Is This Maryada?

[International Akaali]

Brother I have the Taksali maryada link posted above... Is that the "correct" maryada like you just said?

134449[/snapback]

WJKK WJKF

personally i fink so coz Guru Gobind Singh Jee started the DamDami Taksal so i findit a "correct" maryada

sorry if i offended any1

WJKK WJKF

134514[/snapback]

So please tell me why cant I kill a Black cow?

134556[/snapback]

because you cant :TH:

[Gupt daasan daas]

the website has made inccorenct trnalatons of banee before too ive noticed

ive never heard from and taksali singh tha u shdunt kill a black cow...

so i dun kno bout tha

if u wanna get TAKSALS opiion on tha i gues go ask some of the more older knewloagble singhs instead of relying soley ona website

:lol:

and benti to respect ALL maryadas

instead of saying trhey were unedcated pindoos who opened there dehras for personal gains

thas very serious thiings to say, and people shud watch wa they say when they say stuff like tha

live and let live

if u follow sgpc maryada, great

go ahead

if u folow taksal, great, go ahead

if akj, great go ahead

but we still ALL sikhs

who belive in guru je as our guru

so dont be hatin on ure brothers

bhula chuka maf

[akjforever]

Taksal Maryada is legitmate because Taksal was made by Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself with Baba Deep Singh Ji as the first Jathedaar. For me that is enough reason to accept that rehit over the SGPC. I personally find that those that have actually lived the lifestyle and have Kamaee, the Panth's Gems, GurSikhs are the ones to follow as apposed to book scholars. Scholars can analyze and argue points, which they are good at, but they don't live the lifestyle and have no Kamaee. They may have everything in the brain. but they have nothing in their hearts. The path to God is through the heart, not the brain.

Bula Maaf Karneea Jeeo...

[LostSoul]

Is it me or is it that almost any maryada written has something controversial in it? Why are there so many maryadas out there? Does that not lead to seperateness? We as a quam cannot even seem to agree on what we should believe in? Shouldnt the maryada be another cornerstone in Sikhi? Shouldnt we as Sikhs instead of shouting for Khalistan (as many in this forum), instead shout for a well studied well thought out maryada for our nation? Why does the maryada have so much hate for Muslims in it? Why do they precah that we should not trust in a Muslim? Its time we stopped bickering over politics and begin to take interest in our religion again.

[N30S1NGH]

Let's just say for one second khalsa fauji that current taksal wasn't created by sri guru gobind singh ji for your own satisfication.

Taksal has major nirmale links ie- Baba Deep Singh Ji Shaheed, Sant Baba Bishan Singh Ji Muralewale and Sant baba sunder singh ji bhindranwale all were nirmala's that makes their lineage fully valid because nirmala goes back all the way to 5 singhs sent to kansi to learn vidya by sri guru gobind singh ji when they came back both bhai dya singh ji and bhai dharam singh ji were put under guidance of those five singhs. Even your "SGPC" "Akalis" that you look upon to fully acknowledge this fact.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

Let's just say for one second khalsa fauji that current taksal wasn't created by sri guru gobind singh ji for your own satisfication.

Taksal has major nirmale links ie- Baba Deep Singh Ji Shaheed, Sant Baba Bishan Singh Ji Muralewale and Sant baba sunder singh ji bhindranwale all were nirmala's that makes their lineage fully valid because nirmala goes back all the way to 5 singhs sent to kansi to learn vidya by sri guru gobind singh ji when they came back both bhai dya singh ji and bhai dharam singh ji were put under guidance of those five singhs. Even your "SGPC" "Akalis" that you look upon to fully acknowledge this fact.

134629[/snapback]

Sorry bro. This nirmala story is also false. We don't belive it. Baba Deep Singh was Jathaydaar Missal Shaheeda Nihung Singhs.

If you want to bash SGPC go ahead but maryada is not made by SGPC. Maryaada was made by Panth. Panth is also Guru. By making own maryadas, you aren't only going against Guru Panth, but also against Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Also answer this:

What is more important:

One maryada made by Guru Ji or a bunch of deras with their own maryadas. Why make a new one if Guru Ji has given us one already. Are the dera walas smarter than Guru Ji? Guru Ji made a mistake which they are correcting? Or some other motives? Why? Please anser why?

No wonder there is no unity and the situation is getting worse day by day.

I don't support the guys taking drugs in Gurudwaras but if you look at it, all they have done is made their own maryada. I am talking about Gurudwara is UK. The corrupt one.

[N30S1NGH]

Let's just say for one second khalsa fauji that current taksal wasn't created by sri guru gobind singh ji for your own satisfication.

Taksal has major nirmale links ie- Baba Deep Singh Ji Shaheed, Sant Baba Bishan Singh Ji Muralewale and Sant baba sunder singh ji bhindranwale all were nirmala's that makes their lineage fully valid because nirmala goes back all the way to 5 singhs sent to kansi to learn vidya by sri guru gobind singh ji when they came back both bhai dya singh ji and bhai dharam singh ji were put under guidance of those five singhs. Even your "SGPC" "Akalis" that you look upon to fully acknowledge this fact.

134629[/snapback]

Sorry bro. This nirmala story is also false. We don't belive it. Baba Deep Singh was Jathaydaar Missal Shaheeda Nihung Singhs.

If you want to bash SGPC go ahead but maryada is not made by SGPC. Maryaada was made by Panth. Panth is also Guru. By making own maryadas, you aren't only going against Guru Panth, but also against Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Also answer this:

What is more important:

One maryada made by Guru Ji or a bunch of deras with their own maryadas. Why make a new one if Guru Ji has given us one already. Are the dera walas smarter than Guru Ji? Guru Ji made a mistake which they are correcting? Or some other motives? Why? Please anser why?

No wonder there is no unity and the situation is getting worse day by day.

I don't support the guys taking drugs in Gurudwaras but if you look at it, all they have done is made their own maryada. I am talking about Gurudwara is UK. The corrupt one.

134662[/snapback]

Khalsa Fauji, baba deep singh ji was both nirmala,taksali and nihang. He was nirmala because of his link panchyati akhara in amritsar still exist today, check it out and who is we? we don't beleive in it..lol..you, yourself and no-one else..you got nobody to back you out just your akali side kicks. When SGPC made a maryada, your sgpc leaders called all the sampardava's including nirmale to have their input in the maryada. Even to to this day the ferengi agrenzi sgpc akali panth you look upon still take advise from nirmala sant and vidvan- sant teja singh ji nirmala who is main representative of nirmale samparda.

Nirmala contributions to the panth by j tirath singh:

How can I begin to summarise the contributions of the Nirmalay? It pervades so much of Sikhi's past; exegetical, philosophical, dharmic/aatmic vidya, yog abhyaas, shaastrarth, raag vidya, ayurvedic vidya...it's a shame these mahanindacs didn't think of that before mocking. Just to remind the sangat that many recent influential panthic figures were Nirmalay or educated by Nirmalay such as Sant Attar Singh Mustuana, Sant Baba Nand Singh ji (Nanaksarvale), Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale, Sant Sundar Singh Bhindranwale, Baba Jagjit Singh Herkhowal, Baba Jwala Singh Herkhowal, Sant Mukhtiar Singh Saarang, Sant Bishan Singh Muralewale...a few more famous historical Nirmalay; Sant Ishar Singh ji Rarasahib, Baba Bir Singh Naurangabd, Baba Sahib Singh Bedi, Baba Karam Singh Hoti Mardan....

Would there be much Sikh history if it weren't for the work of Nirmala scholars like Gyani Gyan Singh ji and Kavi Santokh Singh ji?

Nirmalas played an important role in the Singh Sabha movement as it is well known. The first head Granthi of Harimandir Sahib under the SGPC was Mahant Mul Singh. Many Nirmalas went to prison during the Singh Sabha movement and helped implement the Anand Karaj mariage. The Singh Sabha and the Akali movement are two different things (see Bhagat Lachman Singh's Autobiography).It is the Akalis who started creating trouble between Nirmalas and the SGPC. It is a known fact that Akalis were mainly inspired by ferengi sikhi, which does not believe that knowledge is necessary for exegesis.

Baba Teja Singh (a well-respected Nirmala Sikh) comments: ‘From 15th century in that time the [Adi] Guru Granth was composed. At that time, the four religious way’s that were existent. There was Gur Matt [sikh Guru’s thinking] in the Punjab, Bhagti Marg [Way of devotion] in South of India, Sufism in the west around Multan, and Vedant which was through out India. Those who believe in Vedas are to be found through out India. These four religious ways deal with one same subject. Bhagti Marg, Sufism, Gurmat and Vedant basically stand on one platform. Alright, I possess knowledge of Vedant. People will say that he speaks Gurbani [Guru’s word which is Dharma] in the manner of Vedant. If Someone is more versed in knowledge of Sufism, he will speak [Guru’s word] in a Sufi manner. If some one has interest in Bhagti Marg studies it he will talk in that manner [Guru’s word]. Some will speak of it [Dharma] in manner of Sikhism. According to each other’s religious learning they speak. But, in terms of foundation, when we look at the four religious ways, their principles are basically one. To have faith in God and to see God in all, this is their subject.’

(Baba Teja Singh, transcript of a recording, 9-03-2001)

Guru ji himself established the Nirmalay, HE himself instituted them and I am saddened and sickened to see such disrespect to our Guru's own institution.

[>Bikramjit Singh<]

It's not just Khalsa Fauji, there is no PROOF or EVIDENCE that the Gurus created any sampardha be it Nirmalas, Nihangs, Udasis or Sewapanthis. Guru Gobind Singh created the KHALSA panth. The old wives tales of Nirmalas being sent to Kashi do not figure in any of the contemporary literature of the time of Guru Gobind Singh or even during the times of Banda Singh Bahadur or the Misls. Nirmalas start to appear in the literature of the early 19th century just as the KHALSA (nor Nihangs) have taken over the Punjab from the Mughals and Afghans. Just then also the Udasis start to get land grants from the Misldars citing their 'links' to Sikhi.

Baba Deep Singh was a KHALSA and not a Nihang or Nirmala.

Just because a Mahapurush like Sant Attar Singh Ji went to a Nirmala school during his childhood doesn't make him a Nirmala. During the times of Maharaja Ranjit Singh many learned people were getting grants from the state to run schools in their areas. Nirmalas were in the forefront of this and so it is not surprising that many famous Sikh personages went to Nirmala schools. It doesn't make them Nirmalas! If Sant Attar Singh was a Nirmala or Nirmala inspired why would one of his most famous acts be propagating what you would call 'ferengi agrenzi sgpc akali panth'? Would Santji be propagating Nirmala ideas or even Sanatan Sikhi? He even asked a number of his students in the 1920's to move to Canada and England to propagate 'ferengi agrenzi sgpc akali panth' in these countries. Santji's followers formed the Akal Academies which with the other modern schools have made the Nirmala schools virtually extinct.

The SGPC maryada was made Panth Pravanit, the fact that they invited Nirmalas to the meetings just shows that they wanted everyone to have their input into the maryada. If they hadn't you would be accusing them of being extremist and close minded blah blah blah.. oh and don't forget fanatic

People who create conspiracy theories about the formation of the SGPC maryada and just doing it because the maryada they follow is different. Follow whichever maryada you are happy with and follow it with all your heart. Trying to badmouth one maryada will lead to other people creating conspiracy theories about your maryada, just as Taksal has about Bhai Randhir Singh accepting Raagmaala during his last moments.

[Kharkoo4Life]

Guru ji himself established the Nirmalay, HE himself instituted them and I am saddened and sickened to see such disrespect to our Guru's own institution

Fateh,

Before you begin asserting the grandeur and magnificence of the Nirmalas perhaps you should take some time to study and critically analyze their origins.

The common story goes that Guru Gobind Singh sent some Sikhs to the holy city of Kashi, Benaras to learn Sanskrit and to establish a center for higher education in Punjab for the purpose of training scholars on Gurmat as well as puratan Hindu theologies, mythology. This group of Sikhs in turn trained many scholars of Sikh theology, who are well recognized in the Sikh history.

Now let us consider this alleged happening with a critical eye:

How did Guru Gobind Singh’s predecessors manage to preach Gurmat without having “Sikhs educated in Sanskrit at Kashi?” Its amazing that Sikh scholars who from one side of their mouth proclaim loudly that our Gurus enlightened the people with their liberating philosophy in the language of the masses while from the other side of their mouth insist that Sanskrit education is needed to understand this philosophy. This flies in the face of the evidence that the Sikh Gurus rejected the moral authority of Hindu scriptures and the essentials of Hinduism. Probably, this story was fabricated by the opponents of Sikhism after the death of Guru Gobind Singh, who have successfully transformed Sikhism into a religion of baseless Brahmnical rituals and ceremonies, far and far removed from the teachings of AGGS.

The writings of Bhai Santokh Singh contain many stories and interpretations that contradict the teachings of AGGS.

Besides, it is a myth that Guru Gobind Singh sent some Sikhs in disguise to Kashi to learn Sanskrit from the Brahmans. Nirmalas (holy man) claim that Sikhs, who were sent in disguise by Guru Gobind Singh to Kashi to learn Sanskrit from Brahmans, founded their organization. Did Guru Gobind Singh indulge in deception to get his Sikhs educated in Sanskrit? It is logical that Brahmans, who had (have) no moral revulsion about ascribing immoral acts to their own gods and goddesses, made up this story. Furthermore, it seems reasonable to believe that Brahmans started this organization in Sikh disguise. The story of Nirmalas is full of holes. There is no evidence that Guru Gobind Singh’s predecessors sent Sikhs anywhere to learn Sanskrit. What was the need for Sikhs to learn Sanskrit during the time of Guru Gobind Singh?

For the sake of argument, suppose Guru Gobind Singh wanted Sikhs to learn Sanskrit to study ancient Indian literature. Then the question is where did Guru Gobind Singh or Guru Nanak or Guru Arjan learn Saskrit? Did they go to Kashi? Of course not, they learnt Sanskrit where they grew up - in Punjab. This means that Sanskrit teachers were available in Punjab. So what was the particular need for Guru Gobind Singh to send some Sikhs to Kashi to study Sanskrit? Guru Gobind Singh had so many scholars and poets with him at Aandpur; couldn’t he hire few Sanskrit teachers? Were the scholars, who translated Sanskrit texts into Braj Bhasa, not competent enough to teach Sanskrit to Sikhs? Let us suppose further that Guru did send some Sikhs to Kashi. What were their names and where did they come from? Is there any biographical information available about them? What did those Sikhs do with their knowledge of Sanskrit? Did they teach Sanskrit to Sikhs or translated Gurbani into Sanskrit?

Moreover, Nirmala / Mahant organization (Akhara) was started under the patronage of feudal lords, the Rajas of Patiala, Nabha and Jind in 1918.10 There is no surprise in it! Throughout history rulers have used clergy to keep their subjects ignorant like dumb driven cattle so that they could exploit them without any resistance and public out cry. Brahmans used to elevate their rulers to the status of god, for example, Sri Ram Chander Ji and Sri Krishn Ji were rulers. Brahmans even regarded Mulim rulers as God incarnate, Eeshvro va Dilishvro va (The emperor of Delhi is as great as God). Christian clergy used to confer divine rights on their kings and the Muslim clergy used to do the same for their rulers. The Sikh feudal lords used the Nirmalas to keep their people ignorant for easy exploitation. No wonder the Sikhs under the British rule were more educated and more well-off than their counterparts under the rule of Sikh Rajas. Nirmalas /Mahants used to frighten people not only with their curses but also had the legal power to impose fine on Sikhs for refusing to comply with the request of the Mahant.

Now this isnt to say their werent any good, honest people who lived amongst and mixed with the Nirmalas. As with any group, good and rotten apples go side by side. However, as a whole, rather than just blindly accepting this story as true and unquestionable we should use our minds to judge for ourselvs how plausible it is. As our own guru says:

kbIrw jhw igAwnu qh Drmu hY jhw JUTu qh pwpu ]

Kabeer, where there is wisdom, there is righteousness and Dharma. Where there is falsehood, there is sin.

Sikhs have a tendency to accept anything which someone links or menitons in the same sentence as Guru Gobind Singh to accept as being absolutely true and unquestionable. Yes Guru Gobind Singh was completely true and perfect but does this mean that any story one conjures up and simply adds his name to also becomes true? ALl these janamsakhis, granths, deras, taksals how many of them are true jus cuz the Gurus name was writtne by the author on the page and how many of them are actually true cuz they are in accordance with gurmat.

Is our reference base for measuring the truth to a story some baba, sants, or "maha purash"'s spoken or written words or is it Guru Granth Sahib?

ALso on this same topic with regards to the various rehatnamas ppl so eagerly quote as proof for the validity of the stories or customs and rituals we must ask ourselves: Extensive research is needed to determine who wrote the Rehit Namae, and when? One thing is clear that no RehitNama was written by Guru Gobind Singh, otherwise it would have been included in Dasam Granth (which itself deserves a whole thread but for some odd reason is banned from discussion, and that too on a forum dedicated to discussing issues of concern to Sikhi..how odd?). Anyways, it seems that Rehit Namae were written in the 18th century by Sikh writers, who assigned them to close associates of Guru Gobind Singh like Bhai Nanad Lal, Bhai Dya Singh, Bhai Chaupa Singh and others to enhance their value and acceptance by the Sikhs. It is possible that Bhai Nand Lal and others might have written some parts of these compositions. However, a closer look at the contents, details and style of the language reveals that probably they were written after 1720.

Some of the contents of some Rehit Namae are not consistent with Gurmat. For example, Brahman authors have excessively praised Brahmans, used abusive language against Muslims and advocated against the learning of Farsi and Arabic, and Desa Singh has advocated the use of opium, marijuana and alcohal.”

Moreover, aren’t the injunctions in AGGS sufficient to guide the Sikhs? AGGS is the Guru -- “the Eternal Guru” for a Sikh! Didn’t Guru Gobind Singh confer spiritual Guruship on the teachings of AGGS?

[>Bikramjit Singh<]

Great post Kharkoo4life!

You are 100% spot on about Sikhs willing to accept any story that anyone conjures up about Guru Gobind Singh. Take a look at the number of stories some kathakars are dreaming up, many of which are totally against Gurbani. Just as we are getting more and more Sakhis being made up by some kathakars, we are also now getting the nice and neat pidgeonholing of prominant Khalsa Sikhs into Nihangs, Nirmalas and Sewapanthis!