Arriving In Australia - 18th April 2006

[N30S1NGH]

There is a huge debate on dharna being kachi bani as people put it:

>> http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=12195&st=0 <<<

That thread is still open !.

If anyone wishes to discuss more on this topic or add more to this long going on debate, they can post there.

I don't want to go off-topic on this thread.

[SSM]

LOL all I want to say is it's funny that people have their own definitions of what kachi bani is. Then they confidently define it. Back to Baba Ranjit Singh Ji- great !

[Nirvair S Khalsa]

Will they be coming to UK by any chance? this yeaR?

Khalsa Jee, a 2006 visit to the United Kingdom by Sant Ranjit Singh Jee Khalsa Dhadrianwale is being planned. Watch the 'FUN l GLOBAL EVENTS l NEWS ARTICLES' section of 'SikhSangat.com' for a new topic on this tour in the near future.

Vaheguroo Jee Kaa Khalsa, Vaheguroo Jee Kee Phateh!!!

[GuruManeyoGranth]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

I just read the Hukumnama by Akaal Takhath Sahib posted by LionKing Sahib. Thanks for providing such a reference, rather than people normally saying Dhaarnas are Anti-Panthic.

However, I feel that this Hukumnama does not necessarily apply to Dhaarnas. Paragraph 2, which I believe is the most relevant point, if translated says:

"Doing Keertan according to Gur-Maryada, Kachi Bani and Filmee Tunes will not be sung. Full concentration shall be afforded to the proper pronunciation of Gurbani."

Without getting to much into a interpretative debate, the whole basis on which those that are ambivalent or pro parchaar by Dhaarnas is that they say Dhaarna is not Bani, thus how can it even be Kachi Bani? If it is not Kachi Bani, then how can a Hukumnama on Kachi Bani apply to it? The answer depends solely on the definition of Kachi Bani, which is so contested.

Further, this Hukumnama is very general. If you read the context in which it was issued, it was over a general discussion by some Ragis that came to Akal Takhat. According to this Hukumnama, even doing non-Raag Keertan is contrary to this Hukumnama, since Gur-Maryada in Keertan, it can be argued, is to do Keertan only in Raags. On this interpretation, most Keertanis would be Tankhaiyas.

I could go on to create a case that this Hukumnama does not apply to Dhaarnas, but this is just futile.

There have been many Hukumnamas which are a lot more specific to outlaw certain actions, behaviour or persons. If Parchaar by Dhaarnas is to be banned, I think such a specific Hukumnama would be required.

Ranjit Singh has even said himself on many occasions, if you want me to stop singing Dhaarnas, present a petition to Akaal Takhat on the specific matter of Dhaarnas, and I shall follow whatever is decided.

In relation to the point made by Sher_Panjabi, Ranjit Singh does encourage Bibiyaan to wear Dastaars/Keskis, but it is not compulsory since it is not compulsory in Akal Takhat Maryada. Similarly, he asks people to do Sampooran Rehiraas (i.e., as Damdami Taksaal, Nanaksar, Nihangs, Rara Sahib, etc. do), but this is not compulsory as Akal Takhat Maryada does not make it compulsory.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Waheguroo

[GuruManeyoGranth]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Just found out that 80 people became Guroo-Wale in Sydney last night in the final Amrit Sanchaar.

Waheguroo

[Lion(LK)King]

Gurumaneyo Granth, Bhaji/bhenji, I'm happy to hear that someone atleast READ the hukamnama with an open mind (I Hope), since others on this forum can't provide reference, and then demand reference from others but never bother to show up after that :lol:

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

I just read the Hukumnama by Akaal Takhath Sahib posted by LionKing Sahib. Thanks for providing such a reference, rather than people normally saying Dhaarnas are Anti-Panthic.

However, I feel that this Hukumnama does not necessarily apply to Dhaarnas. Paragraph 2, which I believe is the most relevant point, if translated says:

"Doing Keertan according to Gur-Maryada, Kachi Bani and Filmee Tunes will not be sung. Full concentration shall be afforded to the proper pronunciation of Gurbani."

Without getting to much into a interpretative debate, the whole basis on which those that are ambivalent or pro parchaar by Dhaarnas is that they say Dhaarna is not Bani, thus how can it even be Kachi Bani? If it is not Kachi Bani, then how can a Hukumnama on Kachi Bani apply to it? The answer depends solely on the definition of Kachi Bani, which is so contested.

Veer jeeyo, although those who do Dharna also say that there is no such things as Kachi Bani. no bani can be kachi, but according to Mahan Kosh, Bani means 'composition'(rachna) hence GURBANI - composition of the Guru.

What is Guru Amardas Ji on about in Anand Sahib if there's no kachi bani....

Further, this Hukumnama is very general. If you read the context in which it was issued, it was over a general discussion by some Ragis that came to Akal Takhat. According to this Hukumnama, even doing non-Raag Keertan is contrary to this Hukumnama, since Gur-Maryada in Keertan, it can be argued, is to do Keertan only in Raags. On this interpretation, most Keertanis would be Tankhaiyas.

1- This shabad speaks about filmy tuna. Nowhere does it mention Raag.

2- Although I do acknowledge that ideally, Kirtan should be done in Raag only, no-one would go to the extent of saying anyoen doing Kirtna outside Raag si a tankhaiya, butanyoen purposly doing it infilmy tuna IS. PURPOSLY

I could go on to create a case that this Hukumnama does not apply to Dhaarnas, but this is just futile.

There have been many Hukumnamas which are a lot more specific to outlaw certain actions, behaviour or persons. If Parchaar by Dhaarnas is to be banned, I think such a specific Hukumnama would be required.

Ranjit Singh has even said himself on many occasions, if you want me to stop singing Dhaarnas, present a petition to Akaal Takhat on the specific matter of Dhaarnas, and I shall follow whatever is decided.

which Ranjit Singh are we speaking about now Jathedar or dharna valey ?

I disagree with you. They have banned Kachi Bani, that is enough. They issue a hukamnama about dharna, someone will come up with something new tomorrow. Rehit Maryada is clear about what Bani should/could be read in Guru Ji's hazoori. Outside hazoori I don't mind if people want to rap dharmic geet, as that too can be nice for some people, but in Hazoori, Sikh Rehit Maryada is clear on what is Bani, naturally anything not falling in those catagories would be kachi bani

In relation to the point made by Sher_Panjabi, Ranjit Singh does encourage Bibiyaan to wear Dastaars/Keskis, but it is not compulsory since it is not compulsory in Akal Takhat Maryada. Similarly, he asks people to do Sampooran Rehiraas (i.e., as Damdami Taksaal, Nanaksar, Nihangs, Rara Sahib, etc. do), but this is not compulsory as Akal Takhat Maryada does not make it compulsory.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Waheguroo

Massive respect to him for doing that :wub:

Let's hope Ranjit SIngh decides to follow the rest of the things that Akal Thakhat say, for example regarding which 'Bani' (composition) is to be read in Guru Ji's Darbar, and the rest is natrually not to be read :wub:

Massive respect for his stand on Dastar/keski and Rehraas (making it optional )

[Nirvair S Khalsa]

At the Baisakhi Nagar Kirtan in Sydney, Australia..........

Vaheguroo Jee Kaa Khalsa, Vaheguroo Jee Kee Phateh!!!