Langar Hall = Tables And Chairs?

[sahib singh]

we need to stop this

[N30S1NGH]

Ross Stret Gurudwara run by corrupted people by winning elections by cheating. Vheating by getting hindus and atheists to vote for them.

111510[/snapback]

why always blame hindus for impotent sikh leadership mr another parnoia sikh?

[Mahavir]

Ross Stret Gurudwara run by corrupted people by winning elections by cheating. Vheating by getting hindus and atheists to vote for them.

111510[/snapback]

why always blame hindus for impotent sikh leadership mr another parnoia sikh?

111572[/snapback]

he's not blaming hindus, he's blaming the impotent leaderrship for getting hindus to vote.

it's not paranoia, this stuff really does happen!!

[sahib singh]

I JUST CAME BACK FROM VANCOUVER. YOUR SAYING THAT JUST ROSS STREET HAS SHOES AND TABLES AND CHAIRS IN THE LANGAR HALL. YEAH RIGHT!! EVEN AKALI SINGH GURDWARA HAS TABLE AND CHAIRS AND SHOES. EVEN GURU NANAK SIKH TEMPLE HAS SHOES AND CHAIRS AND TABLES IN THE LANGAR . WHAT DOESNT THE SGPC DO SOMETHING!!!

OR THE SANGAT OF DASHMESH DARBAR.

[Kharkoo4Life]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

Whether one sits on a chair and uses tables to eat langar or chooses to sit on the floor without them makes no difference. Langar is langar regardless of the format in which one chooses to eat it. The concept of Pangat is based on equality for all, and has absolutely no relation as to how the people choose to eat the food.

On a side note, the majority of gurdwaras today are run by committees who all have at least some members who display many corruptive behaviours. This is true regardless if the gurdwara chooses to use tables or sit on the floor. The thought processes and motives behind most gurdwara caretakers tends to be vested in selfish needs over the wellbeing of the collective panth.

Sincerely

[Akal Warrior]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

Whether one sits on a chair and uses tables to eat langar or chooses to sit on the floor without them makes no difference.  Langar is langar regardless of the format in which one chooses to eat it.  The concept of Pangat is based on equality for all, and has absolutely no relation as to how the people choose to eat the food.

On a side note, the majority of gurdwaras today are run by committees who all have at least some members who display many corruptive behaviours.  This is true regardless if the gurdwara chooses to use tables or sit on the floor.  The thought processes and motives behind most gurdwara caretakers tends to be vested in selfish needs over the wellbeing of the collective panth.

Sincerely

145196[/snapback]

but...Akal Takht Sahib has issued a Hukamnama saying that Langar is not be eaten on tables and chairs (in 1997 or 1998). So we must follow that.

[Kharkoo4Life]

but...Akal Takht Sahib has issued a Hukamnama saying that Langar is not be eaten on tables and chairs (in 1997 or 1998).  So we must follow that.

145197[/snapback]

True, the Akal Takhat did issue such a notice but a few points need to be understood and made aware:

1. a hukamnama is not a simple little question and answer letter dealing with every little problem in our life but deals with only those matter of importance to the entire collective panth. Only ssues which apply to the whole panth and are of central importance to the sikhi sidhaant are justified in being decreed as official hukamnamas. Local matter of only local importance are deal thru a process known as gurmatas.

2. the issue of tables/chairs vs floor is not one such issue. Such a matter is a local cultural matter and not a central religios matter. e.g. in punjab majority of ppl wore kurtay pajamay for centuries but living in western world many sikhs adopted pants, shirts and ties clothing. Neither effects one spirituality and neither is against any principle of gurmat. Similarly, most ppl in india always have eaten on floor vs most ppl in west eating on tables/chairs. Again neither of these two effects one spirituality and neither is against any sikhi sidhaant.

3. there is a clear proper method in which hukamnams are issued. The question/problem is brought to the attention of the akal takhat and this problem is then discussed by a panel of scholars, gyanis, historians, jathedars (i.e. experts on sikhi). After thoroughly discussin the whole matter, the pros and cons of all possible solutions, the final decision is taken based on the teachings of Sri guru granth sahib by the entire panel as a unanimous whole. No one person has the authority to issue a hukamnama applicable to the entire panth.

4. the method employed in the issuing of the hukamnama regarding the tables n chairs issues violated every possible step. Not only was it a moot issue which shouldnt have been handled in the manner in which it was, the final decision was reached in a very single-handed authoritarian manner. There was a great deal of deception, selfish motives and physical pressure used in both the raising of this issue and the final issuing of the hukamnama. (i will not get into all that now, but if one is interested i will be happy to elaborate later)

5. Any decision reached which violates the very spirit in which the hukamnama is to be issued and is not based on gurmat is not to be followed by a Sikh. A sikh is to follow only the guru, and the guru khalsa panth is authorized to act on BEHALF OF THE GURU and only so if it does so according to gurmat. But if the panth does not act according to the spirit and value system of the Guru, be it the entire panth or only a few members of that panth, whatever decision that party reaches can not be regarded as the decision of teh guru.

As proof of this, there have been multiple hukamnamas issued in the past by selfish, powerhungry "jathedars" and "gyanis" from Akal Takhat in past which were later challenged by devout sikhs and overturned. A prime example of this is the hukamnama excommunicating Prof Gurmakh Singh, one of the most learned, insightful and devoted sikhs of the past century, who has probably done more lasting and meaningful sewa for the panth in his short lifespan than most others cud ever dream of. Prof Gurmukh Singh was "excommunicated" form the panth and declared a tankhayia solely because he spoke out against those at akal takhat who were engaged in lies and cheating. It was not until 100 years later (sadly long after his death) that this hukamnama was officially declared to be "wrong" and revoked.

[Akal Warrior]

but...Akal Takht Sahib has issued a Hukamnama saying that Langar is not be eaten on tables and chairs (in 1997 or 1998).  So we must follow that.

145197[/snapback]

True, the Akal Takhat did issue such a notice but a few points need to be understood and made aware:

1. a hukamnama is not a simple little question and answer letter dealing with every little problem in our life but deals with only those matter of importance to the entire collective panth. Only ssues which apply to the whole panth and are of central importance to the sikhi sidhaant are justified in being decreed as official hukamnamas. Local matter of only local importance are deal thru a process known as gurmatas.

2. the issue of tables/chairs vs floor is not one such issue. Such a matter is a local cultural matter and not a central religios matter. e.g. in punjab majority of ppl wore kurtay pajamay for centuries but living in western world many sikhs adopted pants, shirts and ties clothing. Neither effects one spirituality and neither is against any principle of gurmat. Similarly, most ppl in india always have eaten on floor vs most ppl in west eating on tables/chairs. Again neither of these two effects one spirituality and neither is against any sikhi sidhaant.

3. there is a clear proper method in which hukamnams are issued. The question/problem is brought to the attention of the akal takhat and this problem is then discussed by a panel of scholars, gyanis, historians, jathedars (i.e. experts on sikhi). After thoroughly discussin the whole matter, the pros and cons of all possible solutions, the final decision is taken based on the teachings of Sri guru granth sahib by the entire panel as a unanimous whole. No one person has the authority to issue a hukamnama applicable to the entire panth.

4. the method employed in the issuing of the hukamnama regarding the tables n chairs issues violated every possible step. Not only was it a moot issue which shouldnt have been handled in the manner in which it was, the final decision was reached in a very single-handed authoritarian manner. There was a great deal of deception, selfish motives and physical pressure used in both the raising of this issue and the final issuing of the hukamnama. (i will not get into all that now, but if one is interested i will be happy to elaborate later)

5. Any decision reached which violates the very spirit in which the hukamnama is to be issued and is not based on gurmat is not to be followed by a Sikh. A sikh is to follow only the guru, and the guru khalsa panth is authorized to act on BEHALF OF THE GURU and only so if it does so according to gurmat. But if the panth does not act according to the spirit and value system of the Guru, be it the entire panth or only a few members of that panth, whatever decision that party reaches can not be regarded as the decision of teh guru.

As proof of this, there have been multiple hukamnamas issued in the past by selfish, powerhungry "jathedars" and "gyanis" from Akal Takhat in past which were later challenged by devout sikhs and overturned. A prime example of this is the hukamnama excommunicating Prof Gurmakh Singh, one of the most learned, insightful and devoted sikhs of the past century, who has probably done more lasting and meaningful sewa for the panth in his short lifespan than most others cud ever dream of. Prof Gurmukh Singh was "excommunicated" form the panth and declared a tankhayia solely because he spoke out against those at akal takhat who were engaged in lies and cheating. It was not until 100 years later (sadly long after his death) that this hukamnama was officially declared to be "wrong" and revoked.

145203[/snapback]

Who are we to say what is a cultural or religious matter? We don't sit on benches in Darbar, but in churches they do. We can't say that in canada it is a custom to sit on benches...there are religious differences...and these differences are not to be bent just to fit in with the country's culture. We sit on the ground to eat Langar as a sign of humility and respect to the Sacred Food.

[FaujKaur]

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa!

Vaheguru Ji Ke Fateh!

I say people who do want to sit on the floor and eat Guru Ji’s lungar have no respect for Guruji, they are plainly lazy. I am shocked that today, especially with all the knowledge we have about our history and teachings, people still make a debate for tables and chairs in the gurdwara. What’s next? Are we going to allow people go into the Gurdwara without having their head covered, because a woman is lazy to put on a chunni on her head, and a man is to lazy to find a decent ramal/turban to tie on his head?

I understand what you’re saying about people dressing in different ways in India and then changing once they came to Canada, but this is our Gurdwara. There should be expectations, and as a child of the Guru you should be obligated to reach these expectations no matter what the circumstances are.

I as well want to add that you are right, although I’m not an expert on corrupt leaders or organizations, reading the news helps me understand that no organization or man is perfect. So when you raise the point, “There have been multiple hukamnamas issued in the past by selfish, powerhungry "jathedars" and "gyanis" from Akal Takhat in past which were later challenged by devout sikhs and overturned,” I really can’t say anything to that statement. But, it’s a matter of respect, and having will power to achieve the best you can be. And when people sit on tables and chairs in the gurdwara, they just look lazy and completely ignorant to what is happening around them.

If you attend the gurdwaras that have tables and chairs, no one is really doing anything to become spiritual or to be a better Sikh. Lungar is made and served with shoes on and some cases without having their head covered. This is the same lungar that had ardass done to it. When you receive degh from the Baba ji, is he walking around in his shoes and handing it out? No, he is not. Now are you honestly going to say, just because in Canada, it’s a norm to eat food without your head covered, and to make your food with shoes on, i.e. in a restaurant setting, that in a Gurdwara we should allow that too? If you are thinking that, then your just part of that group who are lazy and ignorant.

I can’t talk on behalf of the Canadian sangat, but I am aware attempts were made to stop these problems. However, the sangat in Canada has spilt up, one group who achieves to Guruji’s expectations night and day, and another group who rationalizes their beliefs and actions on modern customs of the country they have moved too.

Treat the gurdwara with respect, it’s the home that the Guruji created for us, to receive blessings, understandings, and support for our families and friends. Just because we have moved to a country that is advance in it’s time, we shouldn’t forget about our history and teachings. The main objective of our Guruji’s teaching is to be humble, stay grounded, and to respect the Guruji with high admiration. So when we talk about changing the gurdwara and it’s surrounding we are just letting norms of our new founded country to get into our minds. We can’t think for ourselves no more, we look at what happens else where, and we want to be like that.

You want to be modern, you want to sit on tables and chairs, because sitting on the ground makes your legs hurt, then maybe, it’s time to think about really, what stage are you in according to your spiritually with Sikhi. If I have offended anyone in make this statement, then I am sorry.

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa!

Vaheguru Ji Ke Fateh!

[Kharkoo4Life]

Fateh,

With all due respect to both the previous posters, i am no way condoning anyone to disprespect the guru or the gurdwara asthaan.

With regards to the comments that one wants to sit one table n chairs simply cuz their lazy i think that is a gross generalization. I agree many people wish to sit on chairs simply cuz they are lazy but this is by no means true for everyone who sits on chairs and at the same point there are many who sit on floor simply to prove and show to others how "respectful" they are of the Akal Takhat maryada. I am not sayin one side is better than the other, in fact both sides are full of hypocrites. For instance, i have seen countless young men and women, who neither recite bani nor have even the slightest part of bana, another words follow almost none of the panthic maryada yet when it comes to langar they rush for a spot on the floor cuz they wish to prove how respectful of the maryada they are. Sadly, this split which is unneeded has become a key point for many ppl to asses another person level of spirituality and pyaar for sikhi. Have we fallen so low that we are now going tojudge a persons spirituality by whether he or she chooses to eat on floor vs. chairs?

As for my stage in sikhi spiritually i do not consider myself higher than anyone, nor do i consider others below me. Our true stage is known only by the guru and waheguru.

WIth regards to langar issue it is no issue to begin with. I sympathize with your points that many people today do not have much respect for the guru but how does eating langar on tables show any increased respect? You can not use the example of degh in the darbar hall cuz in the darbar hall there is parkash of guru granth sahib ji, and in langar hall there is not. So obviously in darbar hall everyone is expected to show the appropriate respect. That being said if some elderly person suffering from advanced arthritis, other skeletal problems or even some sort of paralysis, one shud not discriminate against them if they are more comfortable sittin in chair or wheelchair. Why shud they be put to any sort of unecessary discomfort? Now obvsiously this doesnt mean that everyone shud go sittin on chairs simply cuz its easier, but the point is to show that sometimes we take these "traditions" to the extreme.

Please think with a logical mind. I am in no way attempting to "modernize" sikhi or change the fundamental principles of sikhi sidhaant. But it seems that the majority of talk. arguments that occur in the sikh panth have to do with traditions and how we shud not break them. This is fyne and shud be followed but one must be able to differentiate between cultural and religious traditions. Cultural traditions are ever changing as society changes and evolves that is why guru granth sahib does not contain a list of cultural do's and dont's. THis has been left up to the individual and collective panth to decide on their own respectively. Such things include types of clothes to wear, mode of transportation, what foods to eat, what language to speak etc. Religious traditions on the other hand are based on fundamental eternal principles of sikhi sidhaant. These are unchangeable. This includes things such as the amrit sanchaar ceremony, doing nitnem, parkash and sukhassan of guru granth sahib etc.

WIth regards to the langar, i am sure most people are familiar with the lifestyle and environment of the average perosn in india. People of that time ate langar on floor for many reasons. Firstly for such large gatherings, crowds often in thousands, arranging table n chairs is no easy task. Secondly maintance of them takes a lot more effort vs simple floor. THirdly serving ppl on floor in rows is much quicker and efficient. Fourthly, most ppl in the pind used to eat on floor at home anyways. Very few ppl ever used a regular dining set, both due to limited space and limited money. HOwever as ppl have become succesfull they have been able to afford more conviences and the lifestyle of the average family has changed significantly now.

For instance, in old traditions ppl all used to dress in kurta pajama n ladies in suits. CLothing was both expensive for the average farmer as well, this clothign was suitable for the fairly consistantly warm temperature there. Now we can not deny that this was a definite tradition of the puratan times, but does this mean that now that ppl have become more succesful the guru would forbid ppl to wear other clothes (granted they are not obscene)? Or for ppl living in colder climates, would the guru also limit them to wear only kurtas n suits n discard all other types of clothing?

Or take another example, cooking of food during that time was done in kuchay ovens and washing of utensils, plates was done with sand n water. THese are age old traditions which all practiced during that time but does this mean that the guru would today say no you can not use gas or electric stoves, or microwaves, and that u have to get rid of dishwashers?

THe example like this are endless but would u say that any gurdwara who uses the NEW methods vs the old "traditional" methods is disrespecting the guru or gurdwara in anyway? ALso why do ppl talk only of tables/chairs as tradition but forget about all these endless other things from the time? THe truth is it doenst matter. These are all conveinces of modern society and one should not look upon them as some sort of evil, for God Himself has blessed us with all these conveniences for us to enjoy life.

THese things have all changed cuz they deal with cultural traditions which are constantly changing, both over time with advancing technology and with geography based on where on lives. A SIkh who accepts these changes in these areas in no way shows that he or she is disrespecting the guru. The gurus kept friendly company and visited many kings, emperors of that time both at their own places and at the palaces of teh kings. It is highly naive for us to assume that they would repeatedly refuse to eat at these places or request special seating arrangments on ground, when all palaces had tables n chairs for guests to eat from. Could we expect the guru to disrespect the offern of a generous, honest host in such a manner?

Furthermore, we often equate langar with the food served only in the gurdwara. HOwever, for a sikh langar is any meal and all meals (be it they are acquired thru honest means). A sikh is supposed to keep the lord in remembrance at all times, and say prayers before all meals in thanx for the blessings. If we argue that langar is only that place where the guru's parkash is (i.e. gurdwara) this also fails because the guru is supposed to be with the sikh at all times. Like the lord the guru accompanies his sikh wherever he goes. That is why a sikh keeps the panj kakaar on at all times, keeps his head covered at all times, and always follows the rehit maryada at all times. He doesnt do it only inside the confines of a gurdwara, for to a sikh the guru isnt only located in the gurdwara. Thus with this proper mindset one has to face the reality that any meal a sikh eats is in the company of his guru, and thus is langar.

This means that every meal we eat inside our house is also langar. Yet why does everyperson who so loudly claim "no tables n chairs in gurdwara cuz its anti-panthic" still eat, breakfast, lunch and dinner on tables and chairs in their own home? Many even have parkaash of guru granth sahib inside their house, yet have tables n chairs in their kitchen? DOes this mean that a sikh can choose which meal he or she wishes to call langar accordign to their own convenience? Even more blatant than this, even most gurdwars who adopt a "no tables n chairs policy" have tables n chairs in the committee offices, living quarters for visiting keertanis etc. Is the food they eat in the office or their rooms no longer langar? SUch is the hypocricy practiced in sikhi today. So does this mean that they should throw out all tables in chairs in their house? I think we can all agree with our common sense that this wud be absurd. Getting rid of the tables n chairs in ones house isnt going to make the house or its inhabitants any more spiritual than keeping them.

The point is we as a community have wasted so much energy and time arguing about a completely spiritually irrelevent point. If a gurdwara wishes to use all mats n eat on floor than by all means that is perfectly fyne and everyone should eat on the floor. IF another gurdwara wishes to use tables n chairs then that is also fyne and we shouldtn discriminate. As long as both gurdwaras have the same seating arrangment for anyone who enters the gurdwara then it is acceptable.

IN the end the only victims from this argument is the panth itself. The mainstream media has jumped at this oportunity to divide and cause disharmony in the minority sikh community and we ignorantly have accepted their division as "fundamental" and "moderates" based on this childish disagreement over eating methods. Let us pray that we can overcome this and reunite as one collective panth.