CASTE!!

[gagan]

i agree with gmb sim. it dusnt matter about what gurdwara you go to, you should receive the same respect to whichever one you go to, but just because you go to one Gurdwara, it doesn't mean that the doors of the other Gurdware shut for you. Gurdware are there for you to progress towards the Guru, and it doesn't matter which Gurdwara you go to, as long as you go there with the right frame of mind, and that you try to achieve what you are there for, what the Gurdwara is there for, not to socialise or any other excuse that people come out with.

[Sarbloh Soulja]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!
Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

i agree with gmb sim. it dusnt matter about what gurdwara you go to, you should receive the same respect to whichever one you go to, but just because you go to one Gurdwara, it doesn't mean that the doors of the other Gurdware shut for you. Gurdware are there for you to progress towards the Guru, and it doesn't matter which Gurdwara you go to, as long as you go there with the right frame of mind, and that you try to achieve what you are there for, what the Gurdwara is there for, not to socialise or any other excuse that people come out with.

yeh, but lets be realistic, hardly anyone goes to gurdwara with 'the right frame of mind' including myself..

[Ma$ter P]

WJKK WJKF!

Piariyo, after reading tha bulk of the posts, i feel that i can only agree with the encouragement ov uniting the youths. with all due respects 2 tha Singh Sabha Crew... i, as a person brought up as a "Ramgaria" in leeds had sum view point clashes with sum mans from there. i dnt mean 2 insult, but although Singh Sabha Gwara may be very active, in my personal opinion they are also very naive and unwilling to accept, 4get respect others peoples view points and up bringing, and believe that their own militant style up bringing is the only tru 1. agen, i dnt wish 2 cuss, but until we accpt the Sangat of what it has bcom.. regardless whether its full ov chillaz. Does Gurbani not give the Sangat a very high status. Forcing your perspective upon others shudnt b wot we're here for... but for them 2 make their own descisions... and for Sikhi Camps 2 b a guidance.

WJKK WJKF!

[ISingh]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

as a person brought up as a "Ramgaria" in leeds had sum view point clashes

Bhai Sahib, from reading this I presume (please forgive if i'm wrong) that your view clashes were about jaath paath. You are most likely to be aware that the caste system was eradicated from Sikhi from Guru Nanak Dev Ji alway to the creation of Khalsa.

in my personal opinion they are also very naive and unwilling to accept, 4get respect others peoples view points and up bringing, and believe that their own militant style up bringing is the only tru 1

Fair enough. You are entitled to your own opinion but can u explain how you came to this conclusion. By explain i mean to say what was said to you. Singh Sabha Gurdwara does respect others peoples view points, as long as it is in line with Guru Granth and Guru Panth. Where there is something false being done in terms of parchaar, then its not a matter of respect, but a matter of right and wrong according to the Sikhi. A prime example would be the issue of the Bradford Nagar Kirtan this year, atking Maharaaj to a RSS based Hindu Mandir. There is actaully a hukamnama (I think) st

ating that Guru Granth Sahib not should be taken to and rest outside any other place other the Gurdwara. Now many other Gurdwaras in Bradford protested and did something about this. None! It was only Singh Sabha who organised youth to give out leaflets (as there was nothing else we could do) outside the Hindu Mandir. We were also called "extremeists and troublemakers". If doing parchaar like this is regarded as a "millitant style upbringing" then so be it.

but until we accpt the Sangat of what it has bcom.. regardless whether its full ov chillaz

Your right. Guru Granth Sahib Jee does give SadhSangat a high status, but not "chillaz". If we accept the sangat for what it has become, is that it then? If its full of "chillaz" does it stay at that? No. It is accepted of what the sangat has become, which is why there is much parchaar being done to change the situation from "become" to what it "should" be.

sqsMgiq kYsI jwxIAY ]

suthusungath kaisee jaaneeai

How is the Society of the Saints to be known?

ijQY eyko nwmu vKwxIAY ]

jithai eaeko naam vukhaaneeai

There, the Name of the One Lord is chanted.

Sorry if I have offended

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[gmb_sim]

Waheguru Ji ..

ISingh intressting points but you said :

There is actaully a hukamnama (I think) stating that Guru Granth Sahib not should be taken to and rest outside any other place other the Gurdwara.

The guru granth sahib ji says :

ijQY jwie bhY myrw siqgurU so Qwnu suhwvw rwm rwjy ]

jithai jaa-ay bahai mayraa satguroo so thaan suhaavaa raam raajay.

Wherever my True Guru goes and sits, that place is beautiful, O Lord King.

gurisKˆØI so Qwnu BwilAw lY DUir muiK lwvw ] gusikheeN so thaan bhaali-aa lai Dhoor mukh laavaa.

The Guru's Sikhs seek out that place; they take the dust and apply it to their faces.

gurisKw kI Gwl Qwie peI ijn hir nwmu iDAwvw ] gursikhaa kee ghaal thaa-ay pa-ee jin har naam Dhi-aavaa.

The works of the Guru's Sikhs, who medita

te on the Lord's Name, are approved.

ijn@ nwnku siqguru pUijAw iqn hir pUj krwvw ]2] jinH naanak satgur pooji-aa tin har pooj karaavaa. ||2||

Those who worship the True Guru, O Nanak - the Lord causes them to be worshipped in turn. ||2||

Page 450, Raag Aasaa, Sri Guru Raam Das Ji, SGGS

The guru teaches all .. we shouldnt argue where he teaches as he is our eternal teacher .. it doesnt make a differnce if its at the gurdwara or at a mandhar the guru is still remains our guru! what you sed means we shouldnt even go on a nagar kirtan because that going 'outside' the gurdwara.

Another thing how does that mandir have links with RSS, the place where RSS exist in bradford is in a center near thornbury we shouldnt assume or accuse anybody without knowing the facts. that wil be our downfall definatly!!

You are most likely to be aware that the caste system was eradicated from Sikhi from Guru Nanak Dev Ji alway to the creation of Khalsa.

Master P sed he was brought up as a ramgaria it doesnt mean he follows the caste system!

Your right. Guru Granth Sahib Jee does give SadhSangat a high status, but not "chillaz". If we accept the sangat for what it has become, is that it then? If its full of "chillaz" does it stay at that? No. It is accepted of what the sangat has become, which is why there is much parchaar being done to change the situation from "become" to

what it "should" be.

I agree 100% with you there reasnable and intelligent point!!

Master P said

i dnt mean 2 insult, but although Singh Sabha Gwara may be very active, in my personal opinion they are also very naive and unwilling to accept, 4get respect others peoples view points and up bringing, and believe that their own militant style up bringing is the only tru 1

That is a kinda sterotypical veiw Not all people are backword thinkers but to an extent it is absilutly right!!

Again I invite my sikh brothers and sisters from leeds, bradford, huddersfield,halifax to the Akal Sikh Assosiation meetings on wednesday afternoon at guru gobind singh gurdwara from 6:30 - 8:00. A small amount of your time can make a massive differnce!! We are trying to unite the youth please help and support us to do it!! In the future it will help us with the scheme One Gurdwara Bradford.

Bhull Chuck Maaf

Gur Fathe

Gobind Marg Boys--GMB--- United We Stand .. Devided We Fall..

[gurupanth]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Another thing how does that mandir have links with RSS, the place where RSS exist in bradford is in a center near thornbury we shouldnt assume or accuse anybody without knowing the facts. that wil be our downfall definatly!!

My question is whether any of you lot know whether the mandir has links with RSS or not. As far as i'm aware this topic seems to be more of a hotspot for youth in Braford. I can see that ther is definately a segregation between the sikh youth (i assume youth as the elders would probably say things straight to each others face) in bradford. I've come to know that the centre that you are also 'ASSUMING' to be a centre for RSS is actually a :v :g Nirankari Bhavan. Now this group is mislead in such a way that they only believe the guru in form of a human.

please follow the link:

Nirankari Bull

another intereseting one

ht

tp://www.sikhlionz.com/nirankari.htm

We should try and aim to resolve problems.

Thought i make a few pointers

Yours

The Khalsa Panth

[gurupanth]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Some good points I singh!

as a person brought up as a "Ramgaria" in leeds had sum view point clashes

some people may call a person ramgarhia beacuse it may be the name of the gurdwara they go to. For instance "gobind marg boys" - isn't any diiferent. Thought i make that point as i've seen that at the end of some messages. lol - sounds pretty rediculous to be honest.

All for the Panth.

[Ma$ter P]

WJKK WJKF

Bhaji u enlighten me with sum very interesting and tru points which i agen can only agree wid. mayb i mis wrote my previous point. the idea i was trying to propagate was that... nowadays many Singhs luk down upon wot the sangat has bcom, which in all honesty i do aswell sometimes. the sangat has bcom so diluted, hance i stand corrected about ur idea on parchaar. but 2 bring the youth 2getha, we shudnt luk down on those hu hav deviated extensively from Sikhi, but com down 2 their level ov thinkin, and aid them in realising the tru path. like they say, u can only show a horse 2 the water, but you cnt make it drink it. I kno Singhs hu if they're walking thru the streets and go pass sum ppl smoking and some ov the smoke passes over them, they'll go have a bath n the works. such Brahmin type activity will only increase the gap between your aim and he youths. i rememba ppl tellin me that the Gurus used 2 embrace tramps in their arms, not worrying even a lil if their clothes got dirty. In this sense, we shud b prepared 2 embrace youths, not by doin wot they do, but atleast ourselves 2 b in their environments and pull them in that sense.

(if i offended ne1, plz 4give... safe)

WJKK WJFK

[ISingh]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

The guru teaches all .. we shouldnt argue where he teaches as he is our eternal teacher .. it doesnt make a differnce if its at the gurdwara or at a mandhar the guru is still remains our guru!

Very true. Guru is our eternal teacher, but you point about if Maharaaj is at a Gurdwara or Mandhir I disagree with. The whole message of our Gurus was that there is Only One Waheguru and along with living in this world our prurpose is to Naam Jap.

We go the Gurdwara to darshan of Guru Ji, "Man Neeva Karkai". The gurdwara is open to anyone wishing to do the same as long as they abide to the basic Gurdwara principles. So why do we take Guru Ji places like the Mandir, So Guru Ji comes to them first? Why not instead of Going to the Gurdwara, we stay at home at let Guru Jee come to us?

However Guru Granth Sahib Ji also says:

SGGS p.428 Guru Amar Das Ji

ijn@w ipru rwivAw Awpxw iqn@w ivthu bil jwau ]

jinuaa pir raaviaa aapunaa thinuaa vittuhu bal jaao

I am a sacrifice to those who have enjoyed their Husband Lord.

sdw ipr kY sMig rhih ivchu Awpu gvwie ]5]

sudhaa pir kai sung rehehi vichuhu aap guvaae

Th

ey dwell forever with their Husband Lord; they eradicate self-conceit from within. ||5||

qnu mnu sIqlu muK aujly ipr kY Bwie ipAwir ]

thun mun seethul mukh oujulae pir kai bhaae piaar

Their bodies and minds are cooled and soothed, and their faces are radiant, from the love and affection of their Husband Lord.

syj suKwlI ipru rvY haumY iqRsnw mwir ]6]

saej sukhaalee pir ruvai houmai thrisunaa maar

They enjoy their Husband Lord upon His cozy bed, having conquered their ego and desire. ||6||

kir ikrpw Gir AwieAw gur kY hyiq Apwir ]kar kirupaa ghar aaeiaa gur kai haeth apaar

Granting His Grace, He comes into our homes, through our infinite Love for the Guru.

vru pwieAw sohwgxI kyvl eyku murwir ]7]

vur paaeiaa sohaagunee kaevul eaek muraar

The happy soul-bride obtains the One Lord as her Husband. ||7||

sBy gunh bKswie lieEnu myly mylxhwir ]subhae guneh bukhusaae laeioun maelae maelunehaar

All of her sins are forgiven; the Uniter unites her with Himself.

nwnk AwKxu AwKIAY jy suix Dry ipAwru ]8]12]34]

naanuk aakhun aakheeai jae sun dhurae piaar

O Nanak, chant such chants, that hearing them, He may enshrine love for you. ||8||12||34||

Its a matter having love for your Guru:

SGGS p.1412 Guru Nanak Dev Ji

jau qau pRym Kylx kw cwau ]<

/span>

jo tho praem khaelun kaa chaao

If you desire to play this game of love with Me,

isru Dir qlI glI myrI Awau ]

sir dhar thulee gulee maeree aao

then step onto My Path with your head in hand.

What i meant by the Hukamnama was that 'in the procession of the nagar kirtan' Guru Ji should only be taken to Gurdwaras and nowhere else ie. Mandir. Again if people want to pay respect then they should join in the Nagar Kirtan and follow behind in the foot steps of Guru Sahib.

Another thing how does that mandir have links with RSS

I can't believe that you think the Mandir has no links with RSS. Hasmukh Shah who is one of the 12 international trustee of VHP, a hindu nationalist group has strong links with the mandir. Their whole aim is to make Sikhs believe they are part of Hinduism, and the way they want us to believe is by taking Nagar Kirtan to the Mandir. They didn't just decide one day that we want the Nagar Kirtan to come to the Mandir, they have aims and objectives behind the plans

Open you Eyes!

Sorry if i have offended

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[jagjit_waheguru]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Pyare jio, to say the Hindu Mandir has no RSS links, is like saying the Klu Klux klan is not white. Not only are they white, but they are white and proud. The Mandir is very open in its views, and is proud of its right wing views. Otherwise you do not say on radio after Babri masjid incident, that us Hindus will contnue until every Mandir in India is destroyed. This was said by them, in a town with 70,000 muslims. I think that is why Mr Shah s pharmacy keeps getting blown up by muslims.

So please lets keep to rational. As far as Guru ji in a Mandir. The Guru should only be where there is a Palki, manji sahib, Chuar sahib, and due respect to it. i.e. no matha tekking to idols in its hazoree, so I think Mandirs are out, also it is against Panthic maryada.

I applaud your wish to have everyone together in one Gurdwara. i was hoping to pop in on wednesday, but very busy with MA exams. When i came here 5 years ago, I similarly thought the same. Hence we setup leeds& bradford sikhs, which brought both leeds and bradford sikhs all on one platform. there is no hierachy, just youth doing seva togther based on consesus. It has worked well for 5 years and has been growing steadily.

What you seem to be doing is just duplicating that. The problem I see as an outsider is that all of you youth are still influenced by your own gurdwaras, eventhough you know this is wrong. You want unity, but only unity at your gurdwara as the base. Which is why rather than calling it singh sabha youth, or with any jathebandie, we called it leeds and bradford sikhs. A common denominating base, which everyone with every vi

ew can come under. Rather than setting up an Akal Sikh Group, which people are only going to say is a leeds road thing. Do seva is what is already here, and make a leeds road unit to leeds and bradford sikhs. then you will part of a network of over 70+ youth sevadaars based in many gurdwaras in leeds, bradford and huddersfield.

There is no heirachy, everything is done with satkar and consesus. I myself am rarely involved in youth stuff now, but I do see all the youth doing seva with pyaar, and creating unity through actions.

waheguru ji ke khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh