Sinister: Lost In Translations

[LostSoul]

SINISTER: "actually pictures in granth are not a bad idea, after all, a picture can be worth a thousand words! why didnt the guru's put in pictures? lol thats a funny question but an interesting one? I beleive a "romantic" element might have enriched the faith a little (although it is being done by many contemporary sikh art of today)"

Sinister there is a line between sarcasm, and questioning, Please refer to our Guru as Guru Granth Sahib, or if your in such a hurry SGGS should suffice. That comment you made came across as very rude and ill thought. The Gurus did not allow for pictures for the simple reason that the people would begin to worship the painting rather than the word. You can see people today, Sikhs all over bowing or folding their hands towards a painting that might of looked nothing like our Gurus. In India they are now making statues of the Gurus, which many come and bow to. In my personal opinon I think the portraits should be removed form every Gurudwara and Sikh home, and we should stop getting caught up by these distractions, (please dont turn this into a picture forum stick to topic, we will start a new topic on that)

Brother Sinister please think before you post.

[Kharkoo4Life]

Fateh,

Bro, you accuse me of lashing out at you but i beg to differ. What i think the truth is that you have been determined to makechallenging and destructive criticisms about SIkhi hoping to find flaws in it from the start but find ourself corrected each time. I've posed countless questions for you in my posts yet you choose to ignore them and instead post another heap of baseless commentary hoping no one notices that you have no responses to my questions. Each time u pose a question or make a remark against Sikhi Sidhaant i have embraced the challenge and done my best to defend and enlighten you about the actual philosophy of Gurmat. You on the other hand readily skim over my questions posed for u without even a hint of acknowledgement. Is it that you are stumped and have no responses to give or are you afraid to show your true feelings and opnions regarding the matter. If you wish to maintain the spirit of a true debate/discussion i suggest you scroll back to my previous posts and sincerely re-read my questions and provide answers to them.

why didnt the guru's put in pictures? lol thats a funny question but an interesting one? I beleive a "romantic" element might have enriched the faith a little (although it is being done by many contemporary sikh art of today)

If you remember, i was one of the first persons who defended your right to express your opnions and raise questions while others jumped to attack you. I still defend this right of yours but only so long as you raise questions and criticism in the best interests of the Panth and not for meaningless selfish scholarly debate. Up until recently i have been impressed by your questioning and willingness to talk bout rarely discusses aspects of Sikhi, but as of late the tone of ur posts has shifted dramatically. You my friend have let ur passion to debate and argue override you and in the process have begun making comments very inappropriate and offensive towards the Guru. Granted those with very little knowledge may make such commnets and they shud be forgiven for their innocent remarks, but u are obviously fairely well read and know better then to make comments which a Sikh would for surely take to heart.

You consider the topic of gurus and pictures funny? Is the fact that so many of the Guru's sacrificed their entire lives, families and associates for the sake of defending their dharam, a dharam which is STRICTLY AGAINST ALL IDOL/PICTORIAL worship also funny to u? Perhaps if u considered ur questioning in light of the historical background of Sikhi you wouldnt have been so quick to make such remarks.

Then you say that a "romantic element" might have enriched the faith? I take serious offense to such an offensive remark made against the Guru. There is only so much even the most calm, well-mannered and patient Sikh will tolerate against his faith until he will rise and defend its very core for the sake of perserving his Sikhi's honour. Obviously by such primitve remarks it is clear you have very little knowledge of gurbani, which my brother is the eseence of our faith. You feel the need to add an outside element to "enrich" our faith but maybe if u read the faith itself (gurbani) you urself might be enriched!

You think Guru Nanak lacked romantic element in his teachings:

jau qau pRym Kylx kw cwau ]If you desire to play this game of love with Me,

Awpy bhu ibiD rMgulw sKIey myrw lwlu ]

He Himself loves in so many ways. O sister soul-brides, He is my Beloved.

myry pRIqmw mY quJ ibnu Avru n koie ]

O my Beloved, I have no one except You.

Do u not feel enough "romantic element" in the words of Guru Nanak, or do u still feel the need to perhaps add the lyrics of whitman or shakespeare?

I really am thinking for the betterment of sikhi here, i dunno where you get the idea that I'm some anti-sikh. I do come off as a critic, i admit to that, but critiquing I beleive is essential to learning. Think of it this way, no-one would have conceived of this question had it not been addressed/asked, i think we where discussing something novel here.

You were so eager to lash out at me that you lost all objectivity within your speech!

if your thinking of the betterment of sikhi, shoudlnt your focus be on spreading the word of sikhi, which is gurbani? And in order to do this shouldnt you first learn it yourself? Or do u already posses enought knowledge about sikhi that gurbani is just an added but non-vital accesory for u? I never called u an anti-sikh, what i said is that your criticism which was intially constructive and done in positive manner has taken a turn to destructive criticism. You are too engrossed in just making your own points and proving others wrong (tho until now ive yet to see you prove any of my remakrs wrong) and have lost the sincere passion to learn.

Perhaps you should reexamine your own posts and see who is the one who has lost objectivity in their speech. If you disagree wtih me i shall leave it up to the sangat to decide for themselves who is still making sense and who is teetering on the brink of nonsense.

All I'm saying is that we should we be compiling gurmukhi and translating into a standardized english version rather than relying on Individual translations?

This is definitely not the only thing you have been saying. If you have so quickly forgotten your own remarks feel free to read my posts as ive quoted ur own words as to what you been saying. Youve been highly critical of the need for gurmukhi, something which has already been accepted and passed by the panth. So what authority do u have to override that?

This has been done with all the major religious doctrines out their that i know of, and what is your response a lash out, a retention of some high orthodoxian sikh conservative veiw that everyone should know gurmukhi or else they can't become sikh (what if they dont have the means to learn gurmukhi, you speek with the tongue of a RICH man, people have more important things to worry about like SURVIVAL), hhhmmmm typical in most sikhs, but I didn't expect that from you kharkoo.

Again, why accuse me. You shud accuse the panth as a whole for saying gurmukhi is important. Fourteen years of research went into making that decision but im sure the 14 minutes you spent on analyzing the necessity for gurmukhi is much more valuable to the panth. And if u read my posts properly for once instead of jumping to attack ud see that i never said other means to learn gurbani are wrong. In fact i encourage others to use as many tools as necessary to understand gurbani, but the END GOAL shud always be to understand gurmukhi itself, for the true message of bani will forever remain in the form the guru gave us. No mortal can ever change that.

This is what I meant when i said in my very first post that our faith has become "static". Sikhi has a large diaspora and the message of guru's must reach out to everyone, the rich and the poor, the smart and the dum-dums!!!

And how exactly will the "dum-dums" benefit and gain any insight about sikhi from ur high pedestal, scholarly lexicon? If u wish to truly spread the message to the masses perhaps you should try to share ur views in a manner understnable by the masses. Any man who desires can easily show off his vast vocab with easy reference to a thesaurus but this does not prove one is knowledgable. True sign of knowledge is being able to communicate and share that knowledge with ALL those around u. IF half the ppl cant understand what u saying, n to quote u sounds like "jibberish" to them, then to what benefit is ur effort?

How is a sikh situated in Auckland New Zealand suppose to learn gurmukhi? unless he flies back to the mother land, sits down with some scholars and spends more money on classes! AND DONT GIVE ME "ON YOUR OWN", NO ONE CAN LEARN ON THERE OWN, UNLESS THEY REFER BACK TO ALREADY EXISTING TRANSLATIONS AND EXPLANATIONS THAT HAVE NOT BEEN STANDARDIZED.

Well u may be shocked to learn this, but Sikhs reside in nearly every country in this world and there are always some who know gurmukhi. If not, one can easily learn it online with many programs. COuntless kids in canada, us, uk learn gurmukhi all wihtou ever having stepped foot in punjab so cant others too. And granted if sikhs dont reside in area of concern, then does that mean gurmukhi becomes unimportant? It is our own fault as a Panth for failing to invest time and effort in spreading the tools to teach gurmukhi to these ppl. As ive said many times before, using enligsh,or other languages to intially get someone attracted to Sikhi is fyne and in many cases necessary but as the person comes to understand more n more about Sikhi they should make honest efforts to learn gurmukhi.

We learn the natural and physical Sciences so that we can ensure our survival, maybe land a job in the near future, people do that you know, that unfit sentence you never mention or probably doesn't even exist in your magical world, "work for money to ensure survival".

And ur point is...? I never once said dont make money or dont work. Of course u need to survive that is a moot point sinister. U talk of ensuring surivival of ur PHYSICAL BEING, money for food, clothes, shelter which of course is necessary and i encourage, but why do u not mention surival of the SPIRITUAL BEING? U cannot provide nourishment for that thru natural or phsyical sciences. Which library textbook will ensure surivival of ur soul bro? That is where shabad gurbani comes in. Somethin i think more n more may not exist in "your magical world"

I tried to separate opinion from observation in this argument but somehow got sucked back to the subjective pole.

Apart from some well intentined n well written intial posts in the other thread, most of ur posts have been based on nothing but opnion. So do not worry that you are doing it again, for it seems youve found somethin u excel at. :lol:

"Uve learned english and no one forced u to with a gun to ur head" --> THERE IS A GUN AT MY HEAD, IF I DONT LEARN ENGLISH I AM AN ILITERATE, NO JOB, NO MONEY, ENTAILED BY DEATH OR WELFARE IF YOU LIVE IN A NICE COUNTRY (might as well point a gun at head..it would be the same amount of social strain)

So are all the countless immigrant parents who came to this country or still reside here and can barely speak or read english all dead or all on welfare? Thousands of these "illiterates" live n work honestly day n night, providing endlessly for their families and communities and they are still surviving quite wonderfuly. Perhaps u live in a special community where english examinations are conducted with armed examiners. :umm:

Ive neer said that one doesnt need to know english. In fact if u read my posts for once u will see that i agree its necessary in this land so what exactly is ur point bro?

Ask yourself, why dont the people that clean toilets at my big koti not follow sikhi, they would if they could get the apropriate standardized explanation to what it all means. They dont have the resource to go out an learn gurmukhi, and neither is their any gurdawara out their that will provide them the resources to learn gurmukhi (a matter of fact these people would most likely be thrown out). However if a standardized version is present then, tadaaa, an enlightened state can be acheived by anyone regardless of class and mental capacity!

Well i dont know which koti u live in but mine is neither big and the toilet cleanin is often done by me! And are u trying to say that someone with a menial job is incapable of learning gurbani? They may not be loaded but one does not have to be to learn Sikhi. Maybe if dedicated Sikhs as urself volunteered their times to teach others rather than whine how hard it is they cud learn it. And if anyone cud benefit from a "one shot -tadaa" approach to reaching a state of enlightemnt im sure it wud be, for it seem that is what u are searchin for. And how do u relate class and metnal capacity as hinderances to learning gurbani? Do u think gurbani is inherently discriminatory to certain people? Seems like ur logic is gettin more absurd with each post. Again as ive said countless times, nothing wrong in these people first learnin in their own mother tongues (i.e. translated versions) to get them started, in fact i encourage it, but eventually they shud aim to learn gurmukhi!

Kharkoo an elitist personality emerges from your words, not very sikh like if I may say so. You show a very conservative attitude that will NOT benefit this faith at all, but segragate it so that only the few fortunate can enjoy its fruitful words. How can we make our faith more appealing to the masses? well for starters it has to be translated properly so that the masses can understand what the hell is going on! How can we spread the word of the guru's? How can other faiths take us seriously if we have no stance upon which we can translate our faith to them, reach out to them?

If anybody has aspirations to come out as an elitist i must say, and im sure most will agree, it is you. Ive always remained respectful and considerate of ur views, and if considered myself so above u, why wud i even bother or waste time to write such lengthy replies? U seem to haev a knack of criticizing everone for not being very sikh like. Perhaps you in ur infinite wisdom can enlighten the whole sangat as to what a true sikh is like, since ur understanding and knowledge of gurbani is just breathtaking.

As for making it more appealing to the masses, maybe if u first understood it u wud be in a position to spread it. But if u urself dont know it yet what kind of message do u hope to spread? U think i am some sort of blind-faith, non-liberal thinking tradionalist who despises any attempts to bring in construtive growth within our faith, well i feel compelled to share with u that i have always myself made attempts, and still am, to translate and explain gurbani in simple english so that as many people can understand and benifit from it as possible. And yes, many times my work contains diagrams and pictorials as well, so maybe u too may learn something from it! :umm:

Theres essentially two paths we can take

1) Do not make a standardized translated version and continue to remain an anonomous faith whos teachings are never fully understood by other faiths in this world.

2) Make standardized copies, so that hundreds and thousands of more people may learn to the faith, and risk the dangers involved. (but remember the original will always be there to remind us, I am definetily not insisting as to throw it away).

so what if theirs a new standardized granth coming out every year, we will always have the original so theirs nothing to worry about.

I have never objected to makin standardized translations of gurbani, in fact i been workin on it myself. However, one thing is a must that these translations should never replace the original in any setting. Yes we should translate the teahings of gurbani into as many language as possible. But for purposes of parkaash, matha taik, gurdwaras etc only the original SGGS in gurmukhi saroops should be sanctioned. All other versions can exist but only as side references for explanation, and not as a Guru Granth in themselves.

[dreamman]

I totally agree with u kharkoo bro... you know wat i am also like sinister... my friends says that I can do debate as long as I can if i know the subject and even if I dont know the subject still i can debate for one or two hours....lol....

but in terms of gurbani where I a learner of nursery class i never debate coz this is not a debatable issue as I cant debate on my guru...

Fateh