To N30 Singh

[>Bikramjit Singh<]

WJKK WJKF

N30 Singh

I have read some of your posts on various threads and I have a few questions for you

1. You stated that Sikhi has many flavours and one should pick one and stay with that ? Are you saying that Sikhi is a religion of sects ?. Did the Gurus preach Sikhi to be a collection of various sects rather than just Sikhism. No founder of a religion has ever created two or three sets of followers. Did the Gurus create different types of Sikhs ?.

2. You have referred to Sampardhayas who have a lineage going back to the Gurus. What research have you done on them and what makes you think that any Sampardhya which has a lineage going back to the Gurus has the right to claim themselves to be the only true Sikhs and their Amrit to be the only true Amrit ?. Over time every Sampardhya is liable to corruption and so have the four Sampardhyas that you are been referring to. Didn't Guru Gobind Singh finish the Masand system when they became corrupt even through they had a lineage going back to the Fifth Guru ?.

3. You have, in imitation of the Nangs started to refer to the Guru Granth Sahib as 'Aad Guru Durbar', the Dasam Granth as 'Dasam Guru Durbar' and Sarbloh Granth as 'Sarbloh Guru Durbar', why ?. You have claimed to be a Taksali and sometimes a Nanaksari on sikawareness but does the Taksal refer to the Guru Granth Sahib as 'aad Guru Durbar' ?. Does it give the title of Guru to the Sarbloh Granth ?. If you believe the Sarbloh Granth to be Guru can you give us some reasons why you think that Sarbloh Granth is Gurbani. I am right in thinking that you have not read the Sarbloh Granth, if that is so t

hen what led you to conclude that it is Gurbani ?. I ask this question solely because I am interested to know why someone like yourself would believe in the Sarbloh Granth as Gurbani when only a few dozen Uk nangs believe in it be so and a few thousand Nihangs in India.

Thanks in advance for the answers

Btw you can get any help you want from Narsingha and Lallesvari to answer these questions.

GurFateh

Bikramjit

Admin note: We are only letting this discussion among Bikramjeet Singh and N30 take place because Bikramjeet Singh has asked all his questions using polite speech, and we are also expecting that N30 will not step down the ladder to prove his points. If something happens and 'both' of these men decide to take the rough path to discuss topics we will have to close this thread. Others may only contribute to this thread if they wish to correct the 'points' given by either party. 'Off the topic' posts will be removed immediatly without any notice or warning.

[Guest Akaal108]

vaheguroojikakhalsavaheguroojikifateh,

you wrote:

1. You stated that Sikhi has many flavours and one should pick one and stay with that ? Are you saying that Sikhi is a religion of sects ?. Did the Gurus preach Sikhi to be a collection of various sects rather than just Sikhism. No founder of a religion has ever created two or three sets of followers. Did the Gurus create different types of Sikhs ?.

No i m not sayin sikhism is relegion of sects...concentration is one- siri guroo granth sahib ji...Sab sikhan koo hakum hai guroo menou granth. Though there are 5 different sampardama (flavours) within the panth. Thats not really an sect is it??? If concentration is one- siri guroo granth sahib ji. Also i just came to know nirmaalie do practised khanda batta da amrit since they were baptised themselves by guroo gobind singh ji maharaj.

As far seva-panthis are concern... i dont know if they practised khanda batta da amrit ..not sure.. but i know udhasis not ..but they are still sikhs...

here is what sgpc has to say: Read this

Then what the SGPC say Udasis are Sikhs, says SGPC chief

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2002/20021210/main7.htm

Thats what i meant by flavours.... nothing wrong with having different beleifs(not sects) among the panth to approach god.. I would like to stress again- we need tolerance and acce

ptance both sides...

2. You have referred to Sampardhayas who have a lineage going back to the Gurus. What research have you done on them and what makes you think that any Sampardhya which has a lineage going back to the Gurus has the right to claim themselves to be the only true Sikhs and their Amrit to be the only true Amrit ?. Over time every Sampardhya is liable to corruption and so have the four Sampardhyas that you are been referring to. Didn't Guru Gobind Singh finish the Masand system when they became corrupt even through they had a lineage going back to the Fifth Guru ?.

I dont think sampardama has any right to claim themselves their amrit to be only true amrit... i know nihangs of uk claim that.. they are wrong in that case..mind you i m not representing nihangs or any other sampardama.. i m representing tolerance and acceptance of what one's beleif. Amrit is only one.. same for everyone...

I also agree with you samparadya is liable to get curropted over time.. but look at takshal ideally here, they have easy-goin with everyone.. they were closely alinged with nihangs *(buddhal dal, taurna dal) and nirmalie sampardama (nanaksar, rara sahib)... they respect each other views. Obviously, when it comes to slandering mahapursh or shaaheds.. no sikh should stand that...

3. You have, in imitation of the Nangs started to refer to the Guru Granth Sahib as 'Aad Guru Durbar', the Dasam Granth as 'Dasam Guru Durbar' and Sarbloh Granth as 'Sarbloh Guru Durbar', why ?. You have claimed to be a Taksali and sometimes a Nanaksari on sikawareness but does the Taksal refer to the Guru Granth Sahib as 'aad Guru Durbar' ?. Does it give the title of Guru to the Sarbloh Granth ?. If you believe the Sarbloh Granth to be Guru can you give us some reasons why you think that

Sarbloh Granth is Gurbani. I am right in thinking that you have not read the Sarbloh Granth, if that is so then what led you to conclude that it is Gurbani ?. I ask this question solely because I am interested to know why someone like yourself would believe in the Sarbloh Granth as Gurbani when only a few dozen Uk nangs believe in it be so and a few thousand Nihangs in India.

Show me where i have used aad guroo durbar?.. i refer always our granth to siri guroo granth sahib... yes i refer dasam guroo durbar or dasam dii bani or even dasam granth sahib....sarbloh guroo durbar...

I m not scholar like yourself, so i cant prove sarbloh guroo darbar is bani to you or not...but i have faith in guroo's and thats alll you need. Thats is what takshal taught me.. to have 120% faith in all the sikh scriptures... whether its siri guroo granth sahib ji (ragmalla included). dasam di bani or sarbloh guroo darbar. They taught me if you cant get something or have doubts.. thats the fault of your understanding.. enhance your understanding and broaden your horizon and read it again..

Unfortunately, Where fake scholars has gyan and saint has bhram + gyan ...still our sikhs of today will rely on scholars who would first doubt gurbani and filter out the parts in gurbani just because it doesnt make sense to them... is this really right???. They cant listen to mahapurhs bachan for 2 secs but can read book worth 2 dollars in the market.

I respect every jathabandis and sampardya.. they will represent something special. I beleive they all have something positive to offer to us sikh (learners).. for example-

Damdami takshal- vidiya of shud bani gurbani, and shows us to have 120 % faith in all sikh scriptures..offer us to show how to do missionary work

Nihangs- Respect for sikh scriptures, Respect for shastar's and vidiya of shastars.. how to handle the oppresors..

Nirmalie (Nanaksar, Rara sahib) - Offers

us to learn different languages and concentrate more on bhakti marg. Also offer us to how to tolerant of other faith's... offer us to show to do missionary work

Udhasis- offer us to show how to do missionary work

Seevapanthis- Offer us to how to do real seeva... "Murda hoi na murid, gali hov na"... seeva for humanity regardless of faith- Bhai Kehnya ji... he saw guroo maharaj ji in his enemy as well...freind or foe.. no disctincation

AKJ- Offer us to bring woman in equality...give woman chance to do kirtan, also offer and remind us "Kalyug mein kirtan pardhana"

Dodra- offer us to be tolerant.... allowing non-sikh(baptised) to do kirtan... Guroo nanak sahib nirankar allow everyone to take part in congreation.

Btw you can get any help you want from Narsingha and Lallesvari to answer these questions.

I dont need no help from them. I have my views... My views will hurt who do slandering mahapursh, god, demi-gods, shaheeds and who chop off maharaj's ang (bani) just because they think they know better... so be it... i m not here to have gold medal from such people..i m here to tell them to have faith in guroo maharaj bani and bachan...thats all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Akaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal hee akaaaaaaal

anand hii anand

[>Bikramjit Singh<]

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

N30 Singh

No i m not sayin sikhism is relegion of sects...concentration is one- siri guroo granth sahib ji...Sab sikhan koo hakum hai guroo menou granth. Though there are 5 different sampardama (flavours) within the panth. Thats not really an sect is it??? If concentration is one- siri guroo granth sahib ji. Also i just came to know nirmaalie do practised khanda batta da amrit since they were baptised themselves by guroo gobind singh ji maharaj.

As far seva-panthis are concern... i dont know if they practised khanda batta da amrit ..not sure.. but i know udhasis not ..but they are still sikhs...

Are there now 5 Sampardhyas ?. I thought that Sanatan Sikhi only believes in 4 Sampardhyas as having a lineage going back to the Gurus ?. It is easy to explain your concept of different flavours by claiming that the concentration is still one. But this is not what Gurbani teaches.

I respect every jathabandis and sampardya.. they will represent something special. I beleive they all have something positive to offer to us sikh (learners).. for example-

>

Damdami takshal- vidiya of shud bani gurbani, and shows us to have 120 % faith in all sikh scriptures..offer us to show how to do missionary work

Nihangs- Respect for sikh scriptures, Respect for shastar's and vidiya of shastars.. how to handle the oppresors..

Nirmalie (Nanaksar, Rara sahib) - Offers us to learn different languages and concentrate more on bhakti marg. Also offer us to how to tolerant of other faith's... offer us to show to do missionary work

Udhasis- offer us to show how to do missionary work

Seevapanthis- Offer us to how to do real seeva... "Murda hoi na murid, gali hov na"... seeva for humanity regardless of faith- Bhai Kehnya ji... he saw guroo maharaj ji in his enemy as well...freind or foe.. no disctincation

AKJ- Offer us to bring woman in equality...give woman chance to do kirtan, also offer and remind us "Kalyug mein kirtan pardhana"

The above definations have remarkable similarity with the way that Hinduism has been divided.

Brahmin = Nirmala

Kshatriya = Nihang

Yogi = Udasi

Shudra = Sewapanthi

Guru Nanak in Asa Di // remarks on the different religious duties assigned to the Hindu divisions

The Yogis way is to seek enlightment

The Brahmin's to follow the Vedas

The Kshatris is heroism

The Shudra's service to others

But to the one who understands this matter

Knows that there is one and same way for all ( SGGS page 469 )

Do you really think that after Guru Nanak's criticism of the different divisions of the Hindus that Guru Gobind Singh would then create the same divisions in Sikhi ?

I dont think sampardama has any right to claim themselves their amrit to be only true amrit... i know nihangs of uk claim that.. they

are wrong in that case..mind you i m not representing nihangs or any other sampardama.. i m representing tolerance and acceptance of what one's beleif. Amrit is only one.. same for everyone

Tolerance is all very well but it is not just the UK Nangs that say that their Amrit is the only true Amrit but the Budha Dal claim this as well. As for Nirmalas their Amrit is also different and Udasis use Charan Amrit which was abolished by Guru Gobind Singh. Can these Sampardhyas still claim to have concentration of the same Guru Granth Sahib ?.

Show me where i have used aad guroo durbar?.. i refer always our granth to siri guroo granth sahib... yes i refer dasam guroo durbar or dasam dii bani or even dasam granth sahib....sarbloh guroo durbar...

Apologies, I stand corrected. But you still refer to Dasam Granth as 'Dasam Guru Durbar' and Sarbloh Granth as 'Sarbloh Guru Durbar'. It is all very well to say that you have faith in Sikh scriptures but the Sarbloh Granth has never been considered as Gurbani by anyone other than Nihangs. As you know even some Nirmalas do not believe it to be Gurbani.

So can you still consider the four Sampardayas as 'flavours' when they do not even agree on the basics ?.

I dont need no help from them. I have my views... My views will hurt who do slandering mahapursh, god, demi-gods, shaheeds and who chop off maharaj's ang (bani) just because they think they know better... so be it... i m not here to have gold medal

from such people..i m here to tell them to have faith in guroo maharaj bani and bachan...thats all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The reference to Lallesvari and Narsingha was because you seem to have brought into their sanatan Sikhi drivel.

GurFateh

Bikramjit

[Guest Akaal108]

vaheguroojikakhalsavaheguroojikifateh,

Are there now 5 Sampardhyas ?. I thought that Sanatan Sikhi only believes in 4 Sampardhyas as having a lineage going back to the Gurus ?. It is easy to explain your concept of different flavours by claiming that the concentration is still one. But this is not what Gurbani teaches.

yes i beleive 5th one is damdami takshal...takshal has always been an sampardama and Not Jatha....sanatan sikh has recently admitted that as well and soon they be updating their site... :e:

The above definations have remarkable similarity with the way that Hinduism has been divided.

Brahmin = Nirmala

Kshatriya = Nihang

Yogi = Udasi

Shudra = Sewapanthi

Guru Nanak in Asa Di // remarks on the different religious duties assigned to the Hindu divisions

The Yogis way is to seek enlightment

The Brahmin's to follow the Vedas

The Kshatris is heroism

The Shudra's service to others

But to the one who understands this matter

Knows that there is one and same way for all ( SGGS page 469 )

Do you really think that af

ter Guru Nanak's criticism of the different divisions of the Hindus that Guru Gobind Singh would then create the same divisions in Sikhi ?

Thats your way puttin at it, this is way different than caste distincation in hinduism....

for i know anyone can be nihang, nirmalla, seva-panthis, udhasi or takshali singh...you dont need born as certain caste...

Ok i would like to know your view though,

what do u suggest panth should be???

One beleif- standard sgpc rehat maryada??? none other???

Please let me know....if you were chosen an akaal takth leader..what would u do to create oneness??? Ban cannabis and meat eating... kick out udhasis, seeva panthis, nirmalla from the panth??? extradite them??

Tolerance is all very well but it is not just the UK Nangs that say that their Amrit is the only true Amrit but the Budha Dal claim this as well. As for Nirmalas their Amrit is also different and Udasis use Charan Amrit which was abolished by Guru Gobind Singh. Can these Sampardhyas still claim to have concentration of the same Guru Granth Sahib ?

Apologies, I stand corrected. But you still refer to Dasam Granth as 'Dasam Guru Durbar' and Sarbloh Granth as 'Sarbloh Guru Durbar'. It is all very well to say that you have faith in Sikh scriptures but the Sarbloh Granth has never been considered as Gurbani by anyone other than Nihangs. As you know even some Nirmalas do not believe it to be Gurbani.

So can you still consider the four Sampardayas as 'flavours' when they do not even agree on the basics ?.

No doubt amrit is one...amrit cant be invalid just because you dont have granths (sikh scriptures)... if

you are suggest or think that i beleive everything on those two sites.. then you are mistkan. My way is to have all positive things from jatha and sampardha and filter all negative things...

Udhasis take charan amrit because their gurdev siri chand maharaj ji started this...nothing wrong with that if you beleive and brought in udhasi family...and consider baba siri chand maharaj ji as your guroo son of guroo nanak sahib nirankar....after all we all pursuing that one anand da sagar of vaheguroo. why there should be lack of tolerance and acceptance?

Nirmalie took khanda da phaul amrit and i have made sure by reading the lives of baba harnam singh ji teacher of baba nand singh ji maharaj nanaksarwalie and studied the rara sahib sampardama. Their khanda da phaul amrit is no different than ours.

Your statement when you said sarbloh granth is only consider by nihangs only.. thats not entirely true. Damdami takshal considers it as gurbani.. one of my takshali premi mitr in toronto is workin on translations right now. Also there is a singh in england who is workin on translations in english as well. You can check it out if they consider sarbloh granth to be bani or not...by goin to local takshal gurdwara... or contact mehta .. Also there is a myth that sarbloh granth is all hidden. Nihangs and takshali are workin together in punjab to distribute free copies...you can get yours whenever you go to india.

I dont know about western countries... but in india they go along fine...idea is to go there phsyically... tryin living in different sampardama dharamsala...and find out if they slander gurbani or praise gurbani, living an simple life with peace of mind.. i havent been in all sampardham's yet but my freind have... i ll go next year...

In conclustion, live and let live as long they are respecing your beleifs and views.. you respect their's...and have some tolerance and acceptance... yesterday gabroo khalistan keep swearin on shiv ji maharaj for some reason when guroo maharaj prais

es them..... that itself shows how youths of today are fallin in the hands of ignorance and hatred without learning scriptures... they slandered indirectly vaheguroo when they slander gods, demi-gods, mahapursh!!!!!!!!!!!!!...

Slogans like hindu nouou chak deha angie and makin fun of hindu lords.. from some of the members...shows really how sikhi beautiful faith of tolerance and acceptance transforming into taliban regime for the youths...

[GABROO KHALISTAN DAH]

n30 lying is not a good haib

where have u sworn at shiv, and i ask u

what his shivas kingdom, u call him maharaaj?

[V]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

yesterday gabroo khalistan keep swearin on shiv ji maharaj for some reason when guroo

please provide link

maharaj praises them.....

Them? was shiva a plural amount of people

providing quotes on Guru JI praising the Hindu Gods would be appreciated

they slandered indirectly vaheguroo when they slander gods, demi-gods, mahapursh!!!!!!!!!!!!!...

So you consider all of these Krishna..Shiva Vishnu...

Ganesha..

as Mahapurshs...and INCARNATIONS OF GOD? .......and that they really are semi gods :@

respecting them is not bad..but theres really no point in calling them Mahapurash :T: :D or comparing them With Allmighty Waheguru..

is there

Slogans like hindu nouou chak deha angie and makin fun of hindu lords..

from some of the members...shows really how sikhi beautiful faith of tolerance and acceptance transforming into taliban regime for the youths...

elaborate please.............. :T:

otherwise i think its a good thing u take the Good things out of everything and filter out the "Bad" Ones

BHull CHukk maaf

[>Bikramjit Singh<]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

N30

Come on, I have yet to see them update their site and none of the Nangs like Narsingha or Lallesvari have admitted that the Taksal is the 5th Sampardhya. As far as I recall Narsingha was pretty vague about updating the sarbloh site with the admission. So let me see, does this now mean that the Nangs admit that their site was not entirely correct in the first instance ? I mean missing out one important Sampardhya is pretty sloppy work.

You asked what my view is how the Panth should be. Well a Sikh should be solely a Sikh and not a Taksali Sikh, a Nihang Sikh or a Nirmala Sikh. Perhaps you missed the import of the last line of the Gurbani quote and I will reproduce it here for you

The Yogis way is to seek enlightment

The Brahmin's to follow the Vedas

The Kshatris is heroism

The Shudra's service to others

But to the one who understands this matter

Knows that there is one and same way for all ( SGGS page 469 )

Does this not contradict your many 'flavours' of Sikhi viewpoint ?. If there is only one way to liberation then there can be no such thing as a Nihang, a Nirmala or a Udasi Sikh ?

You misunderstood this verse, it is not solely about the caste system but it criticises the belief that it is possible to have different ways to reach liberation. Just as the Guru has said that it is wrong to assume that following the Yogi way ( ie asceticism ) will give you liberation so it follows that being an Udasi and having an Udasi lifestyle will not bring you liberation.

From the Sikhawareness site I assumed that you would have re

ad the sarbloh granth thread. I was referring to to the fact that the Sarbloh Granth was a secret text and only available with the Nihangs. If the Taksal NOW accepts the Sarbloh Granth then for over 100 years after the creation of the Khalsa it had not been available to the Sikhs. The Nihangs could only have accepted it 100 years ago and the Taksal much later than that as it has not been referred to by any writer both Sikh or non-Sikh until about 120 years ago.

Udhasis take charan amrit because their gurdev siri chand maharaj ji started this...nothing wrong with that if you beleive and brought in udhasi family...and consider baba siri chand maharaj ji as your guroo son of guroo nanak sahib nirankar....after all we all pursuing that one anand da sagar of vaheguroo. why there should be lack of tolerance and acceptance?

So it is possible to have a Guru other than Gur Nanak- Guru Gobind Singh and still be a Sikh !. So are Radha Swamis Sikhs ?, how about those 'sikhs' who follow Ashutosh or Baniarawala are they also Sikhs ?. You are creating quite a precedent with your views.

Nirmalie took khanda da phaul amrit and i have made sure by reading the lives of baba harnam singh ji teacher of baba nand singh ji maharaj nanaksarwalie and studied the rara sahib sampardama. Their khanda da phaul amrit is no different than ours.

It is not solely the Amrit but also the beliefs that differ. Would you believe that some Nirmalas who throughout their history have been heavily

influenced by Hinduism believe that Guru Nanak was an Avatar of Vishnu ?. Or that Guru Granth Sahib is just the vedas translated into a language understood by the common people ?.

Btw there seems to some person going around trying to convince people that all Sikh Sants starting from Sant Attar Singh Ji have been influenced by Nirmalas and their beliefs. The sole basis for this is that during their childhood they were sent to study Gurbani at Nirmala Deras. Since in Punjab at that time teaching the Guru Granth Sahib was the sole preserve of the Gyanis, the Nirmalas and the Udasi deras then it is not inconceivble that these Sants went for their early education to one of these establishments.

GurFateh

Bikramjit

[bravekhalsa]

yesterday gabroo khalistan keep swearin on shiv ji maharaj for some reason when guroo maharaj praises them..... that itself shows how youths of today are fallin in the hands of ignorance and hatred without learning scriptures... they slandered indirectly vaheguroo when they slander gods, demi-gods, mahapursh!!!!!!!!!!!!!...

are you out of ur mind???? where did Guroo sahib praise shiv jee???? and other hindu devi and devtay???

goNf ]

BYrau BUq sIqlw DwvY ]

Kr bwhnu auhu Cwru aufwvY ]1]

hau qau eyku rmeIAw lYhau ]

Awn dyv bdlwvin dYhau ]1] rhwau ]

isv isv krqy jo nru iDAwvY ]

brd cFy faurU FmkwvY ]2]

mhw mweI kI pUjw krY ]

nr sY nwir hoie AauqrY ]3]

qU khIAq hI Awid BvwnI ]

mukiq kI brIAw khw CpwnI ]4]

gurmiq rwm nwm ghu mIqw ]

pRxvY nwmw ieau khY gIqw ]5]2]6]

go(n)add ||

bhairo bhooth seethalaa dhhaavai ||

khar baahan ouhu shhaar ouddaavai ||1||

ho tho eaek rameeaa laiho ||

aan dhaev badhalaavan dhaiho ||1|| rehaao ||

siv siv karathae jo nar dhhiaavai ||

baradh chadtae ddouroo dtamakaavai ||2||

mehaa maaee kee poojaa karai ||

nar sai naar hoe aoutharai ||3||

t

hoo keheeath hee aadh bhavaanee ||

mukath kee bareeaa kehaa shhapaanee ||4||

guramath raam naam gahu meethaa ||

pranavai naamaa eio kehai geethaa ||5||2||6||

Gond:

One who chases after the god Bhairau, evil spirits and the goddess of smallpox,

is riding on a donkey, kicking up the dust. ||1||

I take only the Name of the One Lord.

I have given away all other gods in exchange for Him. ||1||Pause||

That man who chants ""Shiva, Shiva"", and meditates on him,

is riding on a bull, shaking a tambourine. ||2||

One who worships the Great Goddess Maya

will be reincarnated as a woman, and not a man. ||3||

You are called the Primal Goddess.

At the time of liberation, where will you hide then? ||4||

Follow the Guru's Teachings, and hold tight to the Lord's Name, O friend.

Thus prays Naam Dayv, and so says the Gita as well. ||5||2||6||

[Gupt daasan daas]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

ram rheem puran kuran, inek kahian na matek na manyao.

guru gobind singh je

This clearly states that guru je did not believe in any other religion

Now for this

deh shiva bar mohe ihai

The shiva in this does not mean the hindu god shiva, but instead making a refrence to god

Just as in gurbani when ram is mentioned, in most cases that ram means god also. Whenever it praises the names ram or shiva, its not talkin about the hindu gods, but instead antarjami waheguru. You have to get santhia to learn all the gurbanis meanings properly. But one shouldnt swear at anybodys god, let them do what they wish. But i never seen gabroo khalistan da swear at anybodys god

bhul chuk maf

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[GABROO KHALISTAN DAH]

i have not diss'd ne ones gods

i have asked mr. N30 to provide links

i have changed since my foolish hating days