Vaat Am I Supposed To Say To This?

[Davinder]

VJKK VJKF

We cut the white part of the nails because that is dead keratin (protien)...hair is living as is the pink bit of our nails.

Khalsa Fateh

[WGJKKWGJKF]

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh!

Just yesterday, i was talking to this guy at work and he was fasinated at me being a "practising Sikh" as he called it. So he was asking me why i dont cut my hair and i gave him every logicaly reason. As we continued to talk he was like " Soo what happens when you cut your hair?" and soo i was like "Well since i am a baptised Sikh cutting my hair there is no option, i just will not under any circumstances cut my hair" and he was like well say that someone who was baptised did cut there hair, what would happen andi was like "well then you could say they would go to hell for breaking a promise to God." He was shocked at this answer and replied with " soo we should all go to hell for cutting our hair?"

Maybe saying that they would go to " hell" was not the smartest answer that i should have replied with but anyhow... my question is what is the SIkhi view on ppl who do cut their hair????

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji kif ateh!

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Good question.

A large part of the world's population does participate in rituals such as shaving of hair, circumcision, body piercing, etc. In this sense, Sikhs are in the minority. However, for a Sikh, acceptance of Nature's beautiful body is an important component of the Sikh value system. Acceptance of one's God-given physique without "improving" it by razors and scissors is a first step in accepting other laws, the foremost of which is becoming a universal being. Sikhs view others who engage in such rituals as people who carry unnecessary burdens in their lives; not as sinners or bad people.

taken from: http://www.akalsangat.com/qa1.html

I hope that answered your question.

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

[Lion(LK)King]

Animals beg and cry before being killed. They try to run away. When was the last time your carrot begged for mercy and ran away from you?

Tha's a pretty lame excuse. Why do we see everything in human terms.

Fiar enough plants don't beg and cry - but do you know for usre thta they don't have some other way of expressing animals cannot recognize?

Just as we cannot comrehend what or if plants feel, we cannot judge a plant because it can't run - Rabh made plants without legs. Are plants not living?

His argument is 100% legitimate, because alway many of us will see it as a lame argument, it does make sense if we really think about it, as we cannot comprehend plants in human terms, just as wel cannot comprehend Kartar in, human terms, liek race, caste, creed eye color, etc - Just as it's impossible to comprehend SaajanRa in HUman terms, we cannot use human terms like, nervous systems, or nerve impulses in animas, as they have entirely different physiological characteristics

One requires you to forget mercy while the other doesn't have any lack of mercy. That's why they call people "butchers". It takes a butcher to eat and create meat. A butcher can never have the mercy of Vahiguru.

In a lot of modern countries the animal are killed in a way that it doesn't have time to send nerve impulses to the brain to secrete adrenaline, and even if it is sent, adrenaline needs to be secreted. Although this goes extremely quickly, due to the fact that in most countries they have some way of immedietly making the animal unconscious, in other words it's not "awake" whilst it's being slaughtered, which takes a decimal of a second.

Am I justfying eating meat?

No way.

Am I saying we should eat meat?

Uh-uh.

I just think the plant not having legs, is lame.

How would you classify a Fungei ("khomba") 'mushrooms'

- They don't photosynthesize, i.e they are heterotrophs

- They "eat" (not with their 'mouths' haha) food, which is dead..

- They respirate, i.e don't give us oxygen, but take it from plants.

- They have cellwalls (I believe) - similar to plants'

- They do not have legs

3 arguments that makes it close to meat, and 2 that make it closer to plant.

Which one is it - can we eat mushrooms?

This is a genuine question, as I do not know, I've always been confused about it - What makes us be allowed to eat mushrooms, just that they don't have legs to run away with?

End of the day- Guru Hargobind Shaib ji Hukamnama pretty much crushes all other arguments, but the above questions remain un-answered. I still stand firm that plant argument is lame.

bhull chukk maaf

[Singh132]

Somtimes people think too much.

The reason for not eating kuthaa (butchered meat) is mercy. Mercy is the source of Dharam. A merciful person will not kill another animal for taste. There are other arguments as well of course.

We don't have any objection to eating yogurt (which contains countless organisms and is in fact formed by those organisms), we don't have any objection to eating mushrooms and we don't have any problem inhaling countless organisms every day.

You mentioned some "humane" methods of killing. That ignores the whole process of bringing the animal to the place of butchering. Do you really think that the trauma suffered is any less just because the actual death may (or may not) be relatively painless? Just process of being brought into a factory that smells of blood and death and being lead to a machine covered in blood (no, they don't clean it after every kill) lacks mercy. Death in a meat factory is not clean and sanitary.

It boils down to mercy. If you want some kind of scientific formula about what is eadible and what isn't based on cell structure and nervous system information, I'm afraid I can't provide it. It's based on common sense.

[Lion(LK)King]

Somtimes people think too much.

As far as I'm aware, they're on the right track then.

Guru Sahib gave us an "ukal" to think with, and not blindly accept anything.

Just like Guru Nanak Dev ji questioned every single thing in society, I believe we too have to question everything in order to be able to follow a path, without blind faith, and dogma.

So who do we ask when we don't understand - who should we question ?-

gur ibnu Goru AMDwru gurU ibnu smJ n AwvY ]

gur bin ghor a(n)dhhaar guroo bin samajh n aavai ||

Without the Guru, there is utter darkness; without the Guru, understanding does not come.

The reason for not eating kuthaa (butchered meat) is mercy.  Mercy is the source of Dharam.  A merciful person will not kill another animal for taste.  There are other arguments as well of course.

Who's definition of Kuttha are you using?

I'm not refuting that meat isn't allowed, all I'm saying is tha the plant argument is extremly lame, than we have no answer to it.

We don't have any objection to eating yogurt (which contains countless organisms and is in fact formed by those organisms), we don't have any objection to eating mushrooms and we don't have any problem inhaling countless organisms every day. 

What exactly makes it okay to eat mushrooms? That thy don't have legs, and can't run when being chopped?

You mentioned some "humane" methods of killing.  That ignores the whole process of bringing the animal to the place of butchering.  Do you really think that the trauma suffered is any less just because the actual death may (or may not) be relatively painless?  Just process of being brought into a factory that smells of blood and death and being lead to a machine covered in blood (no, they don't clean it after every kill) lacks mercy.  Death in a meat factory is not clean and sanitary.

1- In a lot of countries it is quite the opposite to what you have written.

as for smell of blood and death, most scientists (and I believe that Gurbani mentions this as well) is that an animal does not understand in conepts. Just like we feel pain, or fear etc, and can talk about it, because we've got WORDS for it, we've got a concept of pain and fear - animals don't - That's exactly what distinguishes us from animals. They might learn from trail and error, but they still do not understand in concepts. they do not know what death is. They may see a revolver, and FEEL pain - but it's unconscious - they do not KNOW they are feeling pain... You could surround an animal in a room with boody walls- it will still not understand that it's about to be killed..mercilessly... or whatever... they do not understand, or have that understanding - so bringing in an animal to a factory wil not cause any harm (I believe) to the animal. Although I do acknowledge that in countries like India, and some other countries animals are treated very poorly, being locked into small spaces (like chickens) - but would we have a different opinion, if they weren't treated like that?

It boils down to mercy.  If you want some kind of scientific formula about what is eadible and what isn't based on cell structure and nervous system information, I'm afraid I can't provide it.  It's based on common sense.

151226[/snapback]

It's not about common sense really, it's just that we ignore the fact that plants too, live, plants too have a jyot...

mÚ 1 ]

mwsu mwsu kir mUrKu JgVy igAwnu iDAwnu nhI jwxY ]

kauxu mwsu kauxu swgu khwvY iksu mih pwp smwxy ]

First Mehl:

The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.

What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?

If it was comon sense really, Guru Sahib would have made it clear, that don't eat this, eat that...

I do acknowledge the Hukamnama of Guru Hargobind Sahib jeeyo, that prohibits Sikhs from eating meat. Whether it's a Kurehit in Khalsa terms, can still be discussed ..however seeing as meat is a prohibited topic, and Gurbani clearly tells us to discuss other things, that would not be very wise :lol:

Bhull chukk maaf

[Singh132]

"You could surround an animal in a room with boody walls- it will still not understand that it's about to be killed..mercilessly... or whatever... they do not understand, or have that understanding - so bringing in an animal to a factory wil not cause any harm (I believe) to the animal"

What are you talking about??? This doesn't even make any logical sense. On a practical level, an animal in a room covered in blood can figure out what's coming next. Go check out a PETA site to see how animals react when being brought into a meat factory. Or even ask anyone who kills animals or has been a butcher: animals know death is coming by looking at their surroundings.

What do you base your statements on? What would possibly make you think that animals can't figure out that a place covered in blood is not somewhere they want to be?

Please don't take this as an attack, but a general comment; sometimes I get the feeling you debate for the sake of debating as opposed to getting to some kind of truth or understanding. I could very well be wrong, but looking at many of your posts, I do get that feeling. That's what I meant by "thinking too much". Sometimes we lose the forest for the trees.

[Guest Guest]

I honestly fail to see how anyone above the age of 10 would be unable to distinguish the massive difference between animals and plants. This is pathetic.

[Lion(LK)King]

Singh132 jeyoo, right now I do not have any evidence for what I wrote in my previous post, but will be posting that eventually, again I could be mistaken - I'm not saying what I say is written on stone...

As for debating for debating, not really, because I'm confused on some issues, and I usually tend to question things that seem common sense to others, just because of that...

But I still think the plant argument is lame... that because they don't have legs they can be eaten haha..

bhull chukk maaf :lol:

[Khalsa4ever]

Waheguroo jee ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo jee kee Fateh!

The thing about plants vs. animals is simple: plants do not have a nervous system, they have no specialized mechanism to feel pain, they are designed to regenerate (like fruit). In fact, most fruits are produced for that sole purpose, with seeds internally to be eaten by animals to allow reproduction of the plant.

An animal, like a human, has a specialized nervous system that can feel pain via nerve impulses. That is why it is wrong to kill animals for the sake of food, because you are inflicting pain on the animal. This is why khatta is MORE wrong than a "quick" death, because of the unnessesary pain inflicted on the animal.

But no death of an animal is painless, and so all animals should be avoided as food. (and if you don't believe me now, watch some of those PETA videos and tell me that the cries are painless).

Waheguroo jee ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo jee kee Fateh!

[Lion(LK)King]

Veer jeyo, firstly it's not nerve impulses that make animals feel pain, as you know but the adrenal hormones that are secreted into the blood. whilst it takes times for the adrenaline i.e the fear to arise in the animal, it cannot be argued that those animals slaughtered in a way where they are first made unconscious - i.e don't have a clue what is about to happen, do nto suffer.

As for the PETA videos, we should be aware thta most of these are taken from the most extreme situations (I think), and tha in most modern countries slaughter doesn't occur like that (atleast where I live)...

As for plants nto having a nervous system is just another way of comparing human/animal characteristics to plants... although the plant dones't have any nervous system per say, it must have some kind of system equivilent (which I am unaware of), which i will try to research more about.

bhull chukk maaf..