Should We Forgive Dhirmal And Co?

[ISDhillon]

Satsriakal Lion King Ji (this response is an exact replica of the one I have sent another member who think he's right also but this is slightly edited)

I have written many posts to revoke what the people have said about Baba Vadbhag Singh Ji on tapoban but because the moderators are fanantics and they want to allow speech that reflects their own man-made maryada I have not been allowed to have my say but I will tell you . The malaysia story is of no consequence to me I will tell you why here in the uk we have a similar gurdwara from this dera and they too have made people ill so no-one goes to that gurdwara however the dera in india is true and my own mother who was ill for 6 years of her life has got better and that too with gurus kirpa from this dera that you know nothing about she has had a total recovery!! and is more into sikhi than ever before and has never returned to the dera either. And for your information the akj is also a man made organisation which has self-appointed authority unto itself and we will not be dictated to by a revivalist movement stay up all night and debate that!

Secondly sikhism has always been a liberal faith it is a faith where a person has an inimate relationship with their guru no-one other than the guru can give guidance for the soul so you will fail at every couse because their is nothing from my guru which suggests this dera is manmat its just your personl opinion and I dont care for it, now other than what you personally think of as manmat then do tell me what our guru says of Baba Ji and the dera if you can find nothing to validate your claims from sikh sources then I would advise you to stop giving hukum on issues you know NOTHING about.

Finally, I would like to say the tapoban site is not as free as one might think I have read alot of stuff on the site some of which is quite disgusting but when somoeone provides hard evidence on a range of topics that shows they are wrong they will never air it on the website because they fear no-one will be able to give a befitting come back , ask and see if they have the courage to admit they supress debate. it is shocking but its ok because they themselves with time will be the cause of disunity in the panth I dont need to say anything time will tell. I am not an akj hater but what annoys me is how they attack sikhs who have done service for the panth such as naamdharis and then have the audacity to call them manmat when they themselves have been the cause of so much controversy. There are sikhs today who are good peole but this organisation has smeared their reputation because of blatant orthodoxy NOT because they are gursikhs themselves.

Please dont be offended by my words the hypocrisy infuriates me,

ISDhillon

I never wrote this to you Lion King Ji this is just what I was prevented from saying on the forum, noone as yet has been able to respond and say how the dera has nothing to do with sikhism without becoming hypocrites themselves because the evidence they use is the one you have used a letter from a man I do not believe in, sorry mate it wont change my mind its ok I am the true knower of the reality which me and no-one can take that away from me. :TH:

[Gupt daasan daas]

narsingh was an avtaar of vishnu, one of of his avtaars

its in the purrana, one of em, forget which one

and doint kno much bout baba vadhbhaag siingh je but i kno anyone who takes amrit is forgiven for everythin, is reborn

so baba je shud no tbe attacked for bein part of tha family

bhula chuka maf

[samosasingh]

Mr.Dhillon,

I have just watched the video, and have come to the conlcusion that it has nothing to do with Sikhi. There was no mention of even Guru Granth or Guru Panth.

It is fine that he has his own dera, but is this what Satguru Nanak Dev Jee wanted the Khalsa to become?

You mention your mother was sick from being possesed etc, etc. Did you ever go to the Gurdwara and have the Granthee do ardaas and degh for her well being while she went through her time of need? Did you listen to the Hukumnamaa and try to follow it? Did you find a shabad that pierced your heart and recite it for her well being?

I have been through very similar circunstances as you, so don't get me wrong that I have no experience, for me this happened to both my parents.

But we constantly did ardaas and degh and seva and did Sehaj Paats, not from Gyanee's but on our own and my father survived from his death bed.

Did you present yourself infront of Panj Piara and beg for forgiveness for your bad deeds, which is why you were stuck in the problem in the first place and ask for Khandaa Amrit?

Did you do any of this before you went to that Deraa??? Why would you leave the present form of Guru Nanak in Guru Granth Sahib and run there.

They are calling him "Sachaa Patshaah", that is reserved for Satguru Nanak and the Guru's after Him upto only Guru Granth Sahib.

The video is right in saying that you have to go through a similar experience before you reaise that these things exist. BUT if you are a SIKH, he always turns to the Guru for help in all situations.

Guru in Banee says these things do exist, but the the real cure is Japjee Sahib. Did you sit down and recite it over and over and over again till things got better?Gurbanee is the real cure. Or were you looking for an easy way out of your problems, just go dance around have a cold bath and Kaboom we are fixed. You supposed to realize the Lord through your misfortunes not get attached to a "Kaam Dhen" Tree, which will be able to help you up to a certain point after which will have to say "I can't".

A true Sikh/Saadh/Sant/Baba will only attach you to Guru Granth Sahib and nowhere else. I do agree he does have powers to cure, but there is absoltly no one higher than the Lord Satguru Nanak.

[Lion(LK)King]

Massive respect to Samosa Singh's response

[ISDhillon]

Dear Mr Samosa Singh Ji,

My mother has done paath all her life it is this paath which eventually changed her karma and she was lucky to have it in her kismet to go to Babaji dera and get sorted out, tell me how is this not with guru kirpa the guru is a guide and he guided my mother to Baba Vadhbhag Singh Ji so you see you do not have a monopoly on how gurmat is to be interpreted I have been very patient and respectfull but people keep using their own opinion as being right and I am intolerant to that, I said before Guru Arjan Dev Ji sent his wife to Baba Buddha cos she couldnt have a child surely by your definition guru ji could give her everything? why did she not just do paath etc and everything else you have suggested in your post I would seriously suggest you go there and see for yourself cos we dont go there anymore we only go to the normal gurdwara like everyone else but I will forever defend the rights of all people to go to the dera and have sent many people their and they know the true reality of their condition, the guru is a force more than just gurshabad guru gives you good karma and for us the guru showed the cure through Baba Vadhbhag Singh Ji I am very happy for your father and mother best of luck to your whole family. You then venture into "its manmat" territory no Mister Samosa it certainly is not, about 50% people who are at the dera are amritdhari and they all get cured by guru ji kirpa you can have a personal opinion from yourself but dont speak for sikhism and akj people in my humble opinion dont know squat about what they are talking about in this sense I go to the forum quite frequently but they never let me have my say cos theyre scared of the evidence i have which when compared to what their baba wrote prooves their baba wrong I have also sent evidence to the sgpc but they dont respond to me cos of ego but thats ok cos i can shut my mouth tomorrow and time will still show what the truth is, I do not value their opinion unless it comes from sikhism. They use their baba to trump another baba and thats the greatest hypocrisy!

Let me know if you would like to know more but please draw your inferences from sikhism of 1699 and not a new version, thanks and sorry for any offence

ISDhillon

[Lion(LK)King]

ISdhillon jeeyo, no mattter how much reference is provided - if we provide reference from Gurbani that what is being done there is manmat - will you accept that?

You've already made up your opinion, and unless your ready to change your jeevan after Gurbani, ther's no point in doing so.

THe reason I have massive respect for Samosa SIngh's response is that, they had FULL FAITH, they truely believed in

ਦੁਖੁ ਦਾਰੂ ਸੁਖੁ ਰੋਗੁ ਭਇਆ ਜਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਤਾਮਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥

ਤੂੰ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਰਣਾ ਮੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਜਾ ਹਉ ਕਰੀ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥

Pain is the medicine and pleasure the malady, and where there is pleasure, there is no desire for God.

Thou art the Doer, I can do nothing. Even if I try to do something, it comes to nothing.

He did not see Gurbani just as a bunch of words, there but who cares?

They truely believed that it is only through Mahraj, Sache Paatsha, His Gurbani, the GURU, the Saajnra - only through HIM - only through BELEIF, FAITH, PYAAR for their GURU will they get somewhere. THey didn't loose faith in Gurbani. Only such a person turns his face towards someone else who looses faith i Gurbani. one who has 199% faith in Gurbani doesn't turn to someone else- because they don't NEED to turn t someone else. Those who have TRUE FAITH-

pauVI ]

hir ieko dwqw syvIAY hir ieku iDAweIAY ]

hir ieko dwqw mMgIAY mn icMidAw pweIAY ]

jy dUjy pwshu mMgIAY qw lwj mrweIAY ]

ijin syivAw iqin Plu pwieAw iqsu jn kI sB BuK gvweIAY ]

nwnku iqn ivthu vwirAw ijn Anidnu ihrdY hir nwmu iDAweIAY ]10]

Pauree:

Serve the One Lord, the Great Giver; meditate on the One Lord.

Beg from the One Lord, the Great Giver, and you shall obtain your heart's desires.

But if you beg from another, then you shall be shamed and destroyed.

One who serves the Lord obtains the fruits of his rewards; all of his hunger is satisfied.

Nanak is a sacrifice to those, who night and day, meditate within their hearts on the Name of the Lord. ||10||

Guru Sahib, Guru Granth Sahib jeeyo, Gurbani, has EVERYTHING - Gurbani IS EVERYTHING. If we want to get someone we need to approuch Guru Ji with Faith Pyaar. By turning to someone else simply shows that our faith lacks.

Bhaji/bhenji, there is no use in arguing, we disagree on this issue, and will not leave the "palla" of Shabad Guru, and pray that we do not loose faith/waver in Shabad Guru

Bhaji/bhenji, unless you agree to change your opinion if we can provide you with Shabads that go against what you believe in, there is no reason to argue, because you have simply stated youropinion, but are bent on not changing it, not matter how much Maryada, Rehit, Gurmukhs, Gurbani is saying.

Let's remember, if Vadhbhag SIngh got - where did he get them from? Ultimately Guru Granth Sahib JI, and through Khandey Battey di Pahul - so why should everyone go to him to get cured - why shouldn't people visist his dera to get cured/powers, if they can get powers from GURU SAHIb - the SOURCES OF ALL POWER. If he got powers from Gurbani, and Maharaj - then surely we should turn ourself to Maharaj too instead of someone else, who is ultimately a Sikh as well..

Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jeeyo

Bhull Chukk Maaf

[ISDhillon]

Well Lion King Ji,

I found that post very patronising why do you presume that those who go to the dera are going away from sikhis this is not sikhism but orthodox sikhism, you keep talking about putting your faith in gurshabad how have people who go to the dera not put faith in gurshabad you have not answered any of the things i wrote in my previous post, it is very shallow to think that you have the right or true interpretation of sikhism cos you dont, a sikh is free to learn for him/herself and if they go to the dera they will learn whether it is right or wrong, thats why we can never fully sing the praises of god because we dont know everything. The shabad you have used is used quite frequntly by orthodox sikhs and I translate in my own way cos i dont believe their is one interpretation, i believe that the verse refers to the power of naam or kamai of naam eg, sarab rog ka aukad naam, which is what i see at the dera so if you think about it the verse does not support your claims. The difference in this discussion is that i am not telling people to go to dera but i am stopping others to give the dera a bad name by all means abstain until you learn more but dont preach hat cos you will end up suffering no matter how much naam simran you do cos with one mouth you repeat the name of god and with the other mouth you <admin-profanity filter activated> about babaji and how much does sukhmani sahib tell us about santa ki nindak i could go on forever, I am not criticising Mr Samosas post I am saying i am glad that guru helped him in that way but for us a different way worked and that was helpfull too.

Anyways thats it for the moment,

:TH:

And its bhaaji not bhenji

ISDhillon

[Guru Da Piyara]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ke Fathe,

I have been reading the messages posted about Baba Vadbagh Singh Ji! I don't think anyone has any knowledge or history about who he was, Where he came from. And most of all who appointed him this duty of clensing and helping others who are in pain and spiritually lost.

Ok

Baba Vadbagh Singh ji is Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Nephew, So those of you who are crtitising and bad mouthing him Stop right now. Guru Gobind Singh Ji had a mission from God to create the Khalsa, But amonst all this Guru Ji had little time to sort the peoples individual problems. So one day his nephew Baba Vadbhag Singh Ji was playing as a child and Guru Ji thought and decided that I will give Vadbhag Singh the duty to look after this area of Bhoot and Prett! Whilst i can concentrate on the true Mission of God creating the Khalsa. Guru Ji then blessed Vadbhag Singh and told him that guru ji will always have his blessing behind him in water ever circustances arise i will always be there with you. So Baba Vadbhag Singh Ji should be respected and treated with great honer! Now going back to the Dera, This is still a valid place but

it hasn't been maintaned at it should be and if the Dera is protraying an image that put's people off then thats not Baba Ji's fault he is no longer in a physical form that he can sort it out! He's in a spiritual form now and to this day he still comes through various blessed individuals who he helps but let me tell you be careful because amongst the true there are also the money making scams as well.

I thought i would keep it short! But those of you who don't understand Please for your own good don't critise Baba Ji he's for real and if you critise him then you are critising Guru Ji as well!

Take Care

Guru Da Piyara

[Jkaur]

Baba Vadbagh Singh ji is Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Nephew, So those of you who are crtitising and bad mouthing him Stop right now. => now how in the name of GOD u came to know this bit of info??

Who is this baba vadbagh singh?? i have heard abt one particular babaji a few months ago who uses a sprit by the name "naarsingha" to help to remove spirits .. and from the story of naarsingha that was given in the post sumwhere above i heard nearly the same story.. not sure if its exactly the same as i was not reali interested in listening to it.. this particular babaji was in malaysia few months ago..however im not too sure of his name ...

but yeah however does this particular babaji uses gurbani to help to cast spirits or does he uses sum "alternate" methods??

[Guru Da Piyara]

Well

Just say i have the knowledge from an individual who i know very closely mentioning no name! This individual who i really respect has helped many people including our family very much. I am a Amrit Dhari who believes in Guru Granth Sahib ji from the Heart not just by mouth. Let say God some how made us come across this individual 10years ago who has never put me on any other path but the Guru's path and has never taken or asked for anything in return. This individual has simply said Naam Simran Karo.

This individual has Baba Vadbhag Singh Ji's Havaa. Basically when he wants to help some one he sit's in a chonkee which is "meditation" Then Baba Vadbhag Singh Ji takes over the body and tell's you what ever you need to know and help you and give you some sense of direction. What ever is done from start to finish is all through Guru Granth Sahib Ji nothing is done out of Guru Ji. Now Baba Naar Singh Ji helps Baba Vadbhag Singh ji when required! Baba Naar Singh used to be a Dhe which is a Bad evil looking spirit but after Baba Vadbhag Singh Ji Blessed him and taut him a lesson then Baba Naar Singh became a Sewa Daar of Baba Vadbhag Singh Ji. Many stories have been made up, But this is the truth. Everything that i have been told has always been true to this day by this individual who i know so that's how i know. I hope this answers your question. But with the experience i have learnt a lot trust me. There are people out their that need to educate them selves before opening their mouths. In the Ardas we do the part near the end where we say chonkea chanday bugay jugho jugh ataal dharam ka Jekar bholo ji waheguru. this mean that the good and evil was made at the same time by God. Guru will have to return to this earth again because of the people of this earth are not going in the right path. I tell you something the sikhs of todays society far from Guru Ji,

i tell you something the first people that will get slapped hard will be sikhs and you know what they deserve it because we are not worthy to be linked with guru ji. The really sikhs will be born at the time of Raj Kare Ga Khalsa. In Ardas again where it says Quar Sab milan Ge jo Bhachay charan jo Hoai. The Almight will return at the point where his true ones are in need not the likes of us as in todays society. We have a long way to go my friend! I hope i didn't offend you in anyway.

Greeting My Brother

Guru Da Piyara