Patka, Keski Dastar Or None?

[jss]

although veer namastang did take unneccessary potshots at the akj in his earlier posts..i think he's done a better job of expressing his thoughts in his last message...there are several valid points that i think veer jagjit singh and others should address..

especially the one where other girls are not considered amritdhari who don't wear keski...although they adhere fully to akal takt maryada...

i also have a question for jagjit singh ji..since the akj was brought up..

did akal takt say that it is the choice of jathebandis whether to have keski or kes as the kakkar?...like in the case of raagmala...they have given a choice...so some people read and some people don't...i know that the bhinderawalay sants were unhappy with this decision made by akal takt..but still bowed down to the authority of akal takt...

so now..on the sgpc site...the akal takt maryada...has kes listed as kakkar...shouldn't all panthic jathebandis bow down to akal takt authority?..even if they don't agree with the decision..they could lobby akal takt...but at the end of the day...shouldn't we be putting our egos aside and listen to what akal takt says??

i don't mean for any of this to be an attack..i'm just trying to understand the position cuz most people don't directly address this issue...everyone starts to get emotional..i'm hoping people don't do that here...

[The Khalsa Fauj]

although veer namastang did take unneccessary potshots at the akj in his earlier posts..i think he's done a better job of expressing his thoughts in his last message...there are several valid points that i think veer jagjit singh and others should address..

especially the one where other girls are not considered amritdhari who don't wear keski...although they adhere fully to akal takt maryada...

i also have a question for jagjit singh ji..since the akj was brought up..

did akal takt say that it is the choice of jathebandis whether to have keski or kes as the kakkar?...like in the case of raagmala...they have given a choice...so some people read and some people don't...i know that the bhinderawalay sants were unhappy with this decision made by akal takt..but still bowed down to the authority of akal takt...

so now..on the sgpc site...the akal takt maryada...has kes listed as kakkar...shouldn't all panthic jathebandis bow down to akal takt authority?..even if they don't agree with the decision..they could lobby akal takt...but at the end of the day...shouldn't we be putting our egos aside and listen to what akal takt says??

i don't mean for any of this to be an attack..i'm just trying to understand the position cuz most people don't directly address this issue...everyone starts to get emotional..i'm hoping people don't do that here...

146290[/snapback]

Yes, true say!

Give up your ego AKJs.

Follow the Panthic marayda.

Pick it up from local Gurudwara or red it online at

www.SGPC.net

if you got any issues, take it to Akaal Takht and let them handle it.

Being judged fairly isn't guaranteed as Akaal Takht is now controlled by Badal so you guys got to wait until real Panthic Singhs are handling Akaal Takht.

For now, follow Akaal Takht marayda as it is.

It is thousand times better than AKJ one and it is a must for a Sikh of Guru Ji. If you are Sikh of someone else, follow any maryada you want.

[jagjit_waheguru]

waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, it would be wrong for me to act as a spokesperson for AKJ. There alot of knowledgable Gursikhs there, who will be able to answer far better than me. The information about keski is freely available on all the AKJ websites.

However I will answer what little I know, but you have to accept that as my personal opinion, and not official AKJ standing.

First no one is disputing what the Siri Akal Thakht says. Every Gursikh submits to that. I have always been more Panthik than attached to any group. As far as I am aware AKJ does not have a separate official maryada, unlike almost every jathebandie. Instead its has produced documents on which it lobbies the Siri Akal thakht Sahib with points of contention. These points are taken from Pratan sources, which you are all aware of. Others such as Sant Samaj openly condemn the Akal Thakht maryada, and its authors.

I have personally found AKJ to be far more Panthik that most others in Gurdwaras. My personal experiences in the Singh sabha Gurdwaras that we all do seva in, whenever any issue comes up, whether babas, mool manter, jots, maryadas, and many other issues.

I see the Akal Thakht maryada as the minimum level for a Gursikh to be Amritdhari. There may be many issues in it which people disagree with such as 3 banis, meat, etc , but it is the minimum level.

But there are some of us in the Panth, who just do not wish to do the minimum level, and wish to practice sikhi to a level more than that. AKJ is one of them groups which I have found extends ones boundaries, and encourages us to practice more.

Personally if you said to me 8-9 years ago, kes is the kakaar, but everyone should wear a keski. I would be convinced. But time has shown me, in the Sikh missionary cicrles, damdami taksal and others. They all at times promote dastaars, and I believe it is even in the damdami taksal maryada. This is fine. But I have seen in Sikh missionary, bibian who wear dastaars on stages, but then take them off. I came across a bibi in the south who I respected, who assocaites herself with damdami taksal, who wears a dastaar when she is out, but rest of the time does not. When I met her once without her dastaar. I was surprised. Another bibi with me asked her, as she replied kes is the kakkar, I can wear it when I want, and take it off when I want.

Time has also made me realise, people promote dastaar, only when it is convenient. I have heard many white chola sants say on stage kesi in the Roop of the Niara Khalsa, but when they do amrit sanchaar they conveniently forget this. The result has led to a Panth, with the majority of the bibian without dastaars. This has led to far less role models for young girls, who many now do not even wear Karas.

I have never thought of bibian who do not wear keski as lower. In fact, I have never bring the subject up with them, but find they always bring it up with me or my wife. I have see hundreds over the last 10 years been inspired to wear keskis, including most of my extended family. This is not because of indifference but because of pyaar.

So now despite being 100% panthik, I really appreciate AKJ. They are the one group who are hardcore with this vital assol. They actually do what they say. So why condemn them for not being hyprocrites? Surely we should be looking at those who are not doing what they say. People may have digs at them, but the reality is they are one the main reasons bibian even wears dastaars and keski today. Every other group after 1920`s when the Siri Akal Thakht sahib stopped making dastaar mandatory, followed suit. I believe that has been a detrimental factor in them groups and the Panth in general. Some may not agree in public, but in private, even they are now saying in Amrit sanchaars, that dastaar in mandatory now. They just need to now implement in the whole of the group, not just their Uk youth unit. But why condemn those who have this implemented in every unit worldwide.

I find the arguments about keski convincing enough from Pratan sources to wear it myself. I personally would feel naked without a keski on, and walking around with just a kanga. It would feel wrong to me. I am not offended when people say kes is kakaar because it is panthik maryada, and kes is the "mohar" of the Guru. It is probably more important than a kakaar. But in my personal rehit, I accept my keshki as a kakaar.

I have not been offended by any of your remarks. I have answered them in a 100% honest manner as always. So let me ask some of you some questions aswell in the hope you will do the same.

1. If all of you accept dastaar is essential or important, than why do you not promote it?

2. If the rehit maryadas of your groups say dastaar is essential, then why is this not imposed at every Amrit sanchaar?

3. The Akal Thakht rehit maraada insisted on Dastaar pre 1920`s. What steps have you taken to re-introduce and take it back to that maryada?

4. If a man went into an Amrit sanchaar with just a chunni. Will he be given Amrit? If the answer is no, then why are bibis?

5. veer namstang, your link does not work. it only works for subscribers to your site. But I have still to find any manner in which a sikh can honour all of the stipulations laid out by Bhai nand lal ji, without wearing a dastaar.

6. I cannot see AKJ damaging the Panth by being strict on keski, but I can see more damage being done by everyone else not being strict on dastaar, which they all proclaim to support.

7. I also find over time that the people who do most parchaar against AKJ in reference to keskhi, usually when they get married, come to singhs of AKJ to find them a strict dastaar wale bibi. If you are not going to help create them, then why be hypocritical when you get married. Why say all bibian are fine, but I will only be married to a dastaar wale bibi?

8. Why is when bibian are promoted, only keski wale bibian are usually used. When we accept that Roop then surely everybody should work together as a Panth to promote it?

Like I said this is my personal opinion. Please do not use it as offical AKJ line. I find these debates are usually about pratann sources. I have been around long enough enough to know, those who use support one issue, and those who do not when discussing every pratan source, they pick and choose. I look at these things from a practical point with day to day living.

This is why I personally as someone who is 100% Panthik, I do not see AKJ damaging the Panth by being strict. They are not challenging the Panth, but lobbying it. The Panth is more affected by those who see dastaar as something to talk about but not implement, and those who just have completely different idealogues and slate the Panthik marydada, or those who believe the Panthik marada is set in stone, but do not look back to the 1920`s when it was changed in such an ad hoc manner.

Like I said, i did not want this discussion. But now that it is happening lets discuss it in a adult and mature manner.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

[guruvah]

I know personally some people who do parchar againts the Jatha,...

But, when you ask them what kind of Singhni would you want get married to...

they will reply,"Jee, sano ta DASTAR wale Singhni chahede hey". ............

In Singapore, a young Bibi jee(9 ,10 years old one of the singhs daughter) faced problem in school when she wanted to tie Keske.As in this people of part of the world people get SHOCKED that Sikh women too tie dastar.In some part of the world keske parchar is never even done