Happy Independance Day!

[skepticSikh]

just because you don't get things at once doesn't mean you resort to violent means. In fact, the most constructive measure is STILL to continue demands for state's rights. Yes, i'm 23 years late in this demand, but that's because I'm 16. Besides, whatever you just said, about the state's rights being ignored up to this very day, and about ignored demands, does not automatically prove that demanding a separate country or using violent means to that end is justified.

Keep in mind that the India just 20 years ago had a flunk economy, and effectively a dictatorship. Yes, I recognize the monster that was Indira, I recognize the single-party rule that existed in India for so many decades. But also remember the India of today; don't be cynical and say nothing has changed. At least today you have a strong economy, and worldwide attention. I even heard about the recent changes in class textbooks of political science that present Gandhi and Nehru in a more unbiased light (by agruing against the effectiveness of non-alignment, by questioning the decades of single-party rule). There is change.

And skepticism against my own people? I never view it as that. I treat everything with my utmost logical reasoning and try to look at its every side. I know when logic gives way to personal choice (like in religion), but i also know that almost everything real and physical in our world can be better understood through the eyes of rationality. There's no discrimination against apna or pariah.

I guess you want to hear me rant against India, to satisfy your desire to see me fight your cause. Well, I've already said just how terribly convoluted Indian politics have been, and are (single-party rule, dictatorship, ignorance of state rights). But I don't see India as a man, torturing the innocent punjabi/asamese/muslim gujarati woman; I see the fact that politics is almost always dirty, but that our best bet to advance Punjab lies as a part of India than as without. Don't think with your heart, think with your mind; do you really support separatism? Do you not foresee what the central government would do in response to violence? They would use violent Sikh aggression and extremely quixotic demands and turn them out be an enemy again. They would undermine the reputation of the movement in the international arena. And they would economically starve punjab of its potential, while subverting its agricultural produce.

Now, think of the alternative. In a much more democratic India, with its economy hinging on its claim that it is "a part of the free world", the press would slowly reach liberal and open state it has reached in the west. Education would be world-class, since it would be standardized to meet global needs. The end result would be a democratic generation that would view Punjab/Assam/Gujarat as just another state in the union, not some violent hotbed. Economic gains might still not reach the extremely poor, but standards of living will obviously improve. The key difference would be the absence of a militant idealogy, and in its place a LEGITIMATE, democratic, and politically representative movement, steadily gaining strength, that would obviously bring about a compromise good enough to keep the union intact, and TO KEEP THE GAINS INDIA HAS MADE INTACT. That's something impossible with Khalistan, which would effectively be a theocratic, totalitarian state, no matter what the leaders of today say.

I am against khalistan for practical, real reasons; nothing is out of spite. I'm not against sikhism; in fact, i want a punjab in which sikhs are prosperous, and happy enough to progress in life. Since Khalistan as a separate nation could never provide this, I am against any attempts to create it.

Now if you want to debate how pragmatic the notion of a separate state is, i'm open. But think about it logically before starting your next post...

[ocelot]

It is from early post by someone else

Now explane

1)Is Bill Clinton wrong, Indian intelligence dont kill innocent singhs in Chattisinghpura, So CIA is wrong.

2)1984 Sikhs were killed indian military not by sikh regiment.

3)In bluestar Hindus distribute ladoos and the main commander arora was not a sikh but a Patit.

4)Prime minister Indira gandhi was responsible for this attack.

5)All sikhs that were killed by police were only done by Sikh Police, Hindus only try to protect them.

6)Hindu govt does not want to give Sikh reference Library.

7)Is nothing in Hindu marriage Act objectionable.

8)Is RSS a saviour of Sikhs.

9)Indian media always want to portray sikhs as terrorists and one with no intelligence.

10)News are biased against Sikhs.

11)Gobind Ram who say he will kill all sikhs.

12)Editor of jag bani, jeevan Ram????????

13)Prime minister says "Sikh ik mujrayem shuda kaum hai".

14)Water is given to haryana and rajasthan.

15)Sikhs going to Asian games were mercilessly beaten in haryana.

16)congress govt Sonia gandhi gives cabinet Birth to Jagdish Tytler.

I will like to ask

1)The hindus hate sikhs so they want to portray sikhs as fools (using 12 o clock) or terrorists.

2)The person Choota Ram who killed 14 sikhs in delhi in 84 was given 12 years Judge says that the action was taken in stream of emotions, while all sikhs as halwara are given death sentence.

Is this your freedom

3)You know Riperian law, it is applicable in entire world, why not in Punjab?

Is this your freedom

4)Innocent sikhs are in jails, for more than 25 years and not released.

Is this your freedom

5)Policemen killing sikhs and raping our sisters were given promotions.

Is this your freedom

6)All symbols for 84 were removed on centers direction.

Is this your freedom

7)Major General Subheg singh was removed from army for stealing a jeep.

Is this your freedom

8)Maam and Bittu were captured without any major fault.

Is this your freedom

9)There is a huge conc structure created in haryana surronding Punjab villages for water transport, which directly affects punjab as it leads to cross drainage problems. and they never consider the plight of villagers in punjab.

10) On women day army officer announced in punjab that if any singh(Khadkoo) is found then he will shoot all sikhs, take women and have a new breed.

If you want link i can post.

Is this your freedom

11)What about Hindu marriage act?

Is this your freedom

12)Sikhs are second class citizens, my brother when purchasing sticker "Raaj Karega Khalsa" a Hindu come and say he will take him to police station.

Is this your freedom

13)Advani etc all destroy babri maszid, People in Blast cases are convicted (even sanjay Dutt 6 years, but who did babri masjid and Bombay rights are free and at higher posts.

Is this your freedom

14)Law as Tada was used against Sikhs. Know what tada is.

Is this your freedom

15)The sikhs cannot Purchase land in surrounding states but anyone can purchase land in Punjab.

Is this your freedom

16)100 crores given on Tricentary ceremonies by center 50 given to sikhs and 50 to Rss, you can understand what i want to say.

Is this your freedom

17)Innocent sikhs were killed in fake encounters, Just see Human Right record of India in Punjab in 90

Is this your freedom

18)The attack on Golden temple occur on 6 june the auspicious day on which large sangat was there to kill max innocent sikhs. The truth is before any action the place is siezed people are stopped from entering and for several days negotiation are done to bring people out, even see lal masjid. Govt dont go on using tanks?

You cannot justify 6 June?

Is this your freedom

There is no freedom, freedom only is for patits as they are more indulged to impress girls and drink.

Freedom is only for those who have left sikhi and forget the past.

[S1ngh]

If India was in changing process then how come they didn't changed the constitution which clearly ignore that there is religion called "Sikhism" (i know you are smart enough to know what Hindu Marriage Act means). Good that you mentioned the text book of high schools.. Here's related to Sikhs of India:

I have read the Indian School book called "Medieval India - A History Textbook of Class XI," by NCERT and prescribed by Central Board of Secondary Education (CBSE). This book is full of distortion of Sikh history and totally out of tune with the principles and philosophy of Sikhism. It is born out of malice and it is a deliberate distortion of Sikhism and Sikh history. It is outrageous and the deponent has deeply felt hurt after going through the paragraph relating to the Sikhs.

If you have time please go to this link and read the whole page as there are many books and authors bent on distorting sikh dharam: http://www.sikhstudies.org/Periodicals.asp?TtlCod=491

I will say india is good equal law abiding country only:

1) If they announce that Sikhism is not part of Hinduism and declare Sikh Marriage Act as Legal govt approved paperwork.

2) Okay apology is far but at least Give back priceless hand written granths of our gurus back to Darbar Sahib (Which was taken in 80's). Whats the point of holding it in Delhi?

I am in no way attacking you or others just because you/they have different viewpoint but there is no sense of defending one who is on mission to ignore pleas of minorities and on bent to destroy their culture, history and religion.

[Mehtab Singh]

I'd say they start out with apologizing for Operation Bluestar. I know thats something they wouldn't do even in their dreams, and even Sikhs may not forgive it, but atleast it could be a start. Then apologize for 1984 anti-Sikh genocide. Unless these 2 apologies are sought from the Khalsa Panth, we can't talk on the same frequency, and there is no place for what we would like to call a negotiation table. I strongly support peace, but then the question turns around "Does the government want peace?" Punjab in the 80s is an old news, look at the police today. Police brutality is reaching heights in every other state in India. And those scumbags are not apologizing for that at all. They beat up women, they beat up students protesting for their rights, they don't even spare old people. Such is the plight of the general Indian public. Veerjee remember its not the Indians or Hindus who we are against, its some of the inhuman policies of the government which every sane Indian (Hindu or Muslim or Sikh) hates as well, and hates it with a passion.

[skepticSikh]

In short, of course I agree with the injustices that have occured. But you missed my true opinion; I said I disagree with Khalistan as a separate country in response to this injustice. I don't that it is a viable, workable solution.

And the above post was very wellsaid. At least you are trying to suggest a way forward, Mehtab Singh. I agree, the Indian politics of the day and of yesterday, heck, forever, have been divisive and racist and have incited violence. I agree that the police does not care at all for the wellbeing of society and instead fusses over the needs of politicians. The enemy here is those who abuse their power, those who pit religions against each other to subdue the masses and win votes. If you don't see them as the enemy, ocelot, you're not on the same page...

[Guest Narinder Singh]

In short, of course I agree with the injustices that have occured. But you missed my true opinion; I said I disagree with Khalistan as a separate country in response to this injustice. I don't that it is a viable, workable solution.

And the above post was very wellsaid. At least you are trying to suggest a way forward, Mehtab Singh. I agree, the Indian politics of the day and of yesterday, heck, forever, have been divisive and racist and have incited violence. I agree that the police does not care at all for the wellbeing of society and instead fusses over the needs of politicians. The enemy here is those who abuse their power, those who pit religions against each other to subdue the masses and win votes. If you don't see them as the enemy, ocelot, you're not on the same page...

With that being said, there is no other solution other than complete liberation from the Indian government.

Khalistan Zindabaad! The People of India Zindabaad!

Fateh.

[Bijla Singh]

In short, of course I agree with the injustices that have occured. But you missed my true opinion; I said I disagree with Khalistan as a separate country in response to this injustice. I don't that it is a viable, workable solution.

This is simply your opinion and not a fact. Clearly you don't understand the value and benefits of a separate country. If you are not against Sikhi then why are you opposed to a country that will represent Sikhs as Sikhs and not as Indians, Americans or Canadians? During British Empire there were so many advancements taking place such as Maxwell's Equations, relativity, quantum physics, telephone, electricity, tanks, airplanes, atomic bombs etc but this in no way served as an excuse to jeopardize freedom. By your logic all Indians were foolish to ignore prosperity of British Empire and technology it brought to India and wanted to have an independent country. Economy, money, technology etc cannot be used to jeopardize one's freedom, honor and dignity. British were nice enough to appoint an investigation commission for 1919 massacre and never once attacked Darbar Sahib even though it was the center of all morchas whereas India, the so-called "democracy", was quick to attack Darbar Sahib in 55 and abandoned Anand Marriage Act of British. Sikhs are better rulers than Hindus and we can do better what we have done in the past. Even if Sikhs had equal rights in India, I wouldn't call it my own. Trusting them is out of the question. The way I see it you are just a kid who doesn't know what is going on in India right now other than "economic boom" which according to you is good enough to risk honor of our women and safety of our religion. If 60 years of oppression is not enough for you to see the truth then you never will.

[chatanga]

Thank You Bijla Singh. I absolutely would never ever trust the ravan delhi hakoomat. No matter what they say, their is just too much history to ever reconcile us. I wasnt really born an indian, but I know i'll never die an indian.

None of us can ever say that Sikhs will be successful or unsuccessful in our own country, and to hear some people on this forum be absolutely sure that Khalistan will never be successful is just out of order. You do not know that. There are advantages and disadvantages, like with most things in life, but at least we should have the freedom to choose, without being killed by ravan sena.

india is the mother that kills its children.

india is the snake that eats it children.

chatanga

[skepticSikh]

Your message of a Sikh state standing on its own in South Asia sure is alluring, but you are divorced from reality. The conditions in Punjab (corruption, police rule, misrepresentation) won't cease to exist in Khalistan; they would be magnified.

Firstly, what would be the border of Khalistan? Would it include the whole Panjab province of Pakistan, and Punjab, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh in India? Would it just be the Indian Punjab? Right there I see a whole host of competing "Sikh" leaders trying to win over the population.

Secondly, what would the government-type of Khalistan be? Theocracy? Perhaps something along the lines of what Iran has become? There is no guarantee that the movement could result in democratic society. Just look at the track record of recent movements by people to create a state. The Israelis tried it, and still pay with terrorism. Their whole existence hinged on Western support, and the military inefficacy of Palestinians. Look at Palestinians...West Bank ruled by Fatah, and Gaza by Hamas. Two separate camps arising out of the same struggle.

Thirdly, would the creation of Khalistan justify terrorism? Would Sikhs become suicide bombers? This is a very real threat, the threat of creating military extremists who subvert the legitimate demands with illegitimate means.

And lastly, what is your true aim? To represent the Sikhs? To prevent crimes against Sikhs? There are already ways to do that. How about a global Sikh Congress that addresses issues (like in France, Ireland, and India) through diplomacy? We all know that the SGPC isn't exactly representing us at all.

Khalistan's only real existence is in the imagination of the Sikh people. As of now, there is no way Khalistan can exist without resorting to illegitimate means. I think your aim is justified - to represent Sikhs - but that a separate nation is not that way to do it.

And by the way, I am a kid, and that is an ad hominem attack. You cannot or don't want to answer the practical question that Khalistan is an unviable solution, so you call me a "kid", say "its only your opinion" and say "there, that disproves your argument". Understand that I agree with you more than you realize. I already agree with the legitimacy of wanting representation, and also the legitimacy of asking for justice for the crimes that have been committed. I only disagree with the vehicle to realize that demand.

[S1ngh]

Skepticsingh, i think you should stay away from discussing topics such as Khalistan and other sikh political issues because there are somethings which is hard for kids to understand and you are not on that stage level either. You haven't seen the world nor you faced any hardship like most of us did both in east and west and we don't only talk but we take action in the best democratic way.

I would suggest other members that talking to kids is hard and not worth your time in discussing about khalistan issues. Myself, I perfer not to discuss such issues specially the one who think that govt of any country is simple plain white like Angel without of any participation in communal violence including killing their own ppl to justify their own political, personal & religious agenda.