because that misl did use Bhang, that is why they got that name. There is one reference to Bhang between Ranjit Singh's time and Guru Period, if that is right.

[Gupti]

So let's get to the real issue now. Prove that Guru Sahib stated that sukha is okay for a Sikh to consume (as Nihangs are Sikhs, the same hukamnamas and edicts apply to them as well right?). Then we have something real to discuss.

Dasam Guru Granth sahib - composition- Hikayat...

The English Translation of the last stanzas of all the Hikayats

Hikayat 2:

(The poet says),

`Oh Saki, the bartender, give me the cup full of green (liquid),

`Which I may need at the time of struggle,(60)

`And give me this so that at the time of assessment,

`I may commence the use of my sword.(61)(2)

Hikayat 3:

(The poet says),

"Oh! Saki, bring me the cup full of eyes-exhilarator,

Which restores the youthful vigour in a hundred year old.(57)

Hikayat 4:

(The poet says),

`O, Saki, Give me the cup full of green (liquid),

Which I need at the end of the long day.(140)

Give me so that my heart brims with freshness,

And fetches the pearls out of the depleted soil.(141)

Hikayat 5:

(The poet says),

`Oh! Saki, Give me the cup full of green (liquid),

`Which I need at the time of my nourishment.(50)

`Give it to me so that I can contemplate,

`As it kindles my thought like an earthen-lamp.'(51)(5)

Hi

kayat 6:

(The poet says),

`Oh! Saki. Give me green wine to drink,

Because the Master is intelligent enough, and is known all over.(42)

`Saki! Give me the cup full of greenish (liquid),

"Which soothes during the wars and the lonely nights."(42)

Hikayat 7:

(The poet says,)

`Oh! Saki. Give me green wine to drink,

`Because the Master is intelligent enough, and is known all over.(48)

`Saki! Give me the cup full of greenish (liquid),

`Which soothes during the wars and the lonely nights.'(49)

Hikayat 8:

(The poet says,)

`Oh the Saki, give me my green cup,

`So that without any infringement, I get the understanding.(43)

`And give me the cup full of green (liquid),

`Which helps to destroy the enemies.(44)(9)

Hikayat 9:

(The poet says,)

`Oh the Saki, give me my green cup,

`So that without any infringement, I get the understanding.(43)

`And give me the cup full of green (liquid),

`Which helps to destroy the enemies.(44)(9)

Hikayat 10:

(The Poet says),

`Oh, Saki, give me the cup full of green liquid,

`So that I may keep the secret enshroud.(178)

`Oh Saki! Give me the greenish wine of Europe,

`Which I may need on the day of war.(179)(10)

Hikayat 11:

(The Poet says),

`Give me the cup full of liquidised poppy-husk,

`Which may help me at the time of struggle.(59)

`Also it is reliable to beat the enemy.

`Even one sip of this makes one feel like an elephant.'(60)(11)

Hikayat 12:

(The poet says),

`Oh! Saki, Give me the cup full of green (liquid),

`Which I need at the time of struggle.(20)

`Fill it up to the brim, so that I can drink it every time,

`And forget the afflictions of both the worlds.(21)(12)

[Guest SikhForLife]

good stuff here..

SGGS = Guru.. i dun understand why those fake nihangs try to justify using other sources