Women getting Amrit

[Singh 5]

Let's not confuse ourselves. Things are simpler than they seem. If someone is looking for details of X Kaur receiving amrit dee daat then that information hasn't been found yet. Then again, there is no real description of how anyone in Guru Sahib's time received amrit. In a book on Prem Sumarag Granth by Historian Randhir Singh, he writes that perhaps things like this were kept secret at that time for some uknown reasons.

At any rate, there are a number of Sikh women named "Kaur" who are found in Guru Gobind Singh jee's time such as Bibi Deep Kaur, Bibi Anoop Kaur, Bibi Harsharan Kaur, etc.

Both Bhai Chaupa Singh rehitnama and Prem Sumarag, considered two of the older rehitnamas, both say more than once that a woman should be given "Khanday kee paahul". Neither mentions anything about kirpaan daa amrit. I'd actually be interested to see a reference to kirpaan amrit.

The concept of kirpaan amrit is based on the ridiculous concept that Khanda is a "male word" and Kirpaan is a "female word" and thus, a kirpaan should be used for females. By this logic, someone who takes kirpaan amrit can be a Khalsee but not a Khalsa.

On a side note, I really am confused what the goal of these Sanaatan Sikhs is. What are they trying to prove by making ridiculous, completely refutable statements. What's their motivation? They badly lost the AKJ debate (now on the Sikhawareness archives) and it's clear they cannot back up their statements with proof.

[serenity]

Oh yey! someone who knows what they're talking about! B)

Whats prem sumarag?

umm since Bhai chaupa Singh said some stuff I don't agree with, I don't know if I want to believe in his rehitnama, but prem sumarag sounds promising! Can you please elaborate what it is and who wrote because I never heard of it!

[serenity]

Also one other thing, I think there are some ladies connected with Guru Ji with the name Kaur in their name, and just as some hindu raja hill chiefs used to have the name singh (cause it was royalty) I think some ladies must have had the name Kaur because they were actual aristocracy or princesses! Just a note.

[Singh 5]

I don't think Kaur was a very common last name or name in those times among any but Sikhs. Just the sheer number of Kaurs related to Guru Gobind Singh jee is proof enough that Sikh women did indeed take the name "Kaur".

Prem Sumarag's author is not known, but it is recognised as being one of the older rehitnamas.

When looking at rehitnamas, we can't take them at face value. We can use them to confirm some of our beliefs, but not to take them 100% as truth. Like right now we're using rehitnamas to see whether women received Khanday Kee Paahul or kirpaan. By examining the rehitnamas, we find references to women needing to receive khanday kee paahul but nothing about kirpaan.

Here's a quote from Prem Sumaarag about giving women Khanday Kee Paahul, "Fayr, Sikh kareeai, jougat naal paahul khandai kee deejeeai. Ar Ardaas kareeai: "Jee! Eh jee man bach karam kar Khalsay kaa jama pehar kay SikhNee hoee hai. Khushee karho! Jo Sree Akaal Purakh apnay marag kaa rang bakhshay. Anand saath rahai"

Meaning, "Then, make her a Sikh, by giving her Khanday Kee Paahul with the proper method. Then do ardaas" "Lord! This one has by word and action taken on the form of a Khalsa and become your Sikhnee (female Sikh). Be pleased! May Akaal Purakh give her the divine colours of his path. May she live in bliss."

Clearly women received Khanday Kee Paahul.

Here's what I have previously posted about Chaupa Singh Rehitnama:

The Chaupa Singh

rehitnama is interesting on different levels. Chaupa Singh was a Chhiber Brahmin and sometimes he seems to let a bit of a Brahmin bias enter into his work. At other times he is completely egalitarian and condemns caste in all forms. "Naa daekhai Khatree, naa daekhai Shood ki Vaish hai. Sikh Guru kaa daekhai, jaat barn naa daekhai" meaning "One should not look at whether someone is Khatri or Shudra or Vaish. One should look whether someone is a Sikh, one should not look at caste or clan." (77) All my references on this rehitnama come from the Padam book.

The Chaupa Singh rehitnama also contains a number of internal contradictions which indicate that it has been tampered with. One very clear case is the situaton of "saluting the sun". "Guru kaa Sikh praatay outh kay sooraj noo(n) namastay aakh kay, Sikhaa(n) noo Vahiguru Jee kee Fateh bulai" (91) meaning, when a Sikh rises in the morning, he should say "namastay" to the Sun and then Fateh to the Singhs. That's problematic on a number of fronts, seeing as how Sikhs don't revere the sun and the sun hasn't risen when a Sikh gets up (last part of night ie. amrit vela). But the rehitnama later contradicts itself: "Jo sooraj dayvtay noo namaskaar karay, so Tankhaiyaa" (105), meaning, "One who salutes/does namaskaar to the sun is a Tankhaiyaa".

And so I come to the issue of women in the Chaupa Singh rehitnama. This again is a very confused issue. I havn't seen the manuscript you quote which says not to give Paahul to women, but the common Chaupa Singh rehitnama says the following: "Jo Sikh, SikhNee noo(n) khanday dee paahul naa dayvay, so Tankhaiyaa" (105) meaning, "that Sikh who does not give khanday kee paahul to a female-Sikh, is a Tankhaiyaa".

Even in regards to reading Sree Guru Granth Sahib, your references are correct, but the same rehitnama then goes on to say, "Guru kee SikhNee Granth Sahib pothee paRn sikhay..." (107) meaning a female-Sikh should learn how to read Sree Guru Granth Sahib.

Overall, we can learn interest

ing things from rehitnamas, but we can't consider them to be the authority on rehit. Rehit has been passed down amongst Gursikhs and it's hard to find but it still exists. Only that rehit is authentic which can pass the test of GurbaaNee.

[Guest balwinderkaur]

Plus doesn't Bhai Chaupa Singh say women can't read from Sri guru Granth Sahib Ji in a congregation and at the time of her menses, women can't cook or serve langar?

I didnt wanna take part in this controversial topic but reading this has made my ears BURN. This idea that women cant do paath or sevaa during their period is utter NONSENSE dear serenity bhainjee...what about amrithdhari ladies then huh?? If that was the case all amritdhari ladies who havent reached menopause will be breaking their rehat few days/a week every month eh by not doing nitnem or sevaa simply cuz no woman is allowed to do paath or seva during period. Dear serenity bhainjee, look NOWHERE else. Gurujee has refuted these claims in ASA DI VAAR. Read the whole asa di vaar, listen to it and understand it. It has so many tuks refuting such claims. One tuk refuting this claim : JIO JORUU SIRNAAVN

EE AAVAI VAARO VAAR JHOOTHAY JHOOTHA MUKH VASAI NIT NIT HOVAI KHUAR. SOOCHAY EH NAA AAKHEEYAI BEHAN JEY PINDAA DHOEY SOOCHAY SAYEE NAANKA JIN MANN VASSYA SOEY. (Find translation at sikhitothemax).

[moorakh]

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

Regarding Chaupa Singh - a post taken from tapoban.org... you can get more details about similar questions at http://www.tapoban.org/phorum/read.ppa?f=1...6411#reply_6495

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Author: Balpreet Singh

Date: 11-10-03 13:49

The Chaupa Singh rehitnama is interesting on different levels. Chaupa Singh was a Chhiber Brahmin and sometimes he seems to let a bit of a Brahmin bias enter into his work. At other times he is completely egalitarian and condemns caste in all forms. "Naa daekhai Khatree, naa daekhai Shood ki Vaish hai. Sikh Guru kaa daekhai, jaat barn naa daekhai" meaning "One should not look at whether someone is Khatri or Shudra or Vaish. One should look whether someone is a Sikh, one should not look at caste or clan." (77) All my references on this rehitnama come from the Padam book.

The Chaupa Singh rehitnama also contains a number of internal contradictions which indicate that it has been tampered with. One very clear case is the situaton of "saluting the sun". "Guru kaa Sikh praatay outh kay sooraj noo(n) namastay aakh kay, Sikhaa(n) noo Vahiguru Jee kee Fateh bulai" (91) meaning, when a Sikh rises in the morning, he should say "namastay" to the Sun and then Fateh to the Singhs. That's problematic on a number of fronts, seeing as how Sikhs don't revere the sun and the sun hasn't risen when a Sikh gets up (last part of night ie. amrit vel

a). But the rehitnama later contradicts itself: "Jo sooraj dayvtay noo namaskaar karay, so Tankhaiyaa" (105), meaning, "One who salutes/does namaskaar to the sun is a Tankhaiyaa".

And so I come to the issue of women in the Chaupa Singh rehitnama. This again is a very confused issue. I havn't seen the manuscript you quote which says not to give Paahul to women, but the common Chaupa Singh rehitnama says the following: "Jo Sikh, SikhNee noo(n) khanday dee paahul naa dayvay, so Tankhaiyaa" (105) meaning, "that Sikh who does not give khanday kee paahul to a female-Sikh, is a Tankhaiyaa".

Even in regards to reading Sree Guru Granth Sahib, your references are correct, but the same rehitnama then goes on to say, "Guru kee SikhNee Granth Sahib pothee paRn sikhay..." (107) meaning a female-Sikh should learn how to read Sree Guru Granth Sahib.

Overall, we can learn interesting things from rehitnamas, but we can't consider them to be the authority on rehit. Rehit has been passed down amongst Gursikhs and it's hard to find but it still exists. Only that rehit is authentic which can pass the test of GurbaaNee.

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Now my views... Few days back there was another post on piazz for sikhs and a hukamnama by baba banda singh bahadur was provided... What i believe is that whatever any sikh has said... it shouldn't be accepted blindly... as sikhs are not gurus... only guru sahib's gurbani is accepted without any question... rest everything is tested on basis of gurmat whether it suits gurbani or not... We shouldn't go deep into all these arguements as arguements leads us no where... We shouldn't think this and that... it reminds me a famous quote by bhai veer singh ji sent to me by a friend

socha to bachya karo

bas naam yadd rahe-----bhai vir singh

Now about Amrit thing for women... Well anywhere where it is written about Amrit... its written khande ki pahul (check the hukamnaame by guru sahib there is nothing wr

itten about kirpan da Amrit)... about dastaar... whereever it is written about dastaar it is written for sikhs... if it was only for men, then somewhere a gender would have been specified... In gurbani no where anything is written for a particular gender... it is written for a human... whereever gender is used in gurbani is to differentiate GOD and Human Soul... and in that aspect every human soul is treated as female where GOD is treated as male... So what i think is that there is no point argueing on these things... ofcourse discussion is good thing to learn... but when it is getting to an arguement it shall be avoided... rest all sangat is much more knowledgable... so can decide what is the best... But i will like to request sangat to remember this statement by bhai veer singh ji

socha to bachya karo

bas naam yadd rahe-----bhai vir singh

Bhul Chuk di Khima

Daas

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

[GABROO KHALISTAN DAH]

forget all rehtinamas

stay strict to the rehit provided by guru sahibs 52 hukumns live as gur-sikhs

guru ji never said ne thing about women or men, he adressed khalsa

[Jkaur]

i agree to whatever bhenjee balwinder kaur said.. menopause is sthin which is given by god... den how can u say women are unclean at that time.. oh come on thats wut da muslims and hindus think .. not SIKHS... its clearly written in asa di vaar ... please for those who would want to refute this statement pls read up asa di vaar first... bhul chuk maaf karni

[gupt faujaan]

"jion jooroo sirnaavani aavehn vaaro vaar"

joothean joothan mukh vasehn nit nit hohen khuaar

soochea ehen naa aakheaan behan jee pindaa dhooyee

soochea saeeyee nanakaa jin man vaseeaa soyee"

[serenity]

Balwinderkaur! I did not say I agreed with Bhai Chaupa Singh, I posted that because a reference was made about him and I belive if you believe in a rehitnama then you believe in the whole one without chopping and changing what was said...therefore my comment that I'm not really sure about bhai chaupa singh's rehitnama.

Please don't make assumptions about me and my beliefs, I never said I agreed. Yes I have read asa di //.