Sants

[curious_man]

thre r saints and holy ppl... otherwise guru sahibs wud have never mentioned tht we shld seek the sanctuary of saints...

anywys... the thing is ... we r no one to tell others who is a sant and who is not...

a sant will be defined in the court of LORD... so all we have to do.. is to sing the praises of LORD and do simran along with the ppl who do the same... IF THEY R IMPOSTERS..THEY R BEING WATCHED BY THE MESSENGER OF DEATH..

pyaare jio... if someone comes into sikhi.. due to someone else.. then its gud for both of them...

everyone says during guru's times...no one was called sant.. remember.. in today's time..its sooooooo hard to find gursikhs.. which have same qualities as the puratan sikhs...

if someone is holy... u may notice..he wud not himself put a sant in his name... but its the ppl... who put it....

how much tht person can say "no dont call me sant"... ppl listen to lectures and kathas... but majority of them still does the same daily routines...

SO IN EFFECT... THRE R SANTS ETC.. WE R NO ONE TO LABEL THEM.. JUST REMAIN IN THE COMPANY IN WHICH GOD'S PRAISES R SUNG... GOD WILL LET U KNO WHO IS A SANT OR NOT !!!!

a very nice topic after a loong time , though

and plzzz forgive me of my mistakes.. .. i m not in a position to debate with u all learned ppl!!

[N30S1NGH]

1. Because many sants do not take amrit in form of sanskar. They do take naam amrit from their gurdev. Like for example many udasi sants do not have singh in their name because they havent taken khanda da amrit in sanskar form. Amrit is Amrit if you study the core of it which is Naam, just because they might take intitation(sanskar) which is different than khanda da amrit does not mean they are invalid or they are less mukht(liberated) or they have less grace etc.

2. Because they have already used 5 kakari rehit to get to akaal purkh, they don't need it anymore.. remember rehat maryada is there to help you to get to akaal purkh but not god itself, they don't make idols of rehat like us, once they are merged with akaal purkh. if they wish they can go mastani avastha

OH OH! So they are ABOVE Guru Gobind SIngh Ji, who having acheived Guruship from the Lord HAD himself taken Amrit, but you claim that these 'sants' are beyond this!!! Waheguru will punish these imposters that don't take Amrit!!

iv realised one thing in my life as a sikh......and that is that we will never fully understand sants unless we are sants ourselves.....due to the main fact that they are on another level to the rest of us........thers so many things we just assume about sants......most of the time "bad assumptions" ...... and iv realised this happens because we can never comprehend the power and kamaee these souls have!

how can we understand those who have done countless years of naam simran.....without doing it ourselves.

True, but the only real ones are those that take Khande Bhate do Amrit, and encourage it and wear the 5 Kakkar INCLUDING the Kirpan!! END OFF!!

I am going to give you reasons. But i m NOT going to debate if their ways are right or wrong. who are we decide or judge sants? It's between them and Akaal Purkh.

1. Because many sants do not take amrit in form of sanskar. They do take naam amrit from their gurdev. Like for example many udasi sants do not have singh in their name because they havent taken khanda da amrit in sanskar form. Amrit is Amrit if you study the core of it which is Naam, just because they might take intitation(sanskar) which is different than khanda da amrit does not mean they are invalid or they are less mukht(liberated) or they have less grace etc.

2. Because they have already used 5 kakari rehit to get to akaal purkh, they don't need it anymore.. remember rehat maryada is there to help you to get to akaal purkh but not god itself, they don't make idols of rehat like us, once they are merged with akaal purkh. if they wish they can go mastani avastha

There are three types of natures of sant mahapursh :

QUOTE

source: The Radiance of complete journey to Akaal Purkh by Sant baba Jagjit Singh Ji Harkhowaley.

Three kinds of BhramGyani(Sants,Mahatama, Mahapursh)...

a Mastane: Intoxicated ones through remembrance get themselves merged with Almighty(Vahiguroo). More carefree un-attached will boldly function. Do not reveal their secret. Talk in Mysterious tone. Very few rarely come to understand. Have no time to teach common people. Always remain lost in spiritual contemplation. Some rare persons can take benefit from them.

b. Divane- Madhin lover remain intoxicated in God's love but give out sometime such inner secret that proves a source of life for the seekers, who after having themselves proven worth in their sight are also able to colour others in God's Love.

c. Daane- The wise ones who live according to what they preach and talk in understandable tone which benefits all and hearing which people renounce evil deeds. They always treat the path of truth and are eager for welfare of one and all.

classic picture of Sant Maharaj Raj Yogi 20th century Avtar Sachkhand Vasi 111 Baba Attar Singh Ji Maharaj Mustaneywale without kakar:

Many mahapursh after getting bhramgyan wore kakars just to be cautious that by looking at them(mastani avastha), their sevadars or others may go astray.

3. Reason they might not say fateh back to you is because they may feel you might have not done anything in the life or for the panth which qualifies - sri akaal purkh victory (VahiguroojikakhalsaVahiguroojikifateh ).

waheguru jee ka khalsa waheguru jee kee fateh

veera are you saying Sants dont have to wear kakaars. i have a q when theese mahapurshes took amrit like everyone else they were (correct me if im rong) told not to remove thier kakkars. so by doing this are they not disobeying the hukam of the Panj Pyare. veer jee i no we dont their rehat but i was just wondering.

Also do these Sants tell thier followers not to wear a Kirpan as well? beacuse i no of ppl who are amritdhri and remove thier kirpans. A true Sant Sipahi like Shaheed Sant Gyani Jarnail Singh Jee Khalsa Bhindrawale never would think about removing kakkars or would nere ever preach that so how come other Mahapurshes did??? (just a question)

Bhul chuk maaf

waheguru jee ka khalsa waheguru jee kee fateh

An even truer SANT SIPAHI WAS GURU GOBIND SING JI, WHO CAN BE MORE HIGHER AND DESERVING OF PRAISE?? HE TOOK AMRIT AND SAID ALL 5 KAKAR SHOULD BE WORN!!!

Sikh is indeed hukami banda with must attitude of "Sat Bachan" towards naam abhyasi mahapursh in form of panj pyares.

I have no doubts Guru Sahib gave sikh rehat of 5 kakari, bibek, after all with bibek rehat one can do bhagti, certain level of suchamta, correct balance between rehat and refrain from idoltry of rehat, controlling of one's gyan indra's/karam indrai's, observing sam dristhi, sabar, shakur, santokh, advait thinking, prem(free from dvaish) discriminating from right to wrong and many other good deeds, virtues is true form of bibek. Guru Sahib gave rehit, bibek to sikhs but felt context of rehit/bibek should be open to sikhs according to one's avastha so that sikhs can interpret bibek according to one's avastha either to adapt strict bibek(sarbloh)/long foot kirtan or completely albela(mastana) towards atamik marg.

I beleive there are two parts of rehit,- outer rehit and inner rehit.

Outer rehit- 5 K's- Refrain yourself from 4 kurahits- eating meat, having sexual intercourse(bhog bilas) outside marriage, cutting/trimming/shaving kesh, taking drugs,and keeping moderate level of bibek.

Inner rehit- doing panj banis, doing simran jap via gurmantar, mool mantar, doing gurbani vichar, discussing adyatamik (spiritual) school of thoughts, learning languages ie- sanskrit, farsi, urdu, persian, braj basha, sadhu basha to understand scriptures, learning bhram vidiya, have seva bhavna and do seva, have virtues- compassion, nonviolence, be in god's will, humility,pateince, contenment, truth to combat- 5 vices- lust, anger, attachment, greed, ego , observe your mind/thought process/study it and with simran eliminate thoughts, anxeity, dvaish bhavna.

Jagiaso: Jagiaso like us must need rehat maryada to get to akaal purkh. Jagiaso must follow outer and inner rehat maryada given by their panj pyares.

Bhramgyani: Bhramgyani does not make outer rehat an "idol". Bhramgyani's have used rehat in their previous avastha but in bhramgyan avastha he/she is not bound to follow outer rehat maryada of khalsa uniform be it if its sarbloh bibek or to wear kakars. However, most but not all bhramgyanis do follow rehat maryada not because they must or they are afraid to make guru sahiban unhappy, they are fully intoxicated and merge with guru sahiban and his grace. Most of them follow outer maryada so that devotee's in their sangat or devoote's generally does not go astray, start acting like mahapursh and became bheki sikhs(with no naam inside).

Eg- Like to share couple of sakhi's out of many. This sakhi talks about sant jawala singh ji harkhowale (anmol ratan of bhai dya singh samparda) -

source: The Radiance of complete journey to Akaal Purkh by Sant baba Jagjit Singh Ji Harkhowaley

"sant baba jawala singh ji was very close with sant baba

gurbachan singh ji bhindranvale .. baba jawala singh ji when he lived with udasi mastana

fakir- baba kahn das ji after getting premission from his murshid/gurdev - baba aya singh ji hoti mardanwaley..he got so intoxicated with naam rang living with mastana fakir... he toook off all his clothes... sat on a river in naam masti rang..upon hearing this baba aya singh ji advised him to take amrit again that not that he committed any kurahit or broke any rehit or guru maharaj was not happy but only because sant baba jawala singh ji's students may not get this kautak and may go astray..mahapursh according to their will...they can adapt any three natures.

2nd sakhi- Gyani Thakur Singh Ji Patialewale (student of baba kartar singh ji bhindranwale shares this sakhi in his japji sahib audio katha)/ this mahapursh baba bann batta was also very close with vadaie sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale

Once in ludhiana, there was gurmukh/mahapursh bhramgyani saint named- baba ban batta. Baba ji always used to hold an ban(arrow) and wear khadar cloth to cover up and all day used to wander around like mastna in the village .

In close by village, there was another female saint bhramgyani - named Chando. Chando also used to wander around naked in the village. Everyone respected her, they all knew she was very high elevated saint. When baba ban batta came in her village, saint chando quickly get a cloth from someone to cover herself and bow down(matha taiked) to baba ban batta. Upon this incident, one shopkeeper was suprised to see this incident and asked her, why you cover yourself only when he comes not other times you don't feel shy infront of us.

She replied in carefree tone, are you people even bandaie/males? you people are still istraie roop (wives) roop. Only baba ban batta is purkh(real mard/man) because he is bhram gyani. He did bhagti of that akaal purkh that akaal purkh attributes came in him. He also became purkh..

*Three natures of Mahapursh:

source: The Radiance of complete journey to Akaal Purkh by Sant baba Jagjit Singh Ji Harkhowaley.

Three natures of (BhramGyani/Sants/Mahatama/Mahapursh)

1. Mastane: Intoxicated ones through remembrance get themselves merged with Almighty(Vahiguroo). More carefree un-attached will boldly function. Do not reveal their secret. Talk in Mysterious tone. Very few rarely come to understand. Have no time to teach common people. Always remain lost in spiritual contemplation. Some rare persons can take benefit from them.

2. Divane- Madhin lover remain intoxicated in God's love but give out sometime such inner secret that proves a source of life for the seekers, who after having themselves proven worth in their sight are also able to colour others in God's Love.

3. Daane- The wise ones who live according to what they preach and talk in understandable tone which benefits all and hearing which people renounce evil deeds. They always treat the path of truth and are eager for welfare of one and all.

Mahapursh sometimes does things which are very strange even contary too many sikhs mindset .. these above sakhiya's were exceptational and belongs to grey area..accepting them or not that depends on how each person see this world- is it black(do) and white(don'ts)? or acknowledges grey area and accepts it. I m sure if such sakhiys i have narrated were narrated to people who see sikhi- black and white ..they would have never accepted such sakhiya's .

1. First they will deny it because it challenges their mindset

2. They will claim saints committing maha manmat and will judge them with with their own thinking

I beleive, sikhi is not black and white dharam. Grey area is very crucial in sikhi..if person does not accept grey area they end up in long debates, squablles, my way is highway and do and don't... if person acknowledges and accepts grey area in sikhi which is exceptional area then their horizons get broaden and then they see and apperciate light of knowledge(gyan) and Vahiguroo's creation (Sat Chit Anand Svaroop Jagat) with no dvaish.

Regarding the attitude of they must take amrit otherwise they are imposters, that is not entirely true at all, infact this is very attitude that made panth - dandi kala instead of chardi-kalah, same attitude created singh sabha 200 years after khalsa panth. what do they know about the reality - oral and spiritual traditions of khalsa panth which sampardha's/orders (taksal, nirmale, nihangs, sevapanthis, udasi) of khalsa panth very well aware of.

Lets not even look very far, lets look at the damdami taksal (well known and well perferred samparda) even recnognized, respected by hard core (katar panthis ) in the panth. Even mahapursh in taksal acknowledge udasi panth interlinked with khalsa panth, in other words - udasi mahapursh who don't take khanda da amrit but charan amrit from gurdev are part of khalsa panth, ask any older taksali they will tell you sakhi of taksali mahapursh like- sant gyani 108 baba gurbachan singh ji khalsa bhindranwale (amrit dhari rehit dhari sant) mingling just fine udasi albela mastana fakir/sadhu (not amritdhari) and doing sat kar of them.

In fact there is a picture udasi mahapursh in a towel non amritdhari mahapursh standing beside with baba gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale,

[ms514]

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Definition of a Sikh - student. Definition of a Guru - teacher.

Ergo, the student's job is to follow the Guru. If the student believes himself/herself to have surpassed the Guru's teaching or finds it acceptable to conform to his/her own standards, then that person ceases to be a Sikh.

Want evidence? Read Guru Granth Sahib on what a Sikh is and what a Guru is. Sorry if black and white is not something acceptable...the Shabad Guru is quite black and white as per a Sikh's duty and the Guru's position.

[ghumangee]

Sikh is indeed hukami banda with must attitude of "Sat Bachan" towards naam abhyasi mahapursh

oae tere warge hukmi bandiann deann Dheean Bhaina nu jandonn tuhade mahan purshan de" sat bachann "

manke ihna de Bedrooms wich jana penda hai tan agonn tere warge...... murkhan da Avtar hinda hai mahanpursh phire ithe hee sabar nahee karde tere warge bachiann nu wee bedroom(bhore)

wich ja ke wakhre widia paroonde hann.....(aje thore dinn hoe Dhume taksalee de khabar wee Sanjh Swera peper wich lagi see ki bachiann nu kihoo jahee widia denda riha hai )

rahee gall tuhade Deriann de kihra dera hai jithe Bibiann nall te bachiann nall kukarm nahee hoia ?????????

if you need proofs...... jihriaa bibiann ihnann mahanpurshann (sadhan) de deriann te jandian hann...

sab de bachiann da,..... DNA .....test karwa ke wekh (even apna wee) mostly 80% HARRAM De (babeann de full kirpa nall ) jame honge .....kise da DNA apne aslee pio nall nahee milda howega .......

par tere laee tann ihh wee khushi walee (DHANBHAGAN) gall howege ...........

par ijjat ankh wale bandiann laee ihh dub ke marn walee gall hundi hai...............

[N30S1NGH]

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Definition of a Sikh - student. Definition of a Guru - teacher.

Ergo, the student's job is to follow the Guru. If the student believes himself/herself to have surpassed the Guru's teaching or finds it acceptable to conform to his/her own standards, then that person ceases to be a Sikh.

Want evidence? Read Guru Granth Sahib on what a Sikh is and what a Guru is. Sorry if black and white is not something acceptable...the Shabad Guru is quite black and white as per a Sikh's duty and the Guru's position.

Nobody has surpassed guru's teaching, basic fundamental guru's teaching:

1. Naam Japo

2. Kirat Karo

3. Vand kaie Chako

Saints have done all that, they do kirat of naam kaamiya, also do vand kaie chakna- giving sri guru nanak dev ji bhandars to others.

i m going to straight up , outer rehat(kakari rehit) exculding keshas* is standard which one needs to follow in socio relegious circle.. gurus have specifically created for people in socio-relegious circle, one who rise above from socio-religious dharam, and gets into end mystical reality of any dharam which is naam and ends with naam.. they are not bound to socio-religious rules/principles...

*kesh are very important in both sides..it's extremely significant to have kesh.

it's very evident we as living in socio-religious circle can never ever truly comprehend reality which saints live in different sphere.

Sikh is indeed hukami banda with must attitude of "Sat Bachan" towards naam abhyasi mahapursh

oae tere warge hukmi bandiann deann Dheean Bhaina nu jandonn tuhade mahan purshan de" sat bachann "

manke ihna de Bedrooms wich jana penda hai tan agonn tere warge...... murkhan da Avtar hinda hai mahanpursh phire ithe hee sabar nahee karde tere warge bachiann nu wee bedroom(bhore)

wich ja ke wakhre widia paroonde hann.....(aje thore dinn hoe Dhume taksalee de khabar wee Sanjh Swera peper wich lagi see ki bachiann nu kihoo jahee widia denda riha hai )

rahee gall tuhade Deriann de kihra dera hai jithe Bibiann nall te bachiann nall kukarm nahee hoia ?????????

if you need proofs...... jihriaa bibiann ihnann mahanpurshann (sadhan) de deriann te jandian hann...

sab de bachiann da,..... DNA .....test karwa ke wekh (even apna wee) mostly 80% HARRAM De (babeann de full kirpa nall ) jame honge .....kise da DNA apne aslee pio nall nahee milda howega .......

par tere laee tann ihh wee khushi walee (DHANBHAGAN) gall howege ...........

par ijjat ankh wale bandiann laee ihh dub ke marn walee gall hundi hai...............

all i can say to your post- saraie ungliya(fingers) ik barbar nahi hundiya.

and stop bringing my sisters into this debate.

i m talking about real mahapursh not fake ones, if you wish to talk about fake mahapursh , go create a another damn thread.

[SSM]

Ghumangee you are full of filth from the inside, your soul needs a good scrub.

Women that go to a sants dera do not go there to have sex. I don't want to use that word here but I will, your post is sick. And who are you to come out with the firgure of 80%, do you have any experience there to share with the sangat?

If you know so much about deras then surely you visited one or many and saw babae doing things with women.

Full of filth and yet you call yourself a sikh.

And if you love Punjabi so much why don't you change your font, you type Punjabi using English, you are using the English letters so why not the words?

You need some help, get it!

[ms514]

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Namastang Sahib, does the Guru Granth Sahib not state to follow the Guru's teachings? It does, doesn't it? Well, if a Sikh is bestowed Amrit from the Guru in the form of the Panj Pyare, then that individual is bound to follow the Guru's Rehat. No matter how high the avasta. Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself tested his Sikhs in this manner by committing an act that made him a tankhaya (bowing his arrow to a dead man's grave) and gladly paid the fine to the Khalsa. This set the precedent that NO SIKH, regardless the avasta, cannot abandon the Rehat and simply so whatever they desire. That is the definition of manmat. If it applies to the Guru, it applies to the Sikh too.

Once you take that pledge to be a Sikh, you take it in front of Guru and God. I am not here to explain/denounce/praise/explain Sants, but I can say that the Guru Granth Sahib does not teach in accordance to what you are stating. Again, this is in specific reference to a Sikh. There are plenty of saadhs, mastaanae and other highly spiritual people...I am not referring to them. We are talking of Sikhs here.

Bhul Chuk Maaf.

[N30S1NGH]

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Namastang Sahib, does the Guru Granth Sahib not state to follow the Guru's teachings? It does, doesn't it? Well, if a Sikh is bestowed Amrit from the Guru in the form of the Panj Pyare, then that individual is bound to follow the Guru's Rehat. No matter how high the avasta. Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself tested his Sikhs in this manner by committing an act that made him a tankhaya (bowing his arrow to a dead man's grave) and gladly paid the fine to the Khalsa. This set the precedent that NO SIKH, regardless the avasta, cannot abandon the Rehat and simply so whatever they desire. That is the definition of manmat. If it applies to the Guru, it applies to the Sikh too.

Once you take that pledge to be a Sikh, you take it in front of Guru and God. I am not here to explain/denounce/praise/explain Sants, but I can say that the Guru Granth Sahib does not teach in accordance to what you are stating. Again, this is in specific reference to a Sikh. There are plenty of saadhs, mastaanae and other highly spiritual people...I am not referring to them. We are talking of Sikhs here.

Bhul Chuk Maaf.

Ms514 ji, Sri Guru Granth Sahib does tell you to follow Guru Sahiban, teaching. Lets look at the context of rehit which is given to the sikhs by looking at the essence of amrit , amrit has three forms- 1. Sanskar Amrit 2. Naam Amrit(naam ceremony). 3. Bhramgyan Amrit. Sanskar Amrit(khanda da amrit) and rehat are given to the students so one day that student can merge with bhram(God/Nirgun Nanak Joti Paratama). That is whole purpose of the rehat maryada, is to merge with God when this being is merged with God, avastha is sam there is no up and down. There is no me and god (twoness) there is only oneness, in that state if bhramgyani sant khalsa wishes can take any kriya they wish they can be fully albela or fully in rehat, change in outer kriya does not effect their inner avastha. Because they have already surpasses their outer rehit which helped them a bit to get to that state, if they don't wish they don't have to or they are not bound to.

This is my last post. I can only say , i don't expect you to understand the other side, after all people with socio-religious circle always have mis understood, mis -interpret , judge based on their little understanding of sikhi.. they have always judged mahapursh belong to other sphere, called them manmati, pakhandi, kamla. Mahapursh avastha is sam, they couldnt care less of what people think about them, it's between them and vahiguroo (nanak nirankari jot himself).

[ms514]

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Namastang Sahib, I have engaged you in many debates before. The crux of our arguement is always, and I imagine will be, the same. You argue that Sikhi has to be an outside the box religion which has to look at plurality as natural and a part of Sikhi. I always up contending like a broken record that the Rehat of a Sikh is supreme and that a Sikh must follow it regardless of their advancement of spirituality. I feel that we shall always be at odds in this point. I do not state it to argue with you, I state it to provide the counter-point. And I shall continue to do so in the very spirit of the plurality that you maintain you want to uphold. Us "Sharia Sikhs", as you refer to your brothers and sisters, ARE part of the Khalsa Panth too. Is it not hypocrisy to on one hand expound the virtues of the "Boh Panthi Khalsa" (the pluralistic Khalsa with its Sampardayas that have become the neo-Sikh caste system as of late), and on the other hand to vehmently attempt to state that those with a different viewpoint then your own or those in your select group is wrong? Is this not against plurality as well? I thought plurality was all encompassing, but I seem to be sadly mistaken. Odd how Udasis, who maintained moorti puja and Hindu rituals are acceptable in the "Snatani Khalsa", but "Katar Panthis" who adhere strictly to the Rehat of the Panj Pyare are not?

Bhai Sahib, the Rehat comes from the Guru, not some everyday person. You can become a general of an army, but you do not disown the code of conduct that a private embodies as his/her daily routine.

Sorry, whatever you state is not backed by Gurbani, which states time and time again to do what the Guru Sahib says. The very word Gurmukh means that person who has his/her face to the Guru and is held in high regard. The manmukh is that person who has his/her face towards his/her own desires and wishes AWAY from the Guru. Even if someone was the highest of saints and willingly turned away from the very discipline they swore to is a patit, or a rebel. The example of Guru Gobind Singh Ji illustrates that point adequately. That is stated plainly in Gurbani and the Rehat. And just as a Sikh is a Sant-Siphai, he/she has a code of conduct to adhere to. Transgressions are not permitted, even to generals in worldly armies, how are they allowed in the army of the Almighty?

When Guru Gobind Singh Ji made that call in 1699, did he forbid the Udasis, the Nirmalas and the Sewapanthis from getting up and becoming Sikhs? No, he invited all he knew and told them to partake of Amrit. He went to everyone and told them so. He did not say, "Hey you, become a Sewapanthi, you a Udasi, you a Nirmala. You don't need Amrit, just get whatever Gyan you need from your Ustad". Sorry, neither Gurbani nor history backs that. Rather, Guru Sahib is noted as saying that all should abandon their previous castes and associations and unite under the one brotherhood of the Khalsa, as chronicled by a Persian journalist/spy. The purpose was to unite mankind, not to divide it. True, there are people who will give expression to that faith differently, but not outside the confines of a general code of conduct. You cannot just be a Sant or just a Siphai in Sikhi, you HAVE to be both. That IS the path of Sikhi.

Bhul Chuk Maaf. I am not here to convince anyone of anything, but at least to offer a simple counter-point.

[N30S1NGH]

Namastang Sahib, I have engaged you in many debates before. The crux of our arguement is always, and I imagine will be, the same. You argue that Sikhi has to be an outside the box religion which has to look at plurality as natural and a part of Sikhi. I always up contending like a broken record that the Rehat of a Sikh is supreme and that a Sikh must follow it regardless of their advancement of spirituality. I feel that we shall always be at odds in this point. I do not state it to argue with you, I state it to provide the counter-point. And I shall continue to do so in the very spirit of the plurality that you maintain you want to uphold.

My view of plaurity comes from updesh of sri guru granth sahib ji in which guru maharaj himself talks about his divine discourses belongs to everyone not just particular dharam, order, sect, cult etc. Anyone can benefit it from it if he/she follows updesh from gurbani which mainly focuses on (naam, guru( one may interpret guru from adhatamic context- anyone brings this being from darkness to spiritual light), seva, bhram upasana(seing god in all).

Khatri, Bhramin, Vaish, Shud updesh Chuo Varna Ko Sanjha (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji) (I might not have pronounce gurbani correctly here, so appolize).

Fact that Bhagat Kabir, Baba Farid and other great bhagats divine message in sri guru granth sahib, their anubhav(expereinces) are all in sri guru granth sahib ji shows plaurity as natural in sikhi.

Fact that there are many quotes of baba farid, bhagat kabir, bhagat ravidas, bhagat namdev breaking all the ritualistic socio religious boundaries to uphold their link towards mystical reality of dharam they belong to when oppressed by sharia type people back around that time. This shows plaurity is in Sikhi.. because they and their teachings are included in sarab kala bharpoor sri guru granth sahib ji.

I am not saying Sikhi was never meant to have rehat maryada or is not needed at all. That would be blaphemous off course. Not saying that at all. I am just saying and poiltely disagree with you because as you were saying outer* rehat of a Sikh is supreme . Outer Rehit of a sikh explicity speaking wearing of kakars- keski, kachera, kirpan, kanga etc is must for us students but bhramgyanis sant khalsa are not bound to it because they have taken full advantage of outer rehit which helped them to get to state of one with akaal purkh. After that state, in hearts of bhramgyani - word panth is there, word maryada is there, word panj pyares are there, word khalsa is there, but their meanings get broaden and context gets broaden because they rise above from socio-religious circle which is attitude shared by many dharams etc- oh yes this is my dharam, oh yes sikhs have manoply over naam-akaal purkh, oh yes this dharam is best of all, oh yes any person who didnt took khanda da amrit cannot be liberated at all be it its hindu, muslim, christian, oh yes if one does not read ragmalla, dasam bani one reports to dharam raja and get wrath from guru ji (that's my attitude, ashamed but true and i admit it )

Outer rehit - Please note Reason i mentioned "outer" word because that's what this whole thread is about. This thread is not about inner rehit at all. Nor I m in disagreement with anyone view that inner rehit of sikh is supreme and is until the end. You would see my previous posts in this thread what's my defination of inner rehit is? i m sure my defination of inner rehit is pretty much same as yours.

Us "Sharia Sikhs", as you refer to your brothers and sisters, ARE part of the Khalsa Panth too. Is it not hypocrisy to on one hand expound the virtues of the "Boh Panthi Khalsa" (the pluralistic Khalsa with its Sampardayas that have become the neo-Sikh caste system as of late), and on the other hand to vehmently attempt to state that those with a different viewpoint then your own or those in your select group is wrong? Is this not against plurality as well? I thought plurality was all encompassing, but I seem to be sadly mistaken. Odd how Udasis, who maintained moorti puja and Hindu rituals are acceptable in the "Snatani Khalsa", but "Katar Panthis" who adhere strictly to the Rehat of the Panj Pyare are not?

I don't label sharia sikhs anyone who does not agree with me or sampardai version of sikhi. I label the mentality of such people, their mindset which i target the most not the personality at the end of day there is no sharia sikh but sharia thinking adapted by an sikhi if you want to be really politically correct. That's what i really mean which i mention words sharia sikhs, katarpanthis.

Udasi rituals- morti puja and hindu rituals. these traditions are not encouraged in the circle of samparda's but udasi loyality towards baba sri chand maharaj and his father sri guru nanak dev ji maharaj and their parchar all of south india as missionary, spreading the name sarab kala bharpoor sri guru nanak dev ji nirankar to everyone in india for centuries cannot be ignored not only that they have many contributions to khalsa panth, they don't represent khalsa panth but they are very inter-linked with khalsa panth even though some of outer rituals they do is contary to gurmat but inner mindset is very much alike to sikhi gurmat.

Sacche Patshah Guru Amar Das Ji and Guru Har Gobind Ji gave their eldest sons to Baba Sri Chand Ji

Baba Mohan Ji was Guru Amar Das's eldest son, and Baba Gurditta Ji was Guru Har Gobind's eldest son.

Before passing away, Guru Nanak Dev blessed Baba Sri Chand Ji.Baba Sri Chand was blessed by Guru Nanak Dev with great miraculous powers.During his very long life (some say 130 years, some 150!!) he was respected by all the Guru.

Baba Sri Chand writing is also accepted by latter guru and it's included in sri guru granth sahib i beleive sukhmani sahi.

Also

Did you know that Baba Sri Chand Ji composed a love filled poem to his Beloved Father?Here is Baba Sri Chand Ji's Aartaa to his father, Guru Nanak Dev:

"Let us sing the praises of Nanak, King of kings of both worlds

The whole world is His temple, congregations sing sweet songs in His praise

Millions of goddesses kindle holy lights in His honor

All the gods sing psalms of His praises

All wash His lotus feet

The Sun and moon illuminate Him with their radiance

He is garlanded with mountains of flowers

The True Master, the fountain of Light is merciful to the poor

The king of the winds fans Him while saints and sages meditate on His holiness

The whole universe vibrates with His celestial song

The bells ring out - Onkar

Continuously illuminating the heavens

He is one with God whose name is Truth

In Nanak saints find their support

Siri Chand, Nanak's son, declares Nanak is unattainable,

unfathomable, unshakeable and pure

Whoever sings Emperor Nanak's praises resides in heaven and achieves complete salvation

Oh kind master: give protection to those who seek your shelter.

Oh Nanak: You are the savior we are just your children" - Baba Sri Chand

Bhai Sahib, the Rehat comes from the Guru, not some everyday person. You can become a general of an army, but you do not disown the code of conduct that a private embodies as his/her daily routine.

When Guru Gobind Singh Ji made that call in 1699, did he forbid the Udasis, the Nirmalas and the Sewapanthis from getting up and becoming Sikhs? No, he invited all he knew and told them to partake of Amrit. He went to everyone and told them so. He did not say, "Hey you, become a Sewapanthi, you a Udasi, you a Nirmala. You don't need Amrit, just get whatever Gyan you need from your Ustad". Sorry, neither Gurbani nor history backs that. Rather, Guru Sahib is noted as saying that all should abandon their previous castes and associations and unite under the one brotherhood of the Khalsa, as chronicled by a Persian journalist/spy. The purpose was to unite mankind, not to divide it. True, there are people who will give expression to that faith differently, but not outside the confines of a general code of conduct. You cannot just be a Sant or just a Siphai in Sikhi, you HAVE to be both. That IS the path of Sikhi.

Bhul Chuk Maaf. I am not here to convince anyone of anything, but at least to offer a simple counter-point.

All the sampardha's(taksal, nirmale, nihangs) beleive in amrit and take sanskar khanda batt da amrit. In fact there are two orders of nirmale are created by bhai dya singh ji and bhai dharam singh ji. How could they not beleive in amrit?

Only samparda which have different sanskar amrit(be it charan or other intiation) are udasi and sevapanthis.

read upon sevapanthi and detailed beleif and common misconception people have about them:

http://www.sewapanthi.org/

it's been long post, any errors, typo please forgive.