Sant Samaj, Taksal Reject Calendar

[jagjit_waheguru]

waheguru ji ke khalsa waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, may I ask exactly which 150 jathebandies have actually supported this step? Please list them? Are they jathedars or sants, with actually no jathebandies?

For example, jathedar or Sant Balwinder singh from this pind, who only has one other Amritdhari in his pind, who porbably does not like him anyway, but he calls this his jathebandie...

The truth is only sant samaj and Damdami taksal support this, no one else. The list of 150 is just there sants and their deras, who are all part of sant smamj in the first place, or Gurdwaras looked after by the taksal, who are part of taksal.

It is a huff and puff about nothing. Look at today hukamnama by Bhagat kabeer Ji, about attaining peace and sehaj. Why lose sehaj because a bibi may do keertan, or wash the floor of darbaar sahib. Are our minds so prejudiced that we lose our sehaj because a bibi wants to do seva?

If this is what you honestly believe then will you also now stop bibian in UK youth keertan darbaars and camps? Otherwise you are hypocritical, why can bibian do seva in Uk, but cannot do seva in Amritsar?

waheguru ji ke khalsa waheguru ji ke fateh

[Taksali Singh]

Gur Fateh!

Dear Veer JaskeeratGyan Singh "Khalsa" (aka Taksali Singh),

Please answer the questions posed earlier on, rather than diverting the conversation onto matters which are nothing more than "political" in nature. The stance on meat, number of banis and raagmala are unnecessary here.

I'll spell them out for you again and would appreciate your view on these matters as the internet "Taksal" spokesperson in order to clarify the position.

1. Why does the Taksal promote as part of their maryada, the Bipran concept of Pati-Parmeasur? This is not in line with the teaching of Gurbani an is clearly a legacy of the Bipar combined with that emerging from the Victorian Era of the 1900s.

2. If women cannot be part of the Punj because Sant Jee presumably argued that no women got up during the initial Vasaikhi call for 5 heads, does this also mean, that a Sikh of say, Bhatra and Lohar backgrounds, although can become Amritdhari, cannot be part of the Punj, because no Bhatra or Lohar was present in the original 5? Let's take it a step further, by the same logic, there were no Caucasian Sikhs present during 1699, so whilst we can have 'white' Sikhs today, they also can't be part of the Punj? This would seem to be the logical conclusion on the grounds you stipulate for the Taksal not permitting women to do seva in the Punj?

Look forward to hearing from you.

Gur Fateh!

Niranjana.

WJKKWJKP!

Firstly i am NOT a spokesperson of taksal, i have simply studied there for a short amount of time. I am in no way claiming to be a spokesperson, i am just a mere student! So lets not make any assumptions as to my position!

Secondly, I haven't the knowledge to answer your first question. I am not going to make out that i know everything or that i have discussed every matter with the Singhs in great detail, because i havent. There are somethings i discussed with them during my stay at Mehta and other things i didnt have the opportunity to discuss. But nevertheless, i will try my best to answer your question so please bear with me.

As for your 2nd question. It is a great sin to even look at the caste/background of a Gursikh. Im sure 99.9% of the gursikhs on this forum will stand by me on that, even those who oppose my views. So to say a Bhatra or Lohar sikh cant be apart of the panj is completely absurd. Once a gursikh becomes Amritdhari they immediately renounce all background and caste, and to be apart of the panj you must be Amritdhari of the highest calibre, so that rules out that pathetic arguement!

Then you state white sikhs, this makes me laugh... Guroo Maahaaraaj told 5 heads to come forward, They knew all along that these 5 heads were to be of Singhs, now if a white SINGH is at the highest level of Sikhee then OF COURSE he is able to perform the seva of the panj. However, this does not make it acceptable for bibian to do so.

Once again i apologise for my lack of knowledge and beg you to forgive this Maahaa-moorakh for not being able to answer the questions you put to me.

May you all remain within the sanctuary of the Lords Feet and may the Lord Himself embrace us all as His children.

WJKKWJKP!

[Niranjana]

Veer JaskeeratGyan Singh Khalsa Taksali,

OK, we’ll leave the ‘spokesman’ part out of here, nonetheless you are a student of the Mehta based Taksal and having seen you in action previously, a fairly accomplished one at that too when it comes to Gurbani Ucharan and Santhia.

With reference to the above quote from your past post – allow me first to clarify my stance, this is not my view, it is simply showing what can be argued with the same logic as that you presented from Sant Jee for the non-participation of women. Secondly, I cannot see how you can agree to “a white SINGH is at the highest level of Sikhee then OF COURSE he is able to perform the seva of the panj” but in the same tone still consider it unacceptable for bibian to do so – Veer, you also make me laugh.

Let’s consider this point by point:

1. You state it is a “great sin to even look at the caste/background of a Gursikh”. You stated EVEN “LOOK” at one’s caste – I personally feel differently (as for the purposes for marriage it is critical to understand gotra to avoid incest relations for instance), as the issue is not so much caste within Sikhi, but discrimination on the basis of caste which is the issue, however, for now, let’s go with your thoughts (which I’m certain them majority of Gursikhs will agree with on this forum). Fine, it is a “great sin to EVEN “LOOK” at the caste/background” – yet you (and the ‘maryada’ of the Taksal) are willing to DISCRIMINATE on the basis of gender??? Not only that, but seek to back it up by alluding to Guru Jee wanting it this way? Please kindly reconsider my proposition, as it is as pathetic an argument as that which you are suggesting for not allowing female Punj Pyare.

2. The point on white Sikhs was made to highlight what can happen with the “logic” you / the Taksal have proposed for not allowing Bibian to be part of the Punj – you are discriminating on the basis of gender. You found my caste scenario hard to digest and let’s face it, caste is a lot more subjective in the global world than gender and race, which is why the latter is also raised to show how ridiculous an argument it is, presented by yourself for not allowing ladies into the Punj.

Anyhow, let’s not allow this to get in the way of wider discussions – let’s say the Taksal are correct in their stance. I present the following to you for consider (in addition to the Pati-Parmeasur –surely with the wealth of educated Taksali Singhs in Leeds, there must be someone who could answer this part?):

If, on the grounds that no woman answered the call in 1699, they are not permitted to be part of the Punj, how about the whole notion of them being part of the Amritdhari Khalsa? Allow me to continue (and note, these are not necessarily my views, I’m playing devil’s advocate in order to look at this point from every angle)…in 1699, in fact right up to the Misl Period, we do not hear of any Sikhi receiving Khande-da-Amrit (e.g. the Guru wives, wives of famous Singhs of Guru Sahibs time etc). Then with the uprising of the Misls, we see examples of Bibi Shamsher Kaur (a Hindoo girl who along with her sister was taken in my Jassa Singh Ramgarhia after her own community disowned them because Pathans had previously kidnapped them) – this is some time after 1699. Secondly we have the case of Namdhari Baba Ram Singh who is also accredited with beginning the progress of distributing Khande-da-Amrit to both men and women.

I have a video recording of Sant Jee pre-1984 criticising the practice amongst the Nihang Singhs and Hazoori Singhs of distributing “kirpan da amrit” to women because “there is only one Khalsa, not Khalsa and Khalsee” – yet it seems ironic on one hand the Taksal follow this hukam of Sant Jee (i.e. Khande-da-Amrit for both sexes) and at the same time suggest that women cannot be part of the Punj Pyare on the basis of history, despite the same history indicating that women taking any form of Amrit initiation (be it Khande-da-Amrit or the innovation that arose later within certain communities of Kirpan da Amrit) didn’t occur during 1699 either???

How far is the Taksal wanting to take this stance?

[KH4L1$T4N1]

If the Sikh calender is not aceoted by all Sikhs then that is just giving facist groups like RSS, Shiv sena etc an excuse to say that Sikhs came from Hindus.

[10th regiment]

though it saddens me to say but the taksal is now discredited after baba thakur singh saying sant ji will come back before he dies etc

by saying that and probably knowing deep down he was wrong and not admitting he was wrong, baba ji lost all trust

and from that stemmed succession problems and the further split in the taksal as of today

so whatever the taksal says now has little or no authority which is a far cry from the days of sant ji

[Bijla Singh]

in 1699, in fact right up to the Misl Period, we do not hear of any Sikhi receiving Khande-da-Amrit (e.g. the Guru wives, wives of famous Singhs of Guru Sahibs time etc). Then with the uprising of the Misls, we see examples of Bibi Shamsher Kaur (a Hindoo girl who along with her sister was taken in my Jassa Singh Ramgarhia after her own community disowned them because Pathans had previously kidnapped them) – this is some time after 1699. Secondly we have the case of Namdhari Baba Ram Singh who is also accredited with beginning the progress of distributing Khande-da-Amrit to both men and women.

Can you please clarify your point on this? I am little confused. Baba Banda Singh Ji took Amrit in 1708 and the account is well recorded in Bhatt Vahis. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[rKr]

10th Regiment.

"He", Baba Thakur Singh Jee happened to be one of the most CHARDEEKALAA Gursikhs to ever grace this era of darkness.

Baba Jee's jeevan was spent spreading the name of the Lord, and inspiring others (including my-pappi-self) to engrave that Name within the very core of our souls.

Baba Jee's seva for and to the panth has been immense and footprints they have left behind are proving impossible to even think about filling. I don't want to get involved in an argument, but perhaps YOU are wrong in disresepcting the bachan of a Mahapurukh.

If you feel Baba Jee was wrong, keep it to yourself, for I know if I was to profess that I believe Baba Jee to be right, the thread would be closed.

I feel your post has little/no relevance to the topic, and it saddens me.

[10th regiment]

forgive me if i sound disrespectful. i dont intend to be

baba thakur singh ji was a great gursikh no doubt.

but what he said and subquently the amount of people who relied on what he said, he let them down i feel

and in reality lost the taksal alot of respect in the end

[KH4L1$T4N1]

True say 10th regiment

[rKr]

I'm sure this isn't the way this topic is meant to go... but maybe Baba Jee hasn't let anyone down, but some people have decided it's easier to follow the majority...?

Maybe those people who used to bring Baba Jee to their homes and stand by their ever word, who have without even a thought for those times turned their backs on their bachans are the ones who have let both baba jee, and the ones who believe in their bachans down.

A Gurmukh like Baba Jee deserves a lot more respect than the awful talk on these message boards.