Quash The Homophobic Sikhs

[Wicked Warrior]

I will not pretend that I have much knowledge of Sikhi.

The Guru has taught me that everyone is equal. Everyone has the same blood running through their veins. Every one has the same spark of Lord within them. The only division in this world that I recognise is that between the Gurmukh and the Manmukh.

The Gurmukh follows the Word of the Lord. He is free from the five demons, including lust. There is only one true form of Love, and that is Love for the Lord. All else is lust.

Men may "love" women. Men may "love" men. Either way, it isn't real love, it is simply lust.

Homosexuality used to be frowned upon, but is gradually becoming accepted. Leonardo da Vinci was said to be homosexual AND kept a 10 year old boy as his "sex slave". That is now called paedophilia. It wasn't frowned upon in the past, but it is now. In America, in some states, people commit Beastiality (and it's not always a man penetrating an animal; the reverse has happened, and women also commit such acts) AND it is accepted (ie it is not illegal).

These laws/rules are made by society and not the Lord. Man makes his own laws and suits them to himself. It is man who calls himself homo or heterosexual.

IMO, although homosexuality has been around from the beginning of time (including in animals), doesn't make it right. Evil has been around - people committed murders, rapes, and other crimes - since the beginning of time. Still doesn't make it right.

I believe that if we follow the path of the Lord, we will find the True way to live. I believe that lusting after another (male or female) will lead us to the wrong path. I believe we should be "asexual" in our thoughts - ie not to lust after anyone, and that marriage and children are there for procreation - to produce physical bodies in which other souls can enter whilst in the cycle of birth and death.

[ISDhillon]

Wicked warrior ji, :TH:

I thankyou for your participation in this discussion hoever i do disagree with you, the soul has many virtues such as truth, purity, divinity and finally love, the reason why anand karaj is not the same as marriage is for this very reason that love is not to do with lust, homosexuals recognise and intimacy on a spiritual level with one another and it is the love betwen 2 souls that serves as blueprint for loving god thats why the guu says "Jinne prem kiyo tin hee prabh payo" only those who love won acheived the lord, because love shakes you out of your bondage to your dead past and you realise that your copnvictions to date have been wastefull, if conditions are not met for all people then bhagti of god is not possible.

Again peadophilia is not consensual it cannot be used as anrgument because a child can never be in a position mentally and physically to make such a chjoice.

Gurfateh.

[Jitty]

ISDhillon,

You thank one of the posters for being involved in the discussion. Yet this thread seems to contain very little discussion. It seems to my naive brain that this thread is for you to puch your homosexual beliefs in order, maybe, to make yourself feel better about your sexuality.

I think wiser people than me have already commented on the facts about Sikhi and sexuality. So I will add nothing to this.

I will say that we all know that one of the main things that a true Sikh must control is Lust and as long as we all agree on this, the thing you lust after becomes insignificant.

As a true sikh we should not out down anyone for what they believe so I would not and have never judged someone due to there sexuality.

But thinking about this if and when I have children I will teach them that this is wrong. Thats because "I" believe homosexuality is wrong this has nothing to do with wether someone can write a whole page about why they think its fine to be gay and a sikh.

This reply may seem very prejudiced and my apologies for that but I think with some of these scholarly arguments about whether OUR religion thinks something is right or wrong people forget about what they truely believe. By this I mean I could sit here and say I have nothing against Gays and even have friends who are gay. But I have to ask myself would I want my chidren to be gay? If not why not.

[ISDhillon]

Hello Jitty,

I dont think your prejudiced at all although at the end of your post you do say that you would tell your children it is wrong but you dont know why and perhaps that is a relationship between you and your conscience, however I must correct you your ideas about lust have already been dealt with not just by me but also sikh scholars, homosexuals are active co-equal participants in this society who are committed to one another and put a lot into society and have excelled in every sphere of human endeavour even procreation (but ssshhhhh its a best kept secret)your argument about lust is shrivel in the wake of that, you seem to think that they are all rampant sodomites and with time people such as yourself will get a rude awakening when they discover that reality is not in agreement with them.

Anyhow thanks again for sharing with me your personal opinion but in future I would advise participants that they should draw their inferences from gurmat as I have done, my intention was never to write a whole page but it was to go a little further than what the jathedar did.

Kind regards,

ISDhillon

[Jitty]

Hello Jitty,

I dont think your prejudiced at all although at the end of your post you do say that you would tell your children it is wrong but you dont know why and perhaps that is a relationship between you and your conscience, however I must correct you your ideas about lust have already been dealt with not just by me but also sikh scholars, homosexuals are active co-equal participants in this society who are committed to one another and put a lot into society and have excelled in every  sphere of human endeavour even procreation (but ssshhhhh its a best kept secret)your argument about lust is shrivel in the wake of that, you seem to think that they are all rampant sodomites and with time people such as yourself will get a rude awakening when they discover that reality is not in agreement with them.

Anyhow thanks again for sharing with me your personal opinion but in future I would advise participants that they should draw their inferences from gurmat as I have done, my intention was never to write a whole page but it was to go a little further than what the jathedar did.

Kind regards,

ISDhillon

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ISDhillon,

Not sure what the laughing smiley is all about. But I do feel you are a very "gay and proud of it" fellow and therefore will not listen to anything anyone else has to say. Im unsure what you hoped to achieve by your post?

At the end of my orginal post it does not say that I do not know why I would tell my children homosexuality is wrong. As you have advised other people in the sangat maybe you should actually read the post.

I have not once said that homos are not an equal part of society, nor have I mentioned that they have made no contributions to the world. Once again I believe you are just writing what ever makes your agenda and nothing to do with other posts.

Also in your post you say "you seem to think that they are all rampant sodomites and with time people such as yourself will get a rude awakening when they discover that reality is not in agreement with them."

This is not my belief and it does not say anything like this in my original post (i know I wrote it and have re-read it)

Finally "Anyhow thanks again for sharing with me your personal opinion but in future I would advise participants that they should draw their inferences from gurmat as I have done" - I hope you do not think that because someone copies and pastes quotes from gurbani that this then makes those views those of the gurus or even the sangat as a whole.

Once again thanks for taking the time to reply.

[ISDhillon]

"Not sure what the laughing smiley is all about."

They dont have to be about anything I use them quite freely.

"But I do feel you are a very "gay and proud of it" fellow and therefore will not listen to anything anyone else has to say."

No this is a direct example where your personal feelings have hampered your objective judgement, throughout my whole post I have never tried to further any agenda, I have approached this subject from a neutral footing, the fact that you think I am gay is a reflection on yourself I hope see your error.

"Im unsure what you hoped to achieve by your post?"

Understanding

"As you have advised other people in the sangat maybe you should actually read the post."

I said that because you gave no reason and further on I stated that you should draw your inferences from gurbani, a personal opinion is devoid of any qualification and therefore must be rejected as a non-entity.

"Once again I believe you are just writing what ever makes your agenda and nothing to do with other posts."

If that was the case then why are you even responding surely when a dog barks you do not respond to it.

"This is not my belief and it does not say anything like this in my original post (i know I wrote it and have re-read it)"

Your whole idea was based on kaam and that if kaam is the only measure of a homosexual relationship then what other than sodomy is your pretense.

"Once again thanks for taking the time to reply. "

Its my pleasure and I will share in your laughter.

ISDhillon

[Balbir Singh]

Satsriakal to all and ISDhillon Ji!

You seem to be a truthful person.

I have heard God gives Darshan and Mukti to those who become truthful.

I do not know if my prayers also work for gays. They may be enjoying mayic life and preferably wish it again and again.

Balbir Singh

[ISDhillon]

Satsriakal Balbir Singh Ji

I hope you are keeping well I read your posts now and again on the other forums and thankyou for your kind words but let it be known that I am a worm amongst saints. I know I can be really harsh sometimes but I think I let the krodh get the better of me perhaps I need some anger management.

Humbly

ISDhillon

[randip singh]

Guys I'l' be honest with you,

Some of the most spiritually inclined people I have met have been gay. Some of the most spiritually inclined people I have met have been hetrosexual. Some of the last spiritually inclined have come from both quarters.

To mix up the argument of Kaam and associate it with homosexuality is a non-argument. Kaam = Lust = and obsession with sex. You can be gay or straight and be obsessed with sex. You can be gay and straight and not be obsessed with sex.

Do not confuse sex with Kaam. We have had this debate many times. The sexual act in humans is not like animals i.e. some sort drive to mte from a base animal instinct. The sexual act in humans is (or should be) as an expresssion of love. However, this is not the only expression of love. Those who are obsessed with Kaam often confuse Love with sex. Waheguru teaches us to love. Please do not confuse it with Kaam. This is wrong.

If two people love each other regardless of love and are not just OBSESSED with the sexual act, then I see nothing wrong with it.

Thanks