Sinister: God, Our Commander And Cheif

[Sinister]

Heres a translation I found @

http://www.sikhs.org/english/frame.html

This is a translation of the first few lines of Jap Ji

By thinking, He cannot be reduced to thought, even by thinking hundreds of thousands of times. By remaining silent, inner silence is not obtained, even by remaining lovingly absorbed deep within. The hunger of the hungry is not appeased, even by piling up loads of worldly goods. Hundreds of thousands of clever tricks, but not even one of them will go along with you in the end. So how can you become truthful? And how can the veil of illusion be torn away? O Nanak, it is written that you shall obey the Hukam of His Command, and walk in the Way of His Will. || 1 || By His Command, bodies are created; His Command cannot be described. By His Command, souls come into being; by His Command, glory and greatness are obtained. By His Command, some are high and some are low; by His Written Command, pain and pleasure are obtained. Some, by His Command, are blessed and forgiven; others, by His Command, wander aimlessly forever. Everyone is subject to His Command; no one is beyond His Command. O Nanak, one who understands His Command, does not speak in ego. || 2 || Some sing of His Power-who has that Power? Some sing of His Gifts, and know His Sign and Insignia. Some sing of His Glorious Virtues, Greatness and Beauty. Some sing of knowledge obtained of Him, through difficult philosophical studies. Some sing that He fashions the body, and then again reduces it to dust. Some sing that He takes life away, and then again restores it.

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Some sing that He seems so very far away. Some sing that He watches over us, face to face, ever-present. There is no shortage of those who preach and teach. Millions upon millions offer millions of sermons and stories. The Great Giver keeps on giving, while those who receive grow weary of receiving. Throughout the ages, consumers consume. The Commander, by His Command, leads us to walk on the Path. O Nanak, He blossoms forth, Carefree and Untroubled. || 3 || True is the Master, True is His Name-speak it with infinite love. People beg and pray, "Give to us, give to us", and the Great Giver gives His Gifts.

.............................So what offering can we place before Him, by which we might see the Darbaar of His Court? What words can we speak to evoke His Love? In the Amrit Vaylaa, the ambrosial hours before dawn, chant the True Name, and contemplate His Glorious Greatness. By the karma of past actions, the robe of this physical body is obtained. By His Grace, the Gate of Liberation is found.

First Question:

Is this a good translation? Is the scholar pure in the message?

If you think no then do not proceed to the second question and simply state where and how the scholar is off his mark.

Second Question:

do our guru's go on to state the purpose of life and why god created life? In a way they do. The purpose the scholar said is to praise and never forget god. Live by gods teachings and practice his "WILL", through a mandate.

Now,

my question lies therein:

Did God create us so that we can praise him and beg from him? (From the proof above, we see the emergeance of a slave mentallity in our religion, where a human is reduced to a corrupt, insensitive fool that is blinded. If your read the words above you will see that Sikhi is an all out attack on humanity with the utmost hostility). Does God want us to beg from him? Why does He keep answering the calls of the beggars?

GOD GAVE US LIFE, HE OWES US SOMETHING IN RETURN, DONT HUMANS HAVE A RIGHT TO BEG! WHEN A CHILD BEGS HIS MOTHER FOR COMFORT AND SUPPORT ITS NORMAL, BUT WHEN WE BEG GOD FOR OUR SHARE THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN ITS SIN? A MOTHER ALWAYS CARES FOR HER CHILDREN, SHOULDNT GOD BE OBLIGED TO DO THE SAME? DO WE THANK OUR MOTHER WHEN WE ARE INFANTS...DO WE PRAISE HER NAME AND GIVE THANKS...SHE PUT US IN THIS WORLD AND SHOULDNT SHE LOOK OVER US AND CARE FOR US?

Khanda question: the double edged sword Question:

Why would God create beings if all he wanted was complete despostism over our souls? Is God that insecure? Does he need the praise and small utterances of thanks of mere human souls just to remind him of his greatness? or do we do these small utterances of thanks to remind ourselves of his greatness; either way the question rounds about to WHY? *why does god want us to remember and not forget his greatness?*

Why should we praise God? sure he's given us life, a universe and a mind. OHH but what a corrupt mind he has given us! A mind that is torn apart to peices if it thinks too hard, a mind that is so fragile that if it reads a few words it gets pushed from one pole to the other.

Why give us life, what purpose does god see in this. Is he playing games in which we are his toys, is god toiling with us? Is not god torturing us? Is he not making us jump through hoops so that we can end our cycle of birth and re-birth?

Is life a gift from god? was it his intention to create life or was it all by chance (deism)?

Until we answer these questions, religion will continue to face the possiblity of extinction...because it will no longer serve its purpose...the very first purpose it set out to develop....the meaning of life!

this argument, we are aware is shrouded in pessimism and skepticism, none-the- less its a valid objective questioning for such a forum. It can only be answered via opinion. I am not asking for anyone to describe God, But merely think for yourselves of his intentions when he created humanity.

Our understanding is that for every action their is an intention.....I know I have applied that theory to God....but we must (god must have created life because he had an intention or drive to do something). Is this argument valid? Or is God something that is without purpose, direction and intention.

I do not want to inflame everyone with rage! Just get out of your seats and think the unthinkable (or think that which is without answer)...it may enrich our lives. Or is this type of thinking sinful? should we remain silent on such issues, supress them into the deep voids of our mind and continue to praise the unknown, the unintentional, the ultimate torturer, our very own "commander and cheif"....GOD?

Question 3:

Should we praise God? or should god praise us? He gives our existance meaning and purpose but doesn't humanity return the favour?

What would God be without Humanity? How boring would this world be without Evil?

How would we tell between good and evil if everyone did good and evil ceased to exist?

Doesn't god need evil in order to exist and give purpose to his existance?

To the sangat:

No ones right or wrong on this post, just add your opinion to all of my questions and it will be accepted without debate. But I ask now that you do not turn to gurbani for answers (I dont think you will find answers their...i could be wrong) but turn to the constructs of your minds that have been developed from reciting preaching and practicing gurbani.

cheers everyone.

[curious_man]

excelent post... thats the very thing i m confused into !!

anywys b4 anyone answer...

i have already discussed something similir to it long time ago...better look into it too !!

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=10644&hl=

may Vaheguru gives us more knowledge !!

[Sinister]

yea, but i found it necessary to re-verbulate your questions.

You didnt put alot of emphasis in your questioning...but nonetheless thanyou for your reply.

[Jai Tegang!]

Sinister, you're wasting away your time like this.

Take a month off...wake up at 2am every morning and start doing Japji sahib. Keep doing it all day.

Who knows, you might just be given understanding of one line of Japji sahib and then your life will be forever changed.

Or you could spend your life time with being a critical thinker, thinking of questions left and right. It'll give you nothing.

If you really want something, please go learn Japji sahib somehow (buy a cd and read along). Just listen and recite it first. Just keep doing this. Don't let your critical mind stop you at every sentence and question question question.

If you really want something, stop this cycle you've fallen in, break out of this mindset.

I'm not here to debate, so if this message doesn't suit you, then just ignore.

p.s. if you want a really nice nitnem recording with Japji sahib done at a slow pace and superb pronounciation for easy following, do PM me.

[WGJKKWGJKF]

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

God created us as a expression of his love.

Because God's full of love and he is basically love.

But to express his love he created us.

Just like in marriage, wife n husband want to make babies as a expression of thier love.

Hope that helped.

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

thudhh aapae aap oupaaeiaa ||

You Yourself created the Universe;

dhoojaa khael kar dhikhalaaeiaa ||

You created the play of duality, and staged it.

(Guru Nanak Dev Ji, Siree Raag, 73).

Who are the actors to question the Writer of the Play?

[Kharkoo4Life]

Fateh,

Sinister Ji,

As always i welcome your questions, for even tho to someone with a deeper understanding of SIkhi Sidhaant ur questions may seem misplaced i do at the same time recognize that not everyone has a strong and clear understanding of SIkhi and how it applies in our lives. Most view it simply as another religion, which they have been told by their parents, granthis, elders that they should follow without giving any clear reasoning behind as to why they should follow it or what qualities within Sikhi set it apart from other religions. Thus most youth (and adults) grow up with countless unanswered questions in their mind to which they find very few resources/ppl wiling to openly adress and answer them. They practice Sikhi from the outside with great pride and love, but within their minds they still lack a clarity and full grasp of Sikhi that used to be the norm amongst the SIkhs during the times of the Guru.

It is in this light that i recognize the importance of your questions and invaluable need to disccuss, adress and answer them

Before i do, i must make one thing absolutely clear. Your whole approach to understanding Sikhi is wrong. By this i do not mean ur desire to question it, for this is essential in any aspect of a Sikhs life, but rather the avenue you take to find answers to your questions. Your whole post begins with a reference to Gurbani:

Heres a translation I found @

http://www.sikhs.org/english/frame.html

This is a translation of the first few lines of Jap Ji

U then go on to quote gurbani, use it as a base to formulate questions about the philosophy and theology of SIkhi. So far this is an admirable approach, for it shows that at least you are somewhat reading gurbani and trying to understand it rather than merely recite it over n over every day like some magical mantra. But then in the end of the post you make a remark which completely contradicts your intial approach and highlights the inevitablity that ur questions will never end, and the answers u are provided will never satisfy you.

You make the direct request to all readers of this forum that:

To the sangat:

No ones right or wrong on this post, just add your opinion to all of my questions and it will be accepted without debate. But I ask now that you do not turn to gurbani for answers (I dont think you will find answers their...i could be wrong) but turn to the constructs of your minds that have been developed from reciting preaching and practicing gurbani.

You formulate ALL your questions from gurbani yet do not wish others to seek answers from the same gurbani?? What kind of logic is that. Its akin to saying i have questions on my physics homework listed in my textbook but i do not want to look for the answers to those questions in the same textbook. Would u rather search a psychology or perhaps biology textbook for those answers? My brother, if u have questions about gurbani, which most ppl, including myself have, then u must seek answers to those questions from gurbani as well.

I've told u many times, that gurbani is the basis of Sikhi, wihtout gurbani there is no Sikhi. SO if u wish to understand SIkhi, ALL ANSWERS MUST COME FROM GURBANI. Ohterwise the SIkhi u wish to practice will be based on individual reasoning and not the reasoning of the GUru.

Again u seem either confused or purposely running in circles when later u suggest that we turn to the constructs of our mind, which have been developed from preaching and practicing gurbani. If that mindset and thinking of that person is developed from gurbani as u urself admit, shouldnt they be using the same gurbani to provide answers? If our thoughts and reasoning has been formed on the basis of gurbani shudnt that same gurbani be used to assess the validity of those thoughts.

One thing which is critical to understand it the difference between manmut vs. gurmat. Manmut entails one who places his own invidual thinking, laced in the perception that i myself can figure things out, that things i figure out, or reasoning that i can develop on my own is better or superior to any other. Gurmat is the mindset that what my Guru tells me, that the reasoning of my GUru, what he teaches me is supereme and that no individual, no other resource is above it. It is only when one enters into the quest of understanding SIkhi with this mindset of humility that they are able to set aside their own ego-ladden wisdom and truly understand and appreciate the wisdom of the GUru. Otherwise the constant battle of why, why why will never end.

I would of been more than glad provide u with answers to all ur questions, but as my questions are all based on gurbani, i do not see the point in sharing them for u are more than likely to ingnore them as u urself stated that u do not seek answers from gurbani. Untili u change that thinking, u shall remain a stranger to the Guru and skeptic of Sikhi.

[humble_kaur]

Fateh Sinister Veer Ji,

I found myself in the same dilemma of questioning what translations are best when trying to understand Gurbani. But, by merely reading the translations, not understanding the concepts, the underlying meaning of what Guru Ji is trying to say really becomes pointless. Instead of asking the credibility of the translation, ask the question what is Guru Ji saying to me?

Like many times before, you have fallen prey to literal meanings of Gurbani. I myself am still learning. This is what I have come to learn what Guru Ji is saying. Once again, my interpretations, is what I understand, so please forgive me.

socY soic n hoveI jy socI lK vwr ]

Ritual purification, though million-fold, may not purify the mind.

cupY cup n hoveI jy lwie rhw ilv qwr ]

By Remaining silent, inner silence is not obtained, even by remaining lovingly absorbed deep within.

Even if I wash myself a million times, I cannot become pure. By keeping my body clean, does not make my mind remain pure and clean. Even if I meditate with concentration, my mind will still remain unsettled. You can recite Nitnem as many times as you want. You can do sewa of Guru Ji. But, if you think by merely doing this, and reciting Gurbani, you will attain God, then you are sadly mistaken. For all these things do not make your mind pure. It is through understanding and experiencing the Shabad.

BuiKAw BuK n auqrI jy bMnw purIAw Bwr ]

The hunger of the hungry is not appeased, even by piling up loads of worldly goods.

shs isAwxpw lK hoih q iek n clY nwil ]

Hundreds of thousands of clever tricks, but not even one of them will go along with you in the end.

Even if I house all the riches in the world, my desire will still not be fulfilled. Even if I obtain all the skills and knowledge of the world, not one skill will give me guidance. You seem to always be referring to scholars in helping you to find answers. Regardless of what they tell you, or what you read, they can still not comprehend the essence of God.

ikv sicAwrw hoeIAY ikv kUVY qutY pwil ]

So how can you become truthful? And how can the veil of illusion be torn away?

hukim rjweI clxw nwnk iliKAw nwil ]1]

O Nanak, it is written that you shall obey the Hukam of His Command, and walk in the Way of His Will. ||1||

How can I become suitable, capable of this enlightenment of God? How can I remove this veil of falsehood? How can I break away from this falsehood? By following the Hukam of God, by living in the Hukam of God. If you follow what Guru Ji has so humbly given to us, the teachings, God’s Word, in Sri Guru Sahib Ji, then you can experience God, His Love.

hukmI hovin Awkwr hukmu n kihAw jweI ]

By His Command, bodies are created; His Command cannot be described.

hukmI hovin jIA hukim imlY vifAweI ]

By His Command, souls come into being; by His Command, glory and greatness are obtained.

By His Hukam, all beings are created, our bodies, our appearances. We cannot describe what His Hukam is. By His Hukam, all living beings are born and by His Hukam we are praised of our virtues and gunn.

hukmI auqmu nIcu hukim iliK duK suK pweIAih ]

By His Command, some are high and some are low; by His Written Command, pain and pleasure are obtained.

ieknw hukmI bKsIs ieik hukmI sdw BvweIAih ]

Some, by His Command, are blessed and forgiven; others, by His Command, wander aimlessly forever.

In His Hukam, some become good, and some become bad. In His Hukam, whatever we do in our life, be it good or bad, we benefit or suffer from the consequences. In His Hukam we are either blessed with His Blessings, or we keep on being incarnated in this cycle of life and death.

hukmY AMdir sBu ko bwhir hukm n koie ]

Everyone is subject to His Command; no one is beyond His Command.

nwnk hukmY jy buJY q haumY khY n koie ]2]

O Nanak, one who understands His Command, does not speak in ego. ||2||

All of us are in His Hukam. No one can go beyond His Hukam. Once we realize His Hukam, we do not talk of self interest anymore. We lose all forms of selfishness. We become humble. Our actions are not for us anymore, our actions, our thoughts, only radiate in the depiction of God.

gwvY ko qwxu hovY iksY qwxu ]

Some sing of His Power-who has that Power?

gwvY ko dwiq jwxY nIswxu ]

Some sing of His Gifts, and know His Sign and Insignia.

If one has the capability, he sings of the strength and power of God. Some sing of his riches and wealth, think of Him as a sign.

gwvY ko gux vifAweIAw cwr ]

Some sing of His Glorious Virtues, Greatness and Beauty.

gwvY ko ividAw ivKmu vIcwru ]

Some sing of knowledge obtained of Him, through difficult philosophical studies.

Some sing of His Virtues, Greatness and Beauty. Some try to understand His Gyan by the means of knowledge and education.

gwvY ko swij kry qnu Kyh ]

Some sing that He fashions the body, and then again reduces it to dust.

gwvY ko jIA lY iPir dyh ]

Some sing that He takes life away, and then again restores it.

Some sing that God creates us, then he reduces us to dust again. Some even sing that God takes life from one, and then puts life into another.

gwvY ko jwpY idsY dUir ]

Some sing that He seems so very far away.

gwvY ko vyKY hwdrw hdUir ]

Some sing that He watches over us, face to face, ever-present.

Some people say that God seems very far away, He is unreachable. But some say He is very near, He is ever present. He is looking over everyone.

kQnw kQI n AwvY qoit ]

There is no shortage of those who preach and teach.

kiQ kiQ kQI kotI koit koit ]

Millions upon millions offer millions of sermons and stories.

Millions of people have tried many times to preach and obtain the knowledge of God, but they were unable to attain the rus of the Shabad. They were unable to realize, to find, or recognize the Shabad Guru.

dydw dy lYdy Qik pwih ]

The Great Giver keeps on giving, while those who receive grow weary of receiving.

jugw jugMqir KwhI Kwih ]

Throughout the ages, consumers consume.

God keeps on giving food, wealth, and the riches of the world to us. We, however, on the receiving end get tired of receiving. Every living being has continuously consumed the riches and wealth that God has so generously given us. But how many actually thank him for his immeasurable generosity?

hukmI hukmu clwey rwhu ]

The Commander, by His Command, leads us to walk on the Path.

nwnk ivgsY vyprvwhu ]3]

O Nanak, He blossoms forth, Carefree and Untroubled. ||3||

By His Hukam, we see the path very clearly. He guides us with the teachings of Gurbani. God is without worries; He is content. Through Gurbani, we are taught to live a life of humbleness, so we can also be worry free, and content with what God has given us.

swcw swihbu swcu nwie BwiKAw Bwau Apwru ]

True is the Master, True is His Name-speak it with infinite love.

AwKih mMgih dyih dyih dwiq kry dwqwru ]

People beg and pray, ""Give to us, give to us"", and the Great Giver gives His Gifts.

God is always and will always remain constant, He is always be stable. His Principle, His Word, is everlasting, it is unchangeable. His Words are full of love. God is endless, limitless. WE ask God to bless us with gifts, “Oh Lord, please bestow your gifts upon us. Please give us your blessings.” God still blesses us! God doesn’t request us to beg from Him. He is ever giving, He will still keep on giving gifts to those who do not even recognize Him. Take a look around you, what you have and own. Did you get it all from your own doings? The house and bed you sleep in, were you capable of obtaining them on your own? No. All these things we enjoy in life, they are all His Blessings, His Gifts. HE IS AMAZING!!

Pyir ik AgY rKIAY ijqu idsY drbwru ]

So what offering can we place before Him, by which we might see the Darbaar of His Court?

muhO ik bolxu bolIAY ijqu suix Dry ipAwru ]

What words can we speak to evoke His Love?

What offering can we give to God? What can we place before Him, so that we can see the Light? What should we speak, what ardas should we do, so that by listening to it God will bless us with His Limitless Love? You say that God has given us this life, that he owes US something in return. Once again, take a look around you, what hasn’t HE given you? You say a mother takes care of her child, brings us into this world, and takes care of us, and we never thank her. If you can’t even thank your mother, then what can you possibly thank God for? Once again, I repeat, what hasn’t God blessed us with?

AMimRq vylw scu nwau vifAweI vIcwru ]

In the Amrit Vaylaa, the ambrosial hours before dawn, chant the True Name, and contemplate His Glorious Greatness.

krmI AwvY kpVw ndrI moKu duAwru ]

By the karma of past actions, the robe of this physical body is obtained. By His Grace, the Gate of Liberation is found.

nwnk eyvY jwxIAY sBu Awpy sicAwru ]4]

O Nanak, know this well: the True One Himself is All. ||4||

To obtain salvation, liberation and eternal bliss, we should arise during Amrit Vayla, as this is the time that our mind has not been poisoned by the world yet, and do Nitnem. Remember Him for His greatness. With God’s Blessings we attain the garment of Naam. With God’s Blessings, we are released from all falsehood and in return, find liberation. This way we come to the realization that God is everywhere, all pervading.

God is not insecure; it is our insecurities that we don’t accept Him. He doesn’t need to be reminded how Great He is. God doesn’t ask of you to remember Him. That is your choice alone. Anyone would be a fool to not recognize the generosity of God. God has not given us a corrupt mind. When you are born, God does not send you to this earth with a corrupt mind. YOU and only YOU corrupt the mind yourself. YOU choose what YOUR mind, YOUR thought processes are. NOT GOD! You make it sound like the mind is being punished, but really who puts these extra stresses on the mind? YOU. God told us to live a simple, humble life. YOU choose what you want from the day you were born. So don’t blame God!

You accuse God of playing games with us. You accuse God for torturing us. You know what, the sad truth is, we are playing games with ourselves, we are torturing ourselves. Being in human form is the greatest gift that God has given us. We enjoy the luxuries He has put on this earth. Yet, you fall under the false assumption that God has not given you anything.

Again Sinister Veer Ji. You amaze me with your questioning. “Should God praise us?” Hmmm…let me think. NO! For what? What have we, as Humans shown Him? He has given us so much, and we cannot even graciously remember Him, follow His Teachings. We cannot even take half hour out of our day to devote to Him, and only Him. Our minds start to wander in what we have to do, or what we have done, or what we still have to do. But, God is always with us. His Attention is always with us 24/7. How can you even question His validity? Then you ask the sangat to not use Gurbani in answering your questions. I’m sorry, but the only answers that someone can give you, is by answering with God’s Word. For if you are accusing Him, then He should answer you.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

[UntitledSingh]

Great posts Kharkoo4Life and HumbleKaur :TH:

and Ms514 I really like your line, "Who are the actors to question the Writer of the Play?"

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

Sinister Sahib, please read the following book:

http://www.lotusmedia.co.uk/sikhstudent/Do...ndgi%20Nama.pdf