To N30 Singh

[Guest mehtab]

veer khalistani, i think its deh siva and not deh shiva

plzz correct me if i m wrong

[Akaali]

yesterday gabroo khalistan keep swearin on shiv ji maharaj for some reason when guroo maharaj praises them..... that itself shows how youths of today are fallin in the hands of ignorance and hatred without learning scriptures... they slandered indirectly vaheguroo when they slander gods, demi-gods, mahapursh!!!!!!!!!!!!!...

I don't wanna be getting into any arguments, etc, but this hit me, because its wrong..

Guru Nanak Dev ji already said that these Gods directed ppl towards themselves instead of Waheguru ji, and worshipping these Gods is useless, pointless, they were created by Waheguru ji, and they started to preach their own message, and brought in devotees for themselves, by showing off their spiritual powers. Read 'bachitar natak' guru maharaj already dictates it in bani.

Here are some quotes from SGGS about Gods:

kehaa bhaeiaa nar dhaevaa dhhokhae kiaa jal boriou giaathaa ||1||

What good does it do if a man burns incense before his gods? What good does it do to dip one's body in water? ||1||

saadhhik sidhh suradhaev manukhaa bin saadhhoo sabh dhhrohan dhhrohae ||1|| rehaao ||

the strivers, the Siddhas, the demi-gods, angels and mortals. All, except the Saadhus, are deceived by her(maya's) deception. ||1||Pause||

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Three hundred thirty million gods are Your servants. You bestow wealth, and the supernatural powers of the Siddhas; You are the Support of the breath of life.

I wouldn't even pay respect to them, because whoever doesn't get someone on the path to serve the almightly is a useless soul..

My two cents!

[Gupt daasan daas]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

and bachitter natak clearly states that these people started thyre own paths, and made people worship not good stuff, as we should worship waheguru. Then waheguru sent guru maharaj, to set this world straight.

bhul chuk maf

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[Guest Akaal108]

Ok so are you guys suggesting that its ok to diss shiva???

Here is the praise and on the same token guroo ji tellin people not to worship them:

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/results.asp?w...ransliteration=

Also dont forget to check out this.. its regarding the orgin of "Aad Chand"

http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...opic.ppa?t=2116

[GABROO KHALISTAN DAH]

n30 how smart are u

every1 i mean every FUGGIN one has asked U, where has ne one dissed shiva!

and u call him maharaaj what is his kingdom?

and DON"T IGNORE THIS QUESTIONING LIKE B4

[Guest Akaal108]

don't trust from sikhawarness, site run by nungaye garaath less nangs

Are you calling me nang... because one of few people who run that site is me...

i would like to let you know.. i m wearing clothes..and i m not nang...let me see there are two kaurs who run that site ... are you callin them that word too????

You seriously lack decency to talk like gursikhs or act like gursikhs... do you treate your mother and sisters like that too???

Admin note: It is our request to all the readers of this broad to please stay out of this discussion unless you have to submit your views about either N30 Singh or Bikramjeet Singh. If you have something else to discuss then simply start a new thread. And please DO NOT post messages like "world war 3 is starting!" if you do not want such discussions to take place then simply DON'T open this thread. We want to give both N30 and Bikramjeet free chance to represent their views so don't spoil it for either of them.

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

Ok, here is the truth (hehehe...usually someone says this before lying... ).

Guru Gobind Singh had ALL sampardayas, jathas, committes, cults, deras, castes and gangs in Bisakhi 1699. He raised is sword and asked for a head. Panj Pyare got up and took amrit. THEN, the Guru Sahib took amrit from them. THEY are the ONLY group to whom Guru Gobind Singh Sahib belonged to. THEY are the only one upon whose blessing is truly bestowed. THEY are the ones so highly praised in the Sarbloh Granth.

Where are praises heaped on Nihungs, Nirmalae, AKJ, Damdami Taksal, Nanaksar, Rara Sahib? Did Guru Sahib deem them worthy of praise? NO. ONLY the Khalsa Panth is recognized by the Guru Sahib. So as far as sampardyas/groups/jathas/organizations are concerned...to those who hold the Amrit of the Panj Pyare the key to salvation, to those who follow the Rehat of the Panj Pyare, to those who recognize the Guru Granth Sahib as the Eternal Guru, and do not make their own little rites and rituals but are complete members of the Khalsa Panth...they have the blessings of the Guru Sahiban. To those who think they are higher than the Rehat, to those who think they know better than the Rehat and to those who do things against the Rehat...remember, Guru Sahib will not care if you carry a 20 foot Khanda...you'll get your dues upstairs.

This post was not meant to target any group or organization. Forgive the harsh words, but this giving status to little groups within the Sikh Panth under the name of "sampardyas" is really

not the direction to be looking at.

[Guest Akaal108]

You asked what my view is how the Panth should be. Well a Sikh should be solely a Sikh and not a Taksali Sikh, a Nihang Sikh or a Nirmala Sikh. Perhaps you missed the import of the last line of the Gurbani quote and I will reproduce it here for you

The Yogis way is to seek enlightment

The Brahmin's to follow the Vedas

The Kshatris is heroism

The Shudra's service to others

But to the one who understands this matter

Knows that there is one and same way for all ( SGGS page 469 )

Does this not contradict your many 'flavours' of Sikhi viewpoint ?. If there is only one way to liberation then there can be no such thing as a Nihang, a Nirmala or a Udasi Sikh ?

You misunderstood this verse, it is not solely about the caste system but it criticises the belief that it is possible to have different ways to reach liberation. Just as the Guru has said that it is wrong to assume that following the Yogi way ( ie asceticism ) will give you liberation so it follows that being an Udasi and having an Udasi lifestyle will not bring you liberation.

You mis-understood me entirely on this.. I ll try to explain it better..

Assume nirmale, nihang, udasi an different schools offering same course to its students .. course is how to liberate yourself through sggs with god . Allthough they offer same course, their principles or beleif's..ie- uniform, appearance etc are different...m

ain core principle is same which is (Naam , Dhaan, Ishnan). Now we cant have monaply over sggs ji and say you cant read and contemplate with sggs ji because you are not a sikh. Because Siri guroo granth sahib ji is a sanjha updesh to everyone. There is a direct tuk in gurbani dont know which page by guroo nanak sahib nirankar that updesh is sanjha given to everyone .i heard in the tape... i ll search for the page number and i ll post it up later on.. but i m sure you guys heard that tuk somewhere in sggs ji.

That above verse you showed me and it make sense.. but udhasis, nirmallai and nihangs contemplate with sggs ji so that above tuk does not apply to them. Have you been to udhasi dera? They do non-stop recitation of siri guroo granth sahib ji. There is been lot of udhasi mahapursh who liberated their students with that same jot through sggs ji... I agree khanda da phaul da amrit has easier way of gettin liberated with guroo's because of its simplicity that but doesnt mean charan becomes totally invalid... yes sure people will go through dificulties to liberate through charan amrit because of this kalyuga... kalyuga was in guroo's time too yet as gurbani says:

jaehaa beeo thaehaa fal paayaa ||a||

As someone sows, so he reaps.Bhai Gurdaas Ji

Vaars Bhai Gurdaas

1

It all depends on karamic influence on one's shuksham sirara (atma). I wont not even for one second say.. oh he is udhasi he wont get liberated even though they beleive in sggs ji and beleive in charan amrit.

Baba Farid and Bhagat kabir got liberated through charan amrit too.

So it is possible to have a Guru other than Gur Nanak- Guru Gobind Singh and still be a Sikh !. So are Radha Swamis Sikhs ?, how about those 'sikhs' who follow Ashutosh or Baniarawala are they also Si

khs ?. You are creating quite a precedent with your views.

Its very insulting to link udhasi with radhaswomis and ashutoush, baniarawala because udhasi do beleive in sggs ji yet for some reason they dont beleive in gristhi jeevan and like to isiolate themselves in jungles, just like how baba siri chand maharaj ji did... but still baba siri chand maharaj was blessed by guroo's after guroo nanak sahib nirankar

Baba Farid has his gurdev / murshad to liberate him by charan amrit and bhagat kabir has his guroo/murshad ramanand to liberate him by having charan amrit.. If you are saying havin charan amrit is a sin to perform its wrong.....though its discouraged in sikhi because khanda da amrit replaced it but its not sin to have charan amrit and be a udhasi.. you can still be a sikh.. as you know baba fareed, bhagat kabir was a sikh..

Its kinda like many muslims thinks sufis are mis-leaded but they still consider them as muslim because of their un-condtional love towards allah.. how they express love towards allah by singing.. even though music is forbidden in islam... . And as i provided you the link by your favourite sgpc admitting udhasi are still sikhs....

It is not solely the Amrit but also the beliefs that differ. Would you believe that some Nirmalas who throughout their history have been heavily influenced by Hinduism believe that Guru Nanak was an Avatar of Vishnu ?. Or that Guru Granth Sahib is just the vedas translated into a language understood by the common people ?.

Btw there seems to some person going around trying to convince people that all Sikh Sants starting from Sant Attar Singh Ji have been influenced by Nirmalas and their beliefs. The sole basis for this is that during their childhood they were sent to st

udy Gurbani at Nirmala Deras. Since in Punjab at that time teaching the Guru Granth Sahib was the sole preserve of the Gyanis, the Nirmalas and the Udasi deras then it is not inconceivble that these Sants went for their early education to one of these establishments.

I have not even once heard if they beleive guroo nanak was an avatar of vishnu.. that sound an rss proganda to me rather an nirmale saying..... Sant baba nand singh ji maharaj whose murshad was baba harnam singh bucholowalie was a nirmale sant....( http://www.angelfire.com/in/sidhu/ananddham.html ) They always beleive that guroo nanak sahib nirankar was pure guroo avatar..did u know the orginal picture of guroo nanak sahib ji he has black padan on the foot.. that indicates guroo nanak sahib nirankar was guroo avatar which is (nargun) saroop of god himself in sargun form.

Here is picture of guroo nanak sahib nirankar- http://groups.msn.com/nanaksar/_homepage.m...?pgmarket=en-us .. If you see carefully you will see an black mark on the foot....

I dont know about sant attar singh ji maharaj but i know rara sahib and hoti mardan are sub-groups within Nirmala samparda.. Here is the spirtual genelogy of rara sahib-

http://www.jargsahib.com/taksalofrarasahib.html

http://www.rarasahib.com/sg.htm

source book: Giani Balwant Singh ji Kotta Guru 'Sri Nirmal Panth Bodh'

Mahant Bishan Singh ji 'Amrit Bachan te Sat Darshan'

Nirmalee's fist learn sanskrit, arabic, barj, farsi and study hindu and islamic literatures before even thinkin about studyin sikh scriptures...

The

re are couple of advantages in this kinda learning technique..

First- You can beat your enemy with their own tool

Second- to have better understanding of sikh scriptures by learning sanskrit, arabic, farsi and barj off course...

Third- You can do enuf missionary work in india.....providing sikh scriptures in their languages.. isnt that sweet??? imagine...translating sggs ji in 100 different languages and spread the updesh of our guroo maharaj... there are already sggs in spanish and french.. translated by our 3ho sikhs.. amazing seeva indeed!!!!!!!!!!

Also if you study the lives of takshal mahapursh's or any other mahapursh's you will come to know they have learnt more than one languages as our guroo's did.....So all you guys who become frustrated and worried about beating rss propaganda.. this is the way.. beating them with their own tools...

Thats it from me tonight.. have a good knight everyone.

Also note: Please expect delays of replyin on this thread from me tom. I m goin to work tom...today i had a flu soo i stayed home all day.. thats why i was able to contribute my decent time on this... no doubt i ll reply tom too.. but expect some delays

akaaaaaaaaaaal hee akaaaaaaal

anand hii anand...

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

"I agree khanda da phaul da amrit has easier way of gettin liberated with guroo's because of its simplicity that but doesnt mean charan becomes totally invalid... yes sure people will go through dificulties to liberate through charan amrit because of this kalyuga... "

Charan Amrit was administered by the Guru Sahiban up until the time of Guru Gobind Singh Sahib. Charan Amrit involves washing the feet of the Guru to administer the Amrit to the disciples.

Who in any of the groups you have mentioned have Charan equal to Guru Nanak Sahib? Is there one who dares to claim himself/herself qualified as the Gurus to administer Charan Amrit? What one individual has been given such power that they alone can do what takes 5 Sikhs to do?

And how many of the pooran Sikhs you have mentioned have documented proof that they took Charan Amrit and not Khandae Battae Da Amrit?

Sorry Singh Sahib, these posts are not meant to be personal attacks or vengeful (sorry if they seem that way).

[Guest learner singh]

I want to know what Bikramjit singh thinks of this article?

RELIGIOUS CO-EXISTENCE AND SIKHISM

Ms. Meena Sawhney

Religious Co-existence describes a situation in which various religious traditions and belief systems live side-by-side and in which none of them holds a privileged status. Religious Co-existence in the main, refers to, inter-religious relations. In this matter of inter-religious relations only a balanced, positive and tolerant

understanding of the diverse religious traditions can lead to peace and fellowship.

Since time immemorial the religious traditions have emerged and grown and existed in diverse ways. But at that time society was primarily isolationist and exclusivist. The life of a community was mostly confined to the tribe, race or nation. Interdependence and interpenetration was almost non-existent. Intolerance and

proselytization were the ways of dealing with the foreigners. However, now the discoveries of science and technology have turned the whole world into a global village. Means of transport and communication have dissolved the distance existing formerly between communities, nations and ideologies. The physical closeness has greatly facilitated interdependence and interpenetration between the communities. Isolationist and exclusivist communities and ideologies are no longer relevant. The great religious traditions of mankind are face to face with each other, not to convert or destroy each other, but to devise ways and means of greater co-operation and fellowship.

Emphasizing the need for co-existence and co-operation among the communities and nations in the present-day

world, Radhakrishnan writes[1]:

"Belief in co-existence is not the outcome of expediency or of weakness. It is the only way to rid the world of exclusiveness, intolerance and misunderstanding. There are no more closed societies. The order we seek is not either national or continental. It is neither eastern nor western. It is universal. We must develop a sense of perspective and realize that our nation is one of many, and each makes a specific contribution to the richness and variety of the world. Humanity is not this race or that nation, but the whole of mankind which is getting together, we hope, for purpose of cooperation."

No doubt, the crying need of the hour is one of co-operation and harmony. The mutual understanding among the followers of different faiths. Professor Arnold Toynbee has visualised a special role for Sikhism in the growing interaction and interpretation among the religious traditions of the world. He says[2]:

"Mankind's religious future may be obscure, yet one thing can be foreseen: the living higher religions are going to influence each other more than ever before, in these days of increasing communication, between all parts of the world and all branches of human race. In this coming religious debate, the Sikh religion and its scriptures, the Adi Granth, will have something of special value to say to the rest of the world."

The Sikh Gurus laid stress on co-operation and harmony among different communities. Sikhism is dedicated to uphold the unity of society. The Sikh religion is universal in its orientation. It is not bound by geographical, cultural and theoretical barriers. TRUTH, COMPASSION, TOLERANCE, FORGIVENESS, CO-OPERATION and LOVE are the hallmarks of Sikh religion. It is the source of humanity's finest principles, qualities, virtues and values. Awareness of these values breaks down all barriers between people, and shows that all people are members of one family. Trilochan Singh writes[3]:

"Guru Nanak awakened the world over t

he spirit of co-operation and confidence in goodwill, in justice, in goodness, in helping downtrodden, and the lowly, in compassion for the weak and the outcaste, in human dignity and the power of love and truth. This is what the world needs. This is the only solution to the present

world crisis."

This shows that Sikhism believes in co-existence.

According to the Sikh philosophy no single path or door has the monopoly of access to the ultimate Reality. No single system or theory can be all embracing panacea for all people in all times in all countries. Any absolutist claim of this nature is foreign to the spirit of Sikhism. Trilochan Singh, with religiously diverse

perspective in mind emphasizes,[4]

"No religion can survive in isolation. It is possible to understand other people only after understanding their faiths and beliefs and showing what is moral and good in their life. No religious culture can progress and prosper unless it imbibes some noble qualities of other faiths. No religion today operates in its pure original form. There is much we need to learn about the lost glory of our own religion."

The Sikh Gurus recognized and accepted the plurality of existing religions of the world. They recognized the basic truth of all religions. The Sikh religion is a staunch believer in religious freedom and religious diversity. The writings of Guru Nanak prefers a positive attitude towards religious diversity. He shows his respect for the best in all religions. In the "Japuji" which is the gist of Guru Granth Sahib, Guru Nanak describes the multiplicity of religious beliefs and practices:

Innumerable are the prayer-chants;

Innumerable the forms of devotion.

Innumerable are the forms of worship;

Innumerable the modes of doing penace.

Innumerable are those with vows of silence

in unbroken contemplation.

How may I give an idea of Divine might?

All thou willst is good, thou Formless one !

Immutable, ever perfect art thou.[5]

The Sikh Gurus were enlightened and awakened enough to realize that it was possible to have many different approaches or paths to a better understanding of ultimate Divine reality, that is, to have different religions whose approaches though generally considered mutually exclusive, in essence had much in common. All the scriptures and religious books are different expositions of the same eternal Truth. The same absolute power is being worshipped at all the different places of worship in diverse forms of worship. Guru Gobind Singh emphasizes that all the men, the world over, whether they are Arabs or French, Gorkhas, Tibetans, Chinese or Dravidians from Talangana, they all bow to Him ultimately, and worship Him, though may be following different paths lead to the same pinnacle. He sees one common factor in all these various ways of worship, and this common factor is obedience to His Will and His ultimate service.[6]

Guru Gobind Singh further declared that:

"There is no difference between a temple and a mosque, nor between the prayer of a Hindu or a Muslim. Though differences seem to mark and distinguish, all men are in reality the same. The monastry and mosque, worship and 'namaz' are the same, there is among all humanity, a striking unity in diversity." [7]

According to the Sikh Gurus, ultimate aim of religion is to attune the individual will to the Will of the Supreme Reality, and until that is achieved mechanical performance of worship, rites and ceremonies are of no avail. The attuning of the individual will should also result in righteous deeds:

One realizing God in this life, shall there too have realization.

All other dispute of Hindu or Muslim is false.

All at the Divine Portal shall undergo reckoning

None without good deeds liberation shall find.[8]

The Sikh Gurus did not condemn either Hinduism or Islam or their institutions in their original or pure form. What Sikh Gurus denounced was the corrupt and evil practices whi

ch had prevailed in their time. There is truth in all the Vedas, and so they may not be scrapped out; this is the beautiful aspect of Sikhism, to appreciate all that is available in any culture. Guru Nanak says:

Each of the four Vedas have expressed same truth.

Those studying and expounding them realize

What is appropriate action from what is inappropriate." [9]

In speaks volumes of the profundity of spiritual insight of Guru Nanak. Among all the apostles, it is he alone, who expresses so pointedly the close resemblance between the message of the Veda and the message of the Quran. This brings about a complete revolution in the mutual relations of the Hindus and Muslims. There is nothing in the Sikh Gurus' hymns which offends against the Hindu sentiments, and there is nothing in the Guru Granth Sahib which is repulsive to a Muslim. In Gurbani it is explained as below:

Some utter His name as Rama, others as Khuda;

Some serve the Lord of the universe, others Allah;

Gracious Lord Almighty, compassionate show Thy Grace.

Some bathe at Hindu holy spots, others perform Haj;

Some prefer 'puja', others bow their heads in 'namaz'.

Some study Vedas, others the Quran;

Some wear blue, others white.

Some are called Muhammadans, others Hindus

Some seek 'bihisht' others 'swarga'

Saith Nanak: whoever the Divine Will realizes,

The Lord's mystery has understood.[10]

The Sikh Gurus have emphatically maintained that it is the same reality that manifests in various forms. Diversity to the Sikh Gurus is the irrefutable proof of underlying unity. Guru Nanak says that the true preceptor is one who recognizes this underlying unity and aims at uniting all:

Saith Nanak: The true Preceptor is one,

By whom all in Union are bound.[11]

The Sikh Gurus recognized various avenues to Divinity. There are different paths to the mansion of truth, but the goal is practically the same, we must re

spect the religions of our neighbours, because all human beings are the creation of the Almighty. Each faith is born in a particular environment. Basically, all religions have many fundamentals in common, and all of them lay stress on a truthful and honest living. We therefore can learn from each religion. Other religions help us gain deeper understanding of our own faith.

The Sikhs believe in the co-existence of all religions and do not claim that theirs is the only way. Exclusivism and forcible conversion from one faith to another is totally foreign to the spirit of Sikhism.

NOTES & REFERENCES

[1] Radhakrishnan, S. "Religion in A Changing World"

[2] Trilochan Singh & Others, "Sacred Writings of the Sikhs", Foreword by A. Toynbee

[3] Trilochan Singh, "True Humanism of Guru Nanak"

[4] Trilochan Singh, "Responsibility of the Sikh Youth"

[5] Guru Granth Sahib, Jap, M.1. pp.3-4

[6] Guru Gobind Singh, Dasam Granth, Akal Ustat. 1:S:255

[7] Guru Gobind Singh, Dasam Granth, Akal Ustat

[8] Guru Granth Sahib, Ramkali, M.1 p.952.

[9] Guru Granth Sahib, Asa, M.1, p.470

[10] Guru Granth Sahib, Ramkali, M.5.p.885.

[11] Guru Granth Sahib, Sri raga, M.1, p.72.