Southall Ramgharia Gurdwara

[Guest PRITAM SINGH KHALSA]

wAheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji kee fateh

The issue being raised

This table and chair issue is NOT an idiotic one, as the last reply stated. It is a good argument. If we as sikhs do not bring issues up how can we tackle them? The ramgharia gurdwara ONLY has chairs and tables in the langhar hall. It dont even provide a place for people to sit and eat. This is silly.....

i think disabled people and people unable to sit and eat should a table or 2. Buttt the ramgharia gurdwara dont have an area where people can sit and eat at all!! Clearly they defied the hukhamnamas issued by the akaal takht many times.

Akaal takht/eternal throne and the false path

My fellow sikhs, may i remind u that the AKal Takht is the Eternal Throne. The supreme seat of sikh religious authority. Akaal meaing timeless lets not forget. takht meaning throne in persian. SIkhs are to except the akaal takht as our guide and authority. The ramgharia gurdwara in southall defied the akaal takht hukamnaamas....this is a serious thing! a gurdwara is not meant to put people on the rong path! by defying the akaal takht its leading people astray.

Mythological figures and shoes

Why do they have a picure of some so called "hindu god" in there? what is this! ive personally seen it. ramgharia gurdwara in southall is leading people astray.

In the langhar hall we must remove our shoes. We have to maintain some level of respect. And lets not compare gurdwara to our homes please. in our homes we dont have a langhar for thousands of people.

Lionchild and his continuous attack on youths

ANd as for the comment about "youths sitting on tables not lookin good" - its not the youths only, its the whole sangat. Its easy to condemn some kids that sit on tables and chairs.....but people need to shuttup and set an example. who do the youth follow? they follow grownups. the gyanis at ramgharia gurdwara have alot of respect of people...young and old. If they could just lead them on the correct path.....people would follow them....And So Wud I.

Other Corrupt SO called Gurdwaras in Southall

I want to bring to light some other corruption strongholds in southall.

Ravidas Gurdwara in Old southall - In there they have a picture of a man they call "guru". and they also matha tek to a man they call "maharaj" ji in there. what is this nonsense?

Clifton road gurdwara - Also situated in old southall. In there they matha tek to a chair/throne which a so called baba sits on when he comes down from india. what is this nonsense? Jaswant singh is a baba that they openly matha tekh to... he used to do tours of roads in southall back in the day aswell in which people used 2 flock to him an matha teck to him with money.

Nanaksar gurdwara - Also situated in southall. In here they have things like pasta and chips in their langhar. ANd on certain days when "a baba comes down frmo kenya" they dont allow people to eat langhar. they stop people frmo eating langhar and tell them off if they try. They claim the langhar is for the baba only...the baba has shakthi they say lol. I dont want to go into rude explicit specifics about why they say he has shakthi and in what ways he uses his so called shakthi with women.

what is this nonsense? langhar is FOR ALL WHO COME TO THE GURDWARA. GURDWARA NEVER TURNS ANY1 AWAY. what is this nonsense.

Final thought

So sikhon there is alot of corruption goin on around some gurdwaras in southall. The places i have mentioned Please pay close attention to them and i will pay close attention to them also.

Seems to me most gurdwaras go asstray when they get involved with "baba". So keep your sights on these so called babeh aswell. When u hear theres some baba in town, main benthi karda keh tusi ounu pajhke na pyar karo. I ask u not to run to him and bow down to them with blind devotion.

bakee samme vich shaanthi rakho. waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ke fateh.

Sat SRi Akaal

If I saw that "baba" I would do matha tekna with my butt. I would sit down with my back towards him..... I only touch my thirdeye to the Gurus feet and thats it. No man can ever get the same respect as Maharaj Guru Granth Ji.

zzzzzzzazzzzzzzzzzzzzz.bmp

[Jaspaul Singh]

Today i went to Ramgharia Gurdwara Sahib in southall. To say i was shocked is an understatement!!!!!! As you walk in firstly you see everyone sittin on tables and chairs and eating langar with their shoes on!!! all this despite several Akal Takht hukamanamas on this subject. Then i spot a gyani walking out of the cooking section with shoes on carryying a bata of Karah Parsad!!! To be honest going to this gurdwara was such a eye opener, the darbar sahib where katha was going on was empty, where as everyone was busy gossiping in the langar hall downstairs!!is this the state of our gurdware today? while the youth goes round tackling the issue of Guru Sahib going to hotels etc, while this is commendable shouldnt we look closer to home and in our own gurdware and make sure hukamname are implemented there. If we cant get them implemented in a gurwara what hope do we have of them being implemented and understood by people of other faiths?

Whats wrong with Table and Chairs? When you go home do you sit on the floor and eat? Even if your sitting on the chairs near a table, everyone is still on the same level when eating. In Singh Sabba Gurdwara you have tables and chairs too. Only difference is that you dont get to sit on the tables but you have to stand near the tables, I choose not to stand near a table and eat since it gives me gas. I would prefer to sit either on the floor or on the chair near a table.

I personly see no problem with having tables and chairs in the Gurdwara.

Spot on Rupz!!!

The table and chairs argument is idiotic. The point of langar is not sitting on the floor but everyone eating together.....regardless of gender, caste, race, or faith.

Historically people never used tables and chairs in India........thats why they wern't used in the old days. This is a Cultural issue, nothing to do with Sikhism. Eating on the floor is unhygenic.

Going to cooking areas without shoes is unhygenic (you can have skin diseases and all sorts on them). Proper overalls should be worn when going into cooking areas.

What I suggest is use of common sense and not turning langar into a form of ritualism (as is being suggested here).

It is idiotic that people bend rules and modernize everthing.

Why dont they just have an online Guru Granth so the Granthis only have to turn the computer on/off to do prakash, Sukh Asan ceremonies?

Why dont they just have a Diwan cable show on tv?

Why dont they have hues/bench seats like in christian churches and have SGGS on a stage higher than the Sangat?

We does the language stay the same when you speak a different language in the society? ae German, french etc.

Why dont they just let you have shoes on and not make you cover your head?

Also with the outdated weapon. Why dont we carry around a pistol in a hulster?

Why dont people clean the langar halls floor as an ishnaan seva?

To save effort by the sangat, Why dont they just order pizza for langar?

Why dont they just say wear hats and sandals in the Darbar?

We dont they have an online goulek for wire transfer donations to the Guru?

So many questions we could ask to completely flip Sikhi over. Which is stupid that one thing leads to the next and gullable people argue for the morphing of the rehat.

hahahahaha that was the best post.. spot on and TRUE!

UK peeps need to tackle this issue .. challo guru kirpa karn!

[Paneer Monster]

Spot on Rupz!!!

The table and chairs argument is idiotic. The point of langar is not sitting on the floor but everyone eating together.....regardless of gender, caste, race, or faith.

Historically people never used tables and chairs in India........thats why they wern't used in the old days. This is a Cultural issue, nothing to do with Sikhism. Eating on the floor is unhygenic.

Going to cooking areas without shoes is unhygenic (you can have skin diseases and all sorts on them). Proper overalls should be worn when going into cooking areas.

What I suggest is use of common sense and not turning langar into a form of ritualism (as is being suggested here).

has times changed so much we have to change the traditions laid down by our Satguru Ji's. If langar on the floor was good enough for them, how can it not be good enough for us?..were our Satguru's "unhygenic (randip singh)" for eating Langar on the floor? do we know better then them to eat on chairs? i agree with pritam singh this guy speaks serious sense. tell me, which person can change the sacred tradition of guru ka Langar?... Who are we to say... "yes, its ok to eat on tables and chairs".... "Pehle pangat, piche sangat" its always been tradition to sit in rows before attending sangat, not sit on chairs in rows.

certain Sikhs change and modify Sikhi and Gurbani to suit there own needs. next you know these ignorant uneducated so called sikhs will be serving pedegree chum at langar to sangat on tables and chairs. a line has to be drawn somewhere before Sikhi heads in this direction.

bhul chuk maaf

vaheguroojeekakhalsaavaheguroojikifateeh

[Sweet Punjaban]

Spot on Rupz!!!

The table and chairs argument is idiotic. The point of langar is not sitting on the floor but everyone eating together.....regardless of gender, caste, race, or faith.

Historically people never used tables and chairs in India........thats why they wern't used in the old days. This is a Cultural issue, nothing to do with Sikhism. Eating on the floor is unhygenic.

Going to cooking areas without shoes is unhygenic (you can have skin diseases and all sorts on them). Proper overalls should be worn when going into cooking areas.

What I suggest is use of common sense and not turning langar into a form of ritualism (as is being suggested here).

has times changed so much we have to change the traditions laid down by our Satguru Ji's. If langar on the floor was good enough for them, how can it not be good enough for us?..were our Satguru's "unhygenic (randip singh)" for eating Langar on the floor? do we know better then them to eat on chairs? i agree with pritam singh this guy speaks serious sense. tell me, which person can change the sacred tradition of guru ka Langar?... Who are we to say... "yes, its ok to eat on tables and chairs".... "Pehle pangat, piche sangat" its always been tradition to sit in rows before attending sangat, not sit on chairs in rows.

certain Sikhs change and modify Sikhi and Gurbani to suit there own needs. next you know these ignorant uneducated so called sikhs will be serving pedegree chum at langar to sangat on tables and chairs. a line has to be drawn somewhere before Sikhi heads in this direction.

bhul chuk maaf

vaheguroojeekakhalsaavaheguroojikifateeh

lol at pedigree chum! (tho thats taking it abit too far lol) :|

[Guest PRITAM SINGH KHALSA]

THIS IS STRECHING IT ABOUT AS FAR AS YOU CAN.

Why dont they just have an online Guru Granth so the Granthis only have to turn the computer on/off to do prakash, Sukh Asan ceremonies?

Why dont they just have a Diwan cable show on tv?

Why dont they have hues/bench seats like in christian churches and have SGGS on a stage higher than the Sangat?

We does the language stay the same when you speak a different language in the society? ae German, french etc.

Why dont they just let you have shoes on and not make you cover your head?

Also with the outdated weapon. Why dont we carry around a pistol in a hulster?

Why dont people clean the langar halls floor as an ishnaan seva?

To save effort by the sangat, Why dont they just order pizza for langar?

Why dont they just say wear hats and sandals in the Darbar?

We dont they have an online goulek for wire transfer donations to the Guru?

[Guest militant singh]

erm whoever said ramgharia was a caste is kind of silly!

ram ghar, guru ram das jis fort and the ramgharia so calld 'caste' is not a caste it is an army!

back in india its near hari mander sahib ile try get pix 4 u lot!

tharkaan is the caste and they are associated with ramgharia but there can b jatt ramgharias aswell it, but the caste system has been abolished by all our gurus so i shouldn;t really be talkin about them should i!

basicallys the ramgharias are so called descendants of the singhs who upheld the 'ram ghar', the fort, and they were then called ramgharias...

sorry if all this is rong Bhul chuk maaf!

sat sri akaaaal purakh jee!

what do u mean im silly?????????????????????????????????they the '''ramgharias'''' themselves say they the TOP ramghria thrakhanscliam 2 be the top caste and go as far as naming gurdware after castes i have personally experienced prejudice cos of this im sure other non '''thrakhans'' have 2 they claim sri guru singh sabha is ''jattan da gurdwara'' among other gurdware and they name other gurdware after the caste system as well so whoever said im stupid do ur research on this specific gurdwara then tell me if im silly a Gurdwara is a sikh place of worship and shouldnt be named after a caste AND WHY HAVE VISHKARAMAS PIC UP ???????????????????????????????????????????/ that needs 2 be removed no 1 cares in the sangat there

[randip singh]

The table and chairs argument is idiotic. The point of langar is not sitting on the floor but everyone eating together.....regardless of gender, caste, race, or faith.

Historically people never used tables and chairs in India........thats why they wern't used in the old days. This is a Cultural issue, nothing to do with Sikhism. Eating on the floor is unhygenic.

Going to cooking areas without shoes is unhygenic (you can have skin diseases and all sorts on them). Proper overalls should be worn when going into cooking areas.

What I suggest is use of common sense and not turning langar into a form of ritualism (as is being suggested here).

What if nice chairs were placed in the diwan hall? How would people react to that? Can you envisage us sitting on seats within the diwan like a church congregation?

If practices seem outdated because of modernity does it mean they are wrong? Stting on the floor is part of our Gurdwara maryada whether in the diwan or langer hall. I mean some people say the kirpan is a dated "weapon" , does that mean if Guru Gobind Singh Ji was alive today his hukam would be that we carry modern day revolvers!

Times may changes but maryada is timeless.

Why not have chairs?

Simply place the Guru Grath Sahib ji on a higher plane. This would ensure that people do not have there legs stretched out (because some people get offended by the feet pointing to Bani.......).

If Guru Gobind Singh ji was alive today, he would ensure we carried the most up to date weaponary. You look at some of Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Shasters at Anand Pur Sahib, they were very modern for their time's and better than others held by contemporaries.

I agree the Maryada is timeless, but the point of the Maryada is different.............it is about people sitting together and eating langar. Now whether they sit on chairs or on the floor is irrelevant.

One thing that does annoy me though is having caste names for Gurudwara's i.e. Ramgarhia, Ravidasia etc.

[randip singh]

Today i went to Ramgharia Gurdwara Sahib in southall. To say i was shocked is an understatement!!!!!! As you walk in firstly you see everyone sittin on tables and chairs and eating langar with their shoes on!!! all this despite several Akal Takht hukamanamas on this subject. Then i spot a gyani walking out of the cooking section with shoes on carryying a bata of Karah Parsad!!! To be honest going to this gurdwara was such a eye opener, the darbar sahib where katha was going on was empty, where as everyone was busy gossiping in the langar hall downstairs!!is this the state of our gurdware today? while the youth goes round tackling the issue of Guru Sahib going to hotels etc, while this is commendable shouldnt we look closer to home and in our own gurdware and make sure hukamname are implemented there. If we cant get them implemented in a gurwara what hope do we have of them being implemented and understood by people of other faiths?

Whats wrong with Table and Chairs? When you go home do you sit on the floor and eat? Even if your sitting on the chairs near a table, everyone is still on the same level when eating. In Singh Sabba Gurdwara you have tables and chairs too. Only difference is that you dont get to sit on the tables but you have to stand near the tables, I choose not to stand near a table and eat since it gives me gas. I would prefer to sit either on the floor or on the chair near a table.

I personly see no problem with having tables and chairs in the Gurdwara.

Spot on Rupz!!!

The table and chairs argument is idiotic. The point of langar is not sitting on the floor but everyone eating together.....regardless of gender, caste, race, or faith.

Historically people never used tables and chairs in India........thats why they wern't used in the old days. This is a Cultural issue, nothing to do with Sikhism. Eating on the floor is unhygenic.

Going to cooking areas without shoes is unhygenic (you can have skin diseases and all sorts on them). Proper overalls should be worn when going into cooking areas.

What I suggest is use of common sense and not turning langar into a form of ritualism (as is being suggested here).

It is idiotic that people bend rules and modernize everthing.

So many questions we could ask to completely flip Sikhi over. Which is stupid that one thing leads to the next and gullable people argue for the morphing of the rehat.

Its not about being modern. :TH:

The pointb of Langar is people sitting together and eating. Different, castes, colours, religions, genders etc. Now if This means sitting on the floor or sitting on at a table, it really makes no difference. We are turning a sybolic gesture by our Guru's and one that represents the central belief of Sikhi of equality into a form of ritualism.

Why dont they just have an online Guru Granth so the Granthis only have to turn the computer on/off to do prakash, Sukh Asan ceremonies?

Why dont they just have a Diwan cable show on tv?

Why dont they have hues/bench seats like in christian churches and have SGGS on a stage higher than the Sangat?

We does the language stay the same when you speak a different language in the society? ae German, french etc.

Why dont they just let you have shoes on and not make you cover your head?

Also with the outdated weapon. Why dont we carry around a pistol in a hulster?

Why dont people clean the langar halls floor as an ishnaan seva?

To save effort by the sangat, Why dont they just order pizza for langar?

Why dont they just say wear hats and sandals in the Darbar?

We dont they have an online goulek for wire transfer donations to the Guru?

As for your other points.

There is nothing stopping people from having an online Guru Granth Sahib ji. I am sure if the Guru’s were alive today, they would have used the latest technology. They were forward looking and embraced new technologies.

The Guru used a form of entertainment like cable to spread their message. These guys were called Dhadhi’s, or Bards, and were really only entertainers until the 6th Master used them to spread his message of heroic tales and deeds.

You could have benches and Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Sitting on floor is a cultural thing (nothing to do with Sikhism). It is peculiar to Eastern countries.

The Guru’s message was (and is Universal). There is no way they would have objected to their message being translated. Infact, the usual language of spiritual thinkers of that part of Inidia was either Sanskrits (and it various forms) or Persian (Arabic script). The Guru’s deliberately kept their message in the commoners tongue. The equivalent would be say if the Guru’s were born in the East End of London…..they would have used symbolism and grammar familiar to Londoners. This was a deliberate two fingered salute to arrogant Pandits and Mullahs.

In the Guru’s time, the congregation was held in rural area’s (Punjab and much or India is rural) where the shoes would be soiled from manure and various other things. Therefore it made sense to take your shoes off when entering the temple. A very practical thing.

Actually the Guru’s surrounded themselves with the latest technologies in weaponry. They kept the best horses. They had the best Artisans, blacksmiths, armourers etc. They valued these people for their innovation in technology and hence why they joined in such numbers. So if the Guru’s were alive today I am sure they would keep the best weaponry around. The Kirpan for the Sikh symbolises many things. Even today a modern day soldier would still keep a blade weapon alongside their firearm.

Cleaning and doing Seva is a key pillar of Sikhi. Now whether its cleaning the floor of the hall, or cleaning tables, makes no odds. :|

We don’t order our food because it would go against the principle of Seva. The point of Seva is to make the things yourself to eat, so in your own small way create something with the sweat of your brow. Guru Nanak, took up Kethi and various other physical work to show us this. Seva can also be mowing your neighbours lawn, doing charity work etc etc.

People can wear hats if in the Gurudwara to cover their heads if the have no handkerchief. A skull cap (worn by muslim, jews, cathloics) is acceptable too. Point is to cover your head.

You can transfer money online to various Sikh institutions. The reason why we get up and go to the Gurudwara, is to ensure we are active within society (in person), and do not withdraw (as the temptation maybe online).

:wub:

As for Jugga...I won't even even bother with a serious response to such a daft post. You have surpassed yourself.

[TavPrasad Singh]

The table and chairs argument is idiotic. The point of langar is not sitting on the floor but everyone eating together.....regardless of gender, caste, race, or faith.

Historically people never used tables and chairs in India........thats why they wern't used in the old days. This is a Cultural issue, nothing to do with Sikhism. Eating on the floor is unhygenic.

Going to cooking areas without shoes is unhygenic (you can have skin diseases and all sorts on them). Proper overalls should be worn when going into cooking areas.

What I suggest is use of common sense and not turning langar into a form of ritualism (as is being suggested here).

What if nice chairs were placed in the diwan hall? How would people react to that? Can you envisage us sitting on seats within the diwan like a church congregation?

If practices seem outdated because of modernity does it mean they are wrong? Stting on the floor is part of our Gurdwara maryada whether in the diwan or langer hall. I mean some people say the kirpan is a dated "weapon" , does that mean if Guru Gobind Singh Ji was alive today his hukam would be that we carry modern day revolvers!

Times may changes but maryada is timeless.

Why not have chairs?

Simply place the Guru Grath Sahib ji on a higher plane. This would ensure that people do not have there legs stretched out (because some people get offended by the feet pointing to Bani.......).

If Guru Gobind Singh ji was alive today, he would ensure we carried the most up to date weaponary. You look at some of Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Shasters at Anand Pur Sahib, they were very modern for their time's and better than others held by contemporaries.

I agree the Maryada is timeless, but the point of the Maryada is different.............it is about people sitting together and eating langar. Now whether they sit on chairs or on the floor is irrelevant.

One thing that does annoy me though is having caste names for Gurudwara's i.e. Ramgarhia, Ravidasia etc.

What do you Think Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is?? Would you sit on a chair in front of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib Ji!!

We have to remember our place, we are Sikhs of the Guru, not Guru of the Guru!! The Maryada is what Guruji teaches his Sikhs.

A bit of manipulation to Maryada is why we are seeing so much beadbi today. Turn your back to Guruji's teachings and you become Manmukh regardless whether you still look like a Sikh or not.

If chairs were that important then Guruji would have got one for Akbar to sit on. The reason we sit on the floor in diwans & langar halls and why we drink Amrit from the same bata is because it eradicates castes, something that Randip is against.

[Singh_392]

LOLLLLLLLLLLLL

you guys are such a bunch of JOKES!!! it's unbelievable

I've been going to this Gurudwara since i was a kid, and all this Baedbi such as drunks etc is a load of S***. You guys just enjoy nindiya tooooo much, carry on, you'll go far.

Nothing is stopping from you sitting on the floor to eat, And somebody mentioned Soho road in Birmingham also has table and chairs as does loads of other Gurudwaras around the country.

And all this about picture of Vishkarma around the Gurudwara, Go into the Gurudwara, its one of the Few that have portraits telling stories of our Gurus.

All i wanna say is you Guys are screwed up, you've been there once and you're making Judgements, the Gurudwara has Veer manpreet Singh diwan every sunday which the whole Sangat loves http://www.ektaone.com/audio/ There's some top kirtanis that perform there.

Judge all you like, i been going there since i was a kid, If you wanna do nindiya GO AHEADDDDD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry for my words, but its just amazing how you talk about this Gurudwara like its a place of gossip and drunks, but you dont realise ITS NOT and the GOSSIP IS GOING ON RIGHT HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good luck

Maf karna