Image Of The Guru

[simmal tree]

rKr jee, do you know if sant baba harnaam singh jee's katha is recorded? any of it? because there is very little audio of them online... only one track on gurmatveechar.com

[Dhan Teri Sikhi]

Waheguru Jee Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Jee Kee Fateh

Just wondered what people's thoughts are as to what Guru Jee is referring to in this line of Gurbani by reference to "Image"

siqgur mUriq kau bil jwau ]

sathigur moorath ko bal jaao ||

I am a sacrifice to the Image of the True Guru.

Waheguru Jee Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Jee Kee Fateh

[N30S1NGH]

I would like to see a quote of where Baba Harnam Singh has said this because I find this difficult to believe. Gursikhs have told me we should do Simran exactly how our Panj Pyare have taught us; doing the way as taught in the Amrit Sanchar by Guru Sahib is obviously the best.

Kulbir Singh has written a short piece on Tapoban regarding this:

what you are suggesting is totally contrary to Gurmat way of naam abhyaas. Gurmat way of naam abhyaas is summarized in the following pankiti:

SHABAD GUR, SURAT DHUN CHELA||

The pankiti should be translated as follows. Surat i.e. our concentration is the chela and dhuni i.e. sound of shabad (Gurmantr) is Guru. This means that we our concentration that is chela i.e. disciple should listen attentively to the dhuni i.e. sound that comes out of jap of Shabad. This is the Gurmat technique of Naam.

Here are pankitis to support this:

SUNAIYAI, LAAGAI SEHAJ DHYAAN||

(Through listening to Naam, sehaj dhyaan is attained)

RAAM NAAM SUNN, RASNA KEHTAY||

(While doing swaas swaas simran in Baikharee baani, one should listen to it at the same time. Raam naam noo suno, rasna naal kehinde hoye. Rasna naan naam is bakharee form of abhyaas i.e. the audible abhyaas. While we are in public all day we do same swaas swaas abhyaas in non-baikharee form i.e. non-audible form. It is audible to us but not to the world)

A very famous abhyaasi Singh – Bhai Raghbir Singh Bir used to do abhyaas by keeping a picture of Guru Nanak Dev jee in front of him. He would focus on the picture and do abhyaas. After a while this picture took a live form and would smile at him and even talk to him. Bhai Raghbir Singh Bir used to think that he had attained a great avastha but later he found out that he had actually gone the wrong way.

It took him many years to get back to the Gurmat way of abhyaas i.e. only listening to naam. He wasted 10 years in this process. Hopefully our veer and bhains will learn up from this singh’s experience.

TO DO NAAM ABHYAAS HAVING ANY MATERIAL THING IN FRONT IS PURE IDOL WORSHIPPING.

Daas,

Kulbir Singh

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I find it extremely offensive and disguisting how kulbir singh can call those 10 years a waste. Did he measure sharda of bhai ragbhir singh ji towards Guru Ji?? What position he is on to judge a naam abhyaasi individual who has slightly different technique than him?? Is this a gurmukh way of doing wichar or taliban way of pushing beleifs on others ?

Yes few sikh groups go straight to Nirgun worship of Waheguru but few go through sargun form of God which is Guru Ji to merge with Nirgun form of Waheguru.Gyan Thakur Singh Ji Patiale wale(Damdami taksal) also talks about it in his japji sahib katha. I find nothing wrong with that. Bhai raghbir Singh Ji had a forna that he might have got salvation which stopped him to proceed further but if you ask me, if he didn't had a furna and if he would kept up his prem bhakti towards Guru Ji and kept doing simran on Guru Ji charan. One day Guru Ji would have taken him and merge him with Nirgun form of Waheguru.

[Guest A Singh.]

How well phrased Kulbir Singh Ji's comments are can be questioned but no doubt his argument and evidence is quite strong. He has quoted many parts of Bani which explain that the way to focus during Paath and Simran is through listening to the sound.

He then poses a question to those who disagree with him; if Abhiyas through visualisations is acceptable, where is it mentioned in Gurbani? Gurbani always talks about listening to the sound of the Naam.The key message was focussing on man-made paintings, making up Mantars or making up techniques for Abhiyas is not required; Gurbani and our Panj Pyare tell us very clearly what to do.

[N30S1NGH]

He has quoted many parts of Bani which explain that the way to focus during Paath and Simran is through listening to the sound

That's a advance stage. Nobody is denying that. There are stages in meditation. I think people tend to jump right on dhuni's. Doesn't work like that, most people have very fragile mind so to mind to attune to then simran bringing up saroop techniques are used and encouraged by loads of Mahapursh. I find nothing wrong in that.

[Guest A Singh.]

Veer "Namstang" Ji, there most certainly are different stages in meditation. But where is this technique of visualisation promoted in Gurbani? In the early stages of Simran we are to repeat the Gurmantar out loud, even as loud as possible; even this is mentioned in Gurbani.

This method of focussing on manmade pictures when we should be focussing on the Gurmantar or Amrit Bani, cannot be promoted unless some kind of Gurmat basis within Gurbani can be found.

Quoting a particular Gursikh or spiritually elevated on an issue is all well and good but many Gursikhs differ on many issues. Not all Sants or Babas agree on all issues. They are all only human and not Guru; only Gurbani has the full Truth; and in very important issues such as how to Jap Naam only Guru Sahib in the Roop of Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and Panj Pyare, can be consulted on these issues.

[N30S1NGH]

Veer "Namstang" Ji, there most certainly are different stages in meditation. But where is this technique of visualisation promoted in Gurbani? In the early stages of Simran we are to repeat the Gurmantar out loud, even as loud as possible; even this is mentioned in Gurbani.

This method of focussing on manmade pictures when we should be focussing on the Gurmantar or Amrit Bani, cannot be promoted unless some kind of Gurmat basis within Gurbani can be found.

Quoting a particular Gursikh or spiritually elevated on an issue is all well and good but many Gursikhs differ on many issues. Not all Sants or Babas agree on all issues. They are all only human and not Guru; only Gurbani has the full Truth; and in very important issues such as how to Jap Naam only Guru Sahib in the Roop of Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and Panj Pyare, can be consulted on these issues.

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Gur Ki Morat Man Mein Dhyaan (first stage )

Gur Ka shabad mantar mann maan || (second stage)

[N30S1NGH]

Veer "Namstang" Ji, there most certainly are different stages in meditation. But where is this technique of visualisation promoted in Gurbani? In the early stages of Simran we are to repeat the Gurmantar out loud, even as loud as possible; even this is mentioned in Gurbani.

This method of focussing on manmade pictures when we should be focussing on the Gurmantar or Amrit Bani, cannot be promoted unless some kind of Gurmat basis within Gurbani can be found.

Quoting a particular Gursikh or spiritually elevated on an issue is all well and good but many Gursikhs differ on many issues. Not all Sants or Babas agree on all issues. They are all only human and not Guru; only Gurbani has the full Truth; and in very important issues such as how to Jap Naam only Guru Sahib in the Roop of Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and Panj Pyare, can be consulted on these issues.

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Gur Ki Morat Man Mein Dhyaan (first stage )

Gur Ka shabad mantar mann maan || (second stage)

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Sakhi:

Baba Budda Ji upon leaving his last breath he concentrated on Guru Ji's Charan and while reciting the shabad guru. He was bhramgyani, but his love towards Guru ji was soo immense that he concentrated on his charan at last breath of his life.

[N30S1NGH]

also sarbloh_geeza,

I am no way saying advocating usage of visualizing guru's ji morat over shabad. All i m saying, it's ok for person to concentrate on guru's ji charan while reciting gurmantar at the first just to get concentration as birthi start becoming shakusham(subtle), dhyaan willl automatically will attune to shabad dhuni.

[SSM]

I'm not saying this is what everyone should do, its something I did, not cos I chose to, it just happened.

But I prayed so u fall in love with bani BUT when u think of Guru Ji's physical form thenthe amount of love and desire to meet Guru H that cant be equalled to the other love at the start.

u just become so humble and lose urself, U dont matter anymore unlike when u read bani cos then it never made me humble and desperate to mee my Guru Ji.

like someone said, depends what stage u at and if u starting then Guru Jis pic can be so helpful, if anything without it not easy, and u dont only want to read the shbad but meet the one wrote it in physical form.