Hazoor Sahib

[Gupt daasan daas]

thas nice argument

but than u gotta read bhagatj ravidaas jes shabads to udnerstand wat tru arthee is, not only read wat is in kirtan sohilla

NAAM thero arthee

that is the TRUE arthee

bhula chuka maf

[crayzy]

I ve read that too

and I totally agree...Im not saying the tray of candles is the true aarti - all im saying is that its a symbol of which we have been given the meaning.

Basically I dont feel its *wrong* to do it or not do it, but as a ceremony to be performed for a King, I do believe the traditional jugti needs to be used

...

[N30S1NGH]

ya crazz i did

i jus dont agree wit veer je this time:)

theres a reason to Y guru je wrote tha arthee

while hinduus are doing that arthee with symobls, guru je told us about the beuatiful cosmic arthee going on

the arthee in a dhaal done by us does not compare

and further bhagath ravidaas je explains wat the TRUE arthee, wat our true devotion should be, which is NAAM

gurbanee is clear

now im not sayin its PAAP to do arthee tha way

but its useless

bhagath ravidaas je has showed us the true way of doin arthee

NAAM thero arthee majan murarai

bhula chuka maf

150478[/snapback]

i just don't get if you find acceptable to do chaur di seva on maharaj then what's wrong with arti-arta around maharaj?

according to sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale steek of japji sahib- guru is nothing less than "Sarguna paratma". why feel uncomfortable do arti-arta of guru who is in sargun form of Pure Nirankar(nirgun)?

Lets go back at the physical guru- people threw flowers at physical guru, adorn them at highest of high places- thrones, did chaur of them, did arti of them, now what's a difference? nothing, guru ji is in shabad written form...guru ji changed its form but at the end of day it's still the same guru right? would u say a sikh having that kinda sharda committing manmat? i really don't think so.

if you are against arti-arta ceremony around maharaj then why not against chaura sahib as well? why this double standards?

as far as sohila arti and bhai gurdas ji varan concern please read tsingh post above.

Please i don't think you can use bhagat ravi das as an argument without looking at its uthanka(historical context) in which he talks about that shabad.

That's where we are lacking, uthanka(historical context) of shabad, if we have learnt uthanka of shabad then we wouldnt be bound to misinterpertation of shabad or even think that gurbani is contradictory somehow.

[Gupt daasan daas]

well veer je because this all has to do with gurbanee

GURBANEE is the guru

i agree

guru granth shaib is sargun saroop of vaheguuru

i nevere said they arnyt

buttt

that just doesnt mean worship the outside and never understand whats on the inisde

thas the most important parrt, the gurbanee

and GURBANEE is CLEAR on what the TRUE arthee is

NAAM THERO ARTHEE

naam is the TRUE arthee

and the reaosn fro chaour sahib is respect as the muslim emperors, ect shainshahs used to have chaour sahib done on them too

so sikhs did it for there guru as well

its to show they are shahai shanshah

arthee on the otherhand is done as a sign of devotion or worship

nbut guru je has showed us the true way to show our devotion, and pyaar

NAAM

and chaour sahib and arthee are totally differen tthings

arthee was never done for the emeporor or king, not to tha im aware

and no where in gurbanee have i read what the true chaur is , or chaour is pointles

sbut guru je has directly reffered to arthee in this

and what the true arthee is, and what we shud be doin

bhula chuka maf

[N30S1NGH]

Agreed naam is highest of all,

that just doesnt mean worship the outside and never understand whats on the inisde

how about twist on to this?

arti-arta ceremony is outer reflection of one's sharda, pyaar inside just like how chaur seva is outer reflection of one's sharda and pyaar towards sri guru maharaj ji.

also before we go any further, you keep bring up chaur seva and arti-arta is two different things, represent something else. that's wrong please re-read tirath singh nirmala post very very carefully. he already covered this part.

[Gupt daasan daas]

veer je i think i explained y we do chaour...

chaour is just a sign of respect, ad they are a KING

arthee is a hindu ritual

chaour is universal thing

the myuslim emeperors wud do it, the hindus maharajas wud do t, and the sikh gururs did it

but only the hindus did arthee

no muslim court( who werre the rulers of the time) did arthee of ther eking

but they all did chouar

this is a universal sign of respect

arthee is for hindus, thas a devotional ritual to them

bhula chuka maf

[crayzy]

that just doesnt mean worship the outside and never understand whats on the inisde

But as we worship the outside we simultaneoulsy sing the shabad to explain the 'inside'

Namstang I dont see tsinghs post anywhere on this thread....?

[Gupt daasan daas]

ya i think t singh is the long post in namastang veer js post, the long quote

and its sort of funny to bein doin arthee and singi at the same time the true arthee is naam

bhula chuka maf

[N30S1NGH]

veer je i think i explained y we do chaour...

chaour is just a sign of respect, ad they are a KING

arthee is a hindu ritual

chaour is universal thing

the myuslim emeperors wud do it, the hindus maharajas wud do t, and the sikh gururs did it

but only the hindus did arthee

no muslim court( who werre the rulers of the time) did arthee of ther eking

but they all did chouar

this is a universal sign of respect

arthee is for hindus, thas a devotional ritual to them

bhula chuka maf

150486[/snapback]

ok if you want to play by arthi being hindu ritual game cards, then

what about lighting jot in taksali gurdwara's and other takths? and cocunut? note i m not against them. i m just asking you does that not qualify as hindu ritual for you as well?

note stuff like this has nothing to do with hindu rituals but more to do cosmic worship of sarguna avtar.

[Gupt daasan daas]

as for ligthing joth

ive never belived this has anything to do with worship

joth has many good purposes

bugs do not ocme near

light( this was ESPECIALLY importnt for punjaab bak in dayz which had no electricity and defintley zlways needed a bak up light sourece contunioous for akhand paath to go)

and the gheeo can give a nice smell

it also has a very nice effect on the mind , a calming and soothing one, sort of sets the atmoshphere

but thas my 2 cents about joth

but i seriously doubt it has ANYTHING to do with worship

and the cocunut is a tradition coming from out gururs times

i think thas has somethin to do wit the fact that our gurus gave cocuntus to the susccesor guru je, but dont quote me, i aint sure o the reason

but intrestin about taksal, i found this while lookin for the cocunt reason, to see if there was anythin

once the Raagmala and complete Japji Sahib have been recited at the Bhog

(completion) of Sri Akhand Paath, a Jakara is not to be sounded and nor is the Fateh to be said. The Ardas is to begin immediately. Fateh is only to be announced after the Hukamnama has been ‘sounded’. Shabad Kirtan or discourses on Gurmat are to be conducted. If Shabads of Arti are recited then candles/lamps are not to be lit and waved around.

Along side the Sri Akhand Paath, Sri Japji Sahib must be continuously recited. Over the container of water, a coconut wrapped in white or saffron (not red) cloth is to be placed. Red string is not to be tied around the coconut or container. In order to create a pleasant atmosphere, incense sticks (air-fresheners, non-alcoholic fragrances etc) should be used. At night time, there should be additional lighting provisions in case the light bulbs or electricity fails. Ghee lamps can be used, but those which use paraffin, white spirit or gas, should not be used in the same room as the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. None of the Paathis are to be non-Amritdharee or those that have committed any of the cardinal sins (without having re-taken Amrit).

so guess u shud count taksal out for arthee

joth is explained, and i think thas the reason for cocunt, tradition, but ill check the reason

bhula chuka maf