New Article: Bibek

[Mehtab Singh]

Bottom line...

Jin prem kiyo, tin hi prabh paayo

If we start judging each other based on "Oh he/she isn't Bibeki, he/she is not a proper Sikh", or "Oh he/she is a Bibek freak, he/she is a hardliner/fanatic"...well, both have infact lost the plot...

[chatrik]

Dass will make it clear:

A Khalsa of Guru Sahib Keeps a Pukka Amrit wela…..does Naam Abhiyaas of 2.5 hours a day atleast.A Khalsa of Guru Sahib in love with NAAM.If these rehits are not in a gursikh, then keeping bibek will just promote their ego and lead to pakhand.

A Khalsa of Guru Gobind Singh Sahib Maharaj keeps 2 forms of BIBEK.

1. The first and vital bibek is called “BIBEK BUDH” which means “discerning intellect”.This form of Bibek comes when we follow Guru Sahibs teachings and when Guru Sahib does keerpa on us.This is when we realize the truth about life, importance of naam, learn to differentiate what is GOOD and BAD ……(will not go into detail…but its related to topic indirectly).

The importance of BIBEK BUDH for a Gursikh is mentioned in gurbani as below:

guramukh giaan bibaek budhh hoe ||

The Gurmukh is blessed with spiritual wisdom and a discerning intellect(ang 317)

In the below line Guru Sahib tells us to beg for BIBEK BUDHI, this shows how important it is.

haar pari-o su-aamee kai du-aarai deejai buDh bibaykaa. rahaa-o.

I have collapsed, exhausted, at the Door of my Lord Master; I pray that He may grant me a discerning intellect. ||Pause||(ang641)

2.In this blog article by Singhni Miri called BIBEK, Singhni jee does veechar about a “PHYSICAL REHIT” which is also called bibek .This is the 2nd form of bibek .The article gives a clear explanation on this rehit.

Now to answer Akirtghan,

dont put words in my mouth, when did i say the ENTIRE article was wrong

Yes, dass aggress that you said nothing……but, when you use a sign like this>> <<

It clearly show you disrespect the Gurmukh who wrote the article and the GURMAT in the article. I am sure any Gursikh reading this will agree with dass.

If we truly love Guru Sahib we will not disrespect another gursikh, because end of the day we have the SAME guru:Dhan Sree Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj.

i'm not gonna bother debating about this, you have your views i have mine.

What YOU think doesn’t matter…

What I think doesn’t matter…

Whatever Guru Sahib teaches us is what only matters…

would just like to point out that taking literal translations of gurbani should be avoided at all costs.

Why?

if we have a confusion regarding a matter…who are we to refer to then?????

Bani is GURU…..and a true Guru like Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj never fails to guide his Sikhs to the right path……

Bani Guru, Guru Hai Bani, Vich Bani Amrit Saaray.(ang 982)

bibek is required, no doubt, but when you use literal translations to prove that guru granth sahib ji says it is required, thats not right.

First you say bibek is required….

But then you say referring to gurbani on this issue is not right?

If gurbani doesn’t even touch on this issue….. then there is no need for Gursikhs to Keep this rehit at first place.

This is the panktee dass posted:

kabeer saakat sang na keejee-ai dooreh jaa-ee-ai bhaag.

Kabeer, do not associate with the faithless cynics; run far away from them.

baasan kaaro parsee-ai ta-o kachh laagai daag. ||131||

If you touch a vessel stained with soot, some of the soot will stick to you. ||131||

The above is an ACURATE arth of this Gurbani line.Feel free, to ask any knowledgeable Gursikh, you will get the same translation as above.

Singhni Miripiri just talked about keeping bibek rehit….eating food prepared by amritdhare or by ourselves alone……this rehit is clearly mentioned by Puratan Rehitnamehs.

Guru Sahib clearly says in the line above that “kabeer, saakat sang na keejee-ai”, Guru Sahib clearly say we should not associate with the faithless cynics(sakats,patits,nigurey)……

A gursikh should not make friends with such people or be in their sangat in anyway……

Guru Sahib stops us from doing their sangat going near them……

If even doing their sangat and going near such people is forbidden by Guru Sahib, how can food prepared by such people be acceptable to a Naam Abhiyasi gursikh?

Guru Sahib also explains to us what the reason is:

baasan kaaro parsee-ai ta-o kachh laagai daag. ||131||

If you touch a vessel stained with soot, some of the soot will stick to you. ||131||

The above is where Guru Sahib says that our BIBEK BUDHI(discerning intellect.) will get effected.The blog post by Singhni Miripiri gives a clear explanation on this issue with the sakhis covering this issue.

According to Guru Sahib jee, if our bibek budhi can be influenced/polluted by being in their sangat alone……

Imagine consuming food prepared by such people??…the kind of effect it will have on us have been told in a few sakhis in Singhni Miripiri’s blog post.

There is only ONE PURPOSE for Bibek Rehit.That is to preserve our BIBEK BUDHI from being getting effected.

what do you make of this tuk? try to go deeper than what the literal translation says

PrIdw mnu mYdwnu kir toey itby lwih ]

fareedhaa man maidhaan kar ttoeae ttibae laahi ||

Fareed, flatten out your mind; smooth out the hills and valleys.

AgY mUil n AwvsI dojk sMdI Bwih ]74]

agai mool n aavasee dhojak sa(n)dhee bhaahi ||74||

Hereafter, the fires of hell shall not even approach you. ||74||

Maharaj is telling us to battle with our mind……

which is the rehit kept by a true gursikh mentally….

what does this has to do with bibek?

Stop going off topic.

PrIdw Kwlku Klk mih Klk vsY rb mwih ]

fareedhaa khaalak khalak mehi khalak vasai rab maahi ||

Fareed, the Creator is in the Creation, and the Creation abides in God.

mMdw iks no AwKIAY jW iqsu ibnu koeI nwih ]75]

ma(n)dhaa kis no aakheeai jaa(n) this bin koee naahi ||75||

Whom can we call bad? There is none without Him. ||75||

The shabad above is by Sheikh Fareed Jee.He achieved an avastha where he saw Allah in EVERYONE.Fareed jee came to a conclusion that to slander anyone is equal to slander God Himself, as HE is in ALL .

This shabad is about us not doing NINDA of other and has NOTHING to do with Bibek.

Again, off topic!

Eventho, HE is in EVERYONE, yet HE sends the sinners to hell and throws the sinners into 8.4 million forms of lives doesn’t HE?

Guru Sahib advises us to stay away from sinful deeds…..

At the same time Guru Sahib has also advises us to REFRAIN from the sangat of sinfull people who are known as sakats/nigurey.Read the 2 gurbani lines below CAREFULLY.

Again, this line from gurbani is applicable :

kabeer saakat sang na keejee-ai dooreh jaa-ee-ai bhaag.

Kabeer, do not associate with the faithless cynics; run far away from them.

baasan kaaro parsee-ai ta-o kachh laagai daag. ||131||

If you touch a vessel stained with soot, some of the soot will stick to you. ||131||

Gurbani doesn’t teach us to hate anyone, gurbani does teach us to hate sinfull deeds as these deeds are the cause we are separated from Vaheguroo.

Here is another line , where Guru Sahib how we should deal with manmukhs(slaves of their mind):

mandaa kisai na aakhee-ai parh akhar ayho bujhee-ai.

Do not call anyone bad; read these words, and understand.

moorkhai naal na lujhee-ai. ||19||

Don't argue with fools. ||19||(ang 473)

Gurparsad

[Guest Akirtghan]

Yes, dass aggress that you said nothing……but, when you use a sign like this>> nonono.gif <<

It clearly show you disrespect the Gurmukh who wrote the article and the GURMAT in the article

so when i dont agree with you, thats just as bad as disrespecting you? :D

u know what, after reading the next line, i'm done man. you missed the point entirely

your take on bhagat freed sahib's tuk is not correct btw. ask any scholar. hint: Mahalla 5 !!!!

people get offended too fast man :ysad: i'm done

[N30S1NGH]

Sarbloh bibek is good to have but again not everything is black and white in Sikhi. Sarbloh bibek is "NOT" absolutely neccesary in Gursikhi Bhagti Marg. I wouldn't diss any sarbloh bibeki out there..they have my support and respect... It's good for them they keep external bibek. I just hope they pay as much intention to internal bibek as well while they are maintaining external bibek.

You have many mahapursh ie- hoti mardan mahapursh, rara sahib waley, reru sahib waley, bhindranwale mahapursh- baba sunder singh ji bhindranwale, mustaneywaley, baba nand singh ji mahapursh, nirmale sant mandali and many more mahapursh who did not kept sarbloh bibek but still got bhram da gyan by kirpa of Satguru. And Nobody on this forum can challenge that.

People who are sarbloh bibeki, some of them create black and white notions of things- do or don't ..if you don't do what they beleif.. you are following manmat, you are kacha-pilla singh with no rehit.. blah blah blah...i mean there are

levels of bibek, rehit.. for example- baba jagjit singh ji and his teacher- baba jawala singh ji harkhowale they were both sarbloh bibeki.. however difference between bibek they followed

is way different than bibek black/white/katarvadi sikhs follow.. they know where to

use bibek and where not to... baba jagjit singh ji openly said in a

tape-mentioning one prof sahib as vadda bibeki( in sarcasm) ban gaya..he wouldnt eat from his mother or wife.. what good is the bibek when you hurting others and when there is no pyaar towards creation..black/white/katarvadi sikhs don't get it... their bhai sahib said- bibek.. that's it.. bibek for life.they don't understand different levels of bibek... they don't agree that

there is some times you gotta have very minimum bibek and sometimes

normal ALL Depends on the circumstances.. also there are levels of outer rehit

as well. Let me give you example:

sant baba jawala singh ji was very close with sant baba

Gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale.. baba jawala singh ji when he lived with udasi

mastana fakir after getting premission from his murshid/gurdev - baba aya singh

ji hoti mardanwaley..he got so intoxicated with naam rang living with

mastana fakir... he toook off all his clothes... sat on a river in naam masti

rang..upon hearing this baba aya singh ji advised him to take amrit again

that not that he committed any kurahit or broke any rehit or guru maharaj

was not happy but only because sant baba jawala singh ji's students may

notget this kautak and may go astray... levels of rehit/bibek are for

students (like us) to be honest...it can not be pushed down in throats of

mahapursh..mahapursh according to their will...they can adapt any three

natures* .. i got that from baba jagjit singh ji

book..now if this sakhi was narrated to people who follow black/white sikhi..it will really challenge their beleifs..since they have notions of black and white..

they will either say this sakhi is false or say sant baba jawala singh ji

committed kurahit/manmat taking all of his clothes with kachera, kirpan

which is quite expected because they are not aware of grey (exceptional

area). They would also reach similiar conculsations towards other mahapursh ie- sant baba atttar singh ji mustaneywale, baba nand singh ji , baba isher singh ji rara sahib.

Three natures of Bhramgyanis*:

source: The Radiance of complete journey to Akaal Purkh by Sant baba Jagjit Singh Ji Harkhowaley.

Three kinds of BhramGyani(Sants,Mahatama, Mahapursh)...

1. Mastane: Intoxicated ones through remembrance get themselves merged with Almighty(Vahiguroo). More carefree un-attached will boldly function. Do not reveal their secret. Talk in Mysterious tone. Very few rarely come to understand. Have no time to teach common people. Always remain lost in spiritual contemplation. Some rare persons can take benefit from them.

2. Divane- Madhin lover remain intoxicated in God's love but give out sometime such inner secret that proves a source of life for the seekers, who after having themselves proven worth in their sight are also able to colour others in God's Love.

3. Daane- The wise ones who live according to what they preach and talk in understandable tone which benefits all and hearing which people renounce evil deeds. They always treat the path of truth and are eager for welfare of one and all.

And people who use gurbani to prove their sarbloh bibek are misguided, when gurbani talks about bibek is bibek buddi and also example of hans were given how they discriminate their food from worms, given updesh to human to discriminate good from bad- gyan from ignorance/avidya

[Mehtab Singh]

You have many mahapursh ie- hoti mardan mahapursh, rara sahib waley, reru sahib waley, bhindranwale mahapursh- baba sunder singh ji bhindranwale, mustaneywaley, baba nand singh ji mahapursh, nirmale sant mandali and many more mahapursh who did not kept sarbloh bibek but still got bhram da gyan by kirpa of Satguru. And Nobody on this forum can challenge that.

Gyani Sant Singh Ji Maskeen also, as far as I know, was not a bibeki.

All said and done, one should try to keep as much bibek as possible. The problem arises when one who keeps bibek starts judging another who doesn't/can't because of his/her circumstances.

[chatrik]

Sarbloh bibek is good to have but again not everything is black and white in Sikhi. Sarbloh bibek is "NOT" absolutely neccesary in Gursikhi Bhagti Marg. I wouldn't diss any sarbloh bibeki out there..they have my support and respect... It's good for them they keep external bibek. I just hope they pay as much intention to internal bibek as well while they are maintaining external bibek.

You have many mahapursh ie- hoti mardan mahapursh, rara sahib waley, reru sahib waley, bhindranwale mahapursh- baba sunder singh ji bhindranwale, mustaneywaley, baba nand singh ji mahapursh, nirmale sant mandali and many more mahapursh who did not kept sarbloh bibek but still got bhram da gyan by kirpa of Satguru. And Nobody on this forum can challenge that.

Did you even read any of post by dass....or the post posted by Singhni Miripiri at first place, before posting such a long post on Sarabloh Bibek?

You will only see, us mentioning BIBEK and not Sarabloh Bibek.

Saraboh bibek is only menntioned, if we wish to keep MORE rehit.

There is a HUGE of difference.....

In Bibek, a gursikh doesn't consume food cooked and served by a nigura/sakat/patit as they commit kurehits and such people have no Naam Abhiyaas in their lives.A gursikh only takes food prepared by another Gursikh.This is the basic rehit, which EVERY Gursikh you mentioned have kept.

Sarabloh Bibek, includes everything above , but the all the food must only be prepared in Sarabloh utensils .

If someone want to bring more into their Bibek rehit they may feel free to do so.

You have many mahapursh ie- hoti mardan mahapursh, rara sahib waley, reru sahib waley, bhindranwale mahapursh- baba sunder singh ji bhindranwale, mustaneywaley, baba nand singh ji mahapursh, nirmale sant mandali and many more mahapursh who did not kept sarbloh bibek but still got bhram da gyan by kirpa of Satguru. And Nobody on this forum can challenge that.

Again your facts are inacurate.

I remember reading Jeewan of Baba Nand Singh ji(The book is published by NanakSar Kaleran), he stayed a life of a hermit.He always moved around.Many people would come to offer langgar to him.From reading the sakhis, I understand that he only took food prepared by Amritdharee Gursikhs who did Simran.

Baba Attar SIngh also had a same jeewan like Baba Nand Singh and from what I gather after reading his jeewan, he only took food prepared by Gursikhs who do Naam Simran in their daily lives .

When Baba Thakur Singh and his jatha came to where I live in, dass got peshed there.Dass remembers clearly than the Panj Piarey saying," do not do sanj of ROTI(food) and BETI(daughter) with those who are not Rehitvaan Amritdhari Gursikhs"

Nari maar, kuri maar....including those who commit anyone one of the 4 kurehit...all these people fall into the Category with people with whom we should not take food from.Thats the reason its best to take food prepared only by amridharees gursikhs or by ourself.

Also Dass remembers clearly, when Baba Thakur SIngh came here.Baba Ji and Jatha was called by someone to their house, because they wanted to do langgar de sewa for these gursikhs.I and a few other locals also went along with baba ji and his jatha.

It happen to be that, the owner of the house was not an amritdharee and also cut their hair.

Baba ji and his jatha singhs, did not partake any cooked food.They only took some fruits served(apple and banana).

Even tho, I remember taking cooked food back then along with a few other locals.

I also know personally a Singh who was close to Baba Jarnail Singh.According to him

Baba Jarnail SIngh was not a sarabloh bibeki...but he observed the basic BIBEK rehit as explained in Gurmat Rehit Maryada.That is not to consume food cooked and prepared by patits/nigurey/sakat. Baba ji only took food cooked by amritdhari gursikhs.

Whatever you have mentioned above doesn't seem to be CONSISTENT with what dass have "read" in the gurmukhs jeewan , "seen" by myself and “heard” from gursikhs.

Having said as above, if we choose not to follow Bibek rehit then it is our own personal issue. Just because it doesn’t make sense to us yet or doesn’t suit our modern life style doesn’t mean we need to oppose it to great lengths .

If we study the Jeewan of Naam Abhiyasi Gursikhs, they kept this rehit because they understood the effect of consuming food prepared by a patit/sakat/nigura on their Bibek Budhi.

As long as we don’t keep an amrit wela routine….a minimum abhiyaas of 2.5 hours a day, we will not be able to use our bibek budhi to understand the importance of this rehit and other important rehits which we neglect.

I also agree many Naujawana nowdays keep this rehit but don’t have much Naam rehit in their Jeewan, this will just lead to pure ego.

Many individuals who are slaves of their mind , who do not perform Naam Abhiyaas/Amrit wela in their daily lives to will not understand this rehit….because they are not addicted to Naam.

Naam Addicted gursikhs keep Bibek rehit for only ONE REASON,to keep themselves addicted to Naam 24/7 so that their Bibek Budhi is not effected by consuming food from a manmukh. Because they don’t want to suffer the same fate as RAMANAND in the sakhi told by Singni Miripiri.

Dass has personally experienced what Ramanand experienced many times, with Guru Sahibs keerpa after keeping Bibek rehit.My dhyan during abhiyass has not been affected since dass started keeping this rehit.

Dass will not gain wealth, richness, diamonds or gold by convincing people on this forum regarding BIBEK.But, for those who know the value of Naam and have a hunger for it will understand what dass has tried to say.

Bhul Chull Maaf karma Guru Pireo.

Gurparsad

[chatrik]

so when i dont agree with you, thats just as bad as disrespecting you? :D

You can say anything about dass....fell free to do so.

Dass is not happy with your attitude of ridiculing the gursikh who did the sewa of the article.

If you you disagree you can bring it up in a civilized manner....ask questions.

There is no need for you to show "your ATTITUDE" with this sign.>> <<

If you don't agree with other gursikhs, its fine. This doesnt mean we need to send a NEGETIVE response to other.

u know what, after reading the next line, i'm done man. you missed the point entirely

Till now you have made NOT made even a point in this bibek topic....besides this sign>>

and argue with dass.

your take on bhagat freed sahib's tuk is not correct btw. ask any scholar. hint: Mahalla 5 !!!!

The gurbani lines you quoted come at page 1381....These are known as SALOK of SHEIKH FAREED JEE.

These Shaloks Of Shaykh Fareed Jee , they START AT PAGE 1377 and end at page 1384..In total there are 130 saloks.

If you read all the saloks, the word NANAK is not used at all.

Its Sheikh Fareed Jee's Bani, thats why the word FAREED is used over and over again.

Here is the link to page 1377:

http://www.sikhnet.com/sggs/translation/1377.html

Scroll down and this is what you will read:

slok syK PrId ky(1377-15)

salok saykh fareed kay

Shaloks Of Shaykh Fareed Jee:

<> siqgur pRswid ] (1377-15)

ik-oNkaar satgur parsaad.

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

Its clear that this all the which comes after the Manglacaran is Bhagat Fareed jee's bani.

Sheikh Fareed jee lived before the time of Guru Nanak Dev Sahib Maharaj, these saloks of Sheikh jee were written by Guru Arjan Dev jee into Gurbani.Thats why it says MAHALLA 5 .

This shows Guru Sahib gave authority, to these saloks as Gurbani.(dass maybe wrong...other gursikhs may feel free to correct dass...but this is the explanation dass received after disccusing about these saloks with a knowledgable Gursikh.

people get offended too fast man :ysad: i'm done

From the SAME salok of fareed jee you quoted to dass, this is what Maharaj Says in the LAST 2 SALOKs:

ik fikaa na gaalaa-ay sabhnaa mai sachaa Dhanee.

Do not utter even a single harsh word; your True Lord and Master abides in all.

hi-aa-o na kaihee thaahi maanak sabh amolvay. ||129||

Do not break anyone's heart; these are all priceless jewels. ||129||

sabhnaa man maanik thaahan mool machaaNgvaa.

The minds of all are like precious jewels; to harm them is not good at all.

jay ta-o piree-aa dee sik hi-aa-o na thaahay kahee daa. ||130||

If you desire your Beloved, then do not break anyone's heart. ||130||

(ang 1384)

gurparsad

[N30S1NGH]

Before i discuss this bibek topic further with you chatrik:

I have a simple question for you, too see where you coming from when you said:

In Bibek, a gursikh doesn't consume food cooked and served by a nigura/sakat/patit as they commit kurehits and such people have no Naam Abhiyaas in their lives.A gursikh only takes food prepared by another Gursikh.This is the basic rehit, which EVERY Gursikh you mentioned have kept.

You said, gursikh doesnt consume food cooked and served by a nirgura/sakat or patit..make sense.. what i really want to know..

a) whats your defination of nigura/sakat/patit?

and real question i have for you is:

b) can we consume food cooked and served by an hindu, buddhist, sufi follower who have taken gurmantar from their gurdev from their mat?? ,they cannot be called nigura/sakat or patit, can they? he/she is a gurrawala just like followers of bhagats like kabir, ravidas, namdev, baba farid, bhagat pipa, sain, sadhna, gangka papan, raja janak, trilochan, dhanna took amrit amrit from these bhagats. Bhagat bani are very integral part of sikhi- whose writing we have in sri guru granth sahib and bow down to everyday took amrit (gurmantar) from their own gurus, and are included in gurbani.

[chatrik]

Before i discuss this bibek topic further with you chatrik:

I have a simple question for you, too see where you coming from when you said:

QUOTE

In Bibek, a gursikh doesn't consume food cooked and served by a nigura/sakat/patit as they commit kurehits and such people have no Naam Abhiyaas in their lives.A gursikh only takes food prepared by another Gursikh.This is the basic rehit, which EVERY Gursikh you mentioned have kept.

You said, gursikh doesnt consume food cooked and served by a nirgura/sakat or patit..make sense.. What dass really want to know..

a) whats your defination of nigura/sakat/patit?

Let dass make it clear...

1. There is no such thing as MY DEFINATION of nigura/sakat/patit.

2. Guru Sahib (gurbani) has a clear defination about such people...

3. Looking at the the post by you in the link below..

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?s=&amp...st&p=282969

Since you can provide the sangat with details who is a Khalsa and a Sikh...dass doesn't think you don't know who a nigura/patit/sakat is.If you can find quotes from Gurbani who a Khalsa and a Sikh is, then dass is also sure you won't have any problem finding out who is a sakat/patit/nigura is according to gurbani.

and real question i have for you is:

b) can we consume food cooked and served by an hindu, buddhist, sufi follower who have taken gurmantar from their gurdev from their mat?? ,they cannot be called nigura/sakat or patit, can they? he/she is a gurrawala just like followers of bhagats like kabir, ravidas, namdev, baba farid, bhagat pipa, sain, sadhna, gangka papan, raja janak, trilochan, dhanna took amrit amrit from these bhagats. Bhagat bani are very integral part of sikhi- whose writing we have in sri guru granth sahib and bow down to everyday took amrit (gurmantar) from their own gurus, and are included in gurbani.

All the religions you have mentioned above do not belive in having Guru.....or believe in an IMPERFECT GURU.

A True guru has to be PURAN(perfect) in order to Guide his Sikh(student) to Nirankar...

A True Guru is someone who himself is the Form of the formless Lord....who's duty is to guide people to Narayan.

Hindus believe in Devi Devtey....so there is no Guru in their faith ...

Budhist don't believe in God at all....they believe in Budha...how can he be a Guru, when he say God doesn't even exist.They believe the MIND is God, and you merge with it.They believe in Meditation but not in NAAM of the Lord.

They are able to open their Dasam Duar thru meditation and gain accult powers, but they never experience Amrit Rass...Charan Kamal Ki Mauj.

Sufis beleive in Pirs(their saints, and there are many)....a Pir and a Guru is NOT THE SAME.

They also observe other Shariat of Islam like Halal meat,FASTING and going to Hajj to Mecca.

All the BHagats you mentioned above, did come from a Muslim and Hindu Background.

But later on in their lives their religion was no more ISLAM or Hindu Maat...

it was Prema Bhagti, Naam Marag.

How is BHagat Kabeer ji a Muslim when he only uttered Raam in Bhagti?

In Islam God is only to be praised through Arabic language.

Al Rahman, Al Rahim....there are a few examples.

Islam says meat is allowed, Bhagat Kabeer Jee’s bani says the opposite!

How is Ganka a hindu?

when most hindus when they say RAAM they are actually refering to Raam chander and not RAAM(the one formless who is blended in All),When Ganka uttered Raam she didn't put her DHIAN on Raam Chander but solely on the true formless RAAM.

At first she thought the parrot, while teaching the parrot she repeated RAAM RAAM endlessly to educate the parrot, when she repeated RAAM RAAM and heard in continously she felt ANAND...from there she started her Bhagti.

Dhanna was fooled by the Brahmin to worship the Lord in a STONE that the Brahmin gave him.

But there was true love in Dhanna, and the Lord gave him darshan and guided him to Naam(. correct me if I am wrong with the bhagats name)

These bhagats bani is included in Gurbani because they worshiped the ONE formless Niranjan Narayan Nirankar by performing devotional Naam Japna and only this is reconized in the eyes of Vahiguroo.Not by following a particular religion.

This quote from Gurbani gives evidence why these BHAGAT WERE APPROVED:

SARAM DHARAM MEEH SRIST DHARAM.

HAR KO NAAM JAAP NIrMAL KARAM.(ang266)

The bhagats were neither hindu nor were they muslim.If you read their bani, they too reject Hindu and Muslim RITUALS VERY STRONGLY.

Guru's of the bhagats realized the secret of NAAM which other religions have failed to realize.ALL the Bhagats you mentioned were in search of the LORD, so HE THE LORD guided them to their respective Guru to guide them to prema bhagti.

There is NO Guru after Guru Nanak Dev Sahib, He is the the SUPREME Guru in Kalyug.

Dass doesn't see any reason for you to RELATE BHagats to Bibek......

so you meet more bhagats of other faith in your life more often than the Sikhs of Guru Nanak Dev Sahib maharaj, that you see an urgent need to partake cooked food from them?

You have to be a bhagat to realize another bhagat.

Dass doen't know what your Panj told you regarding this,

but Jatheybandees like Damdami Taksal, AKJ, Bhai Bidhi Chand Taksal in their amrit sanchars organized by them inform the Abhilakhis regarding this rehit vert clearly.

Dass is just following what The Panj Piarey told us during amrit sanchar.

Dass doesn't think it is something WISE to question the rehit given by Panj Piarey as you do so.

If someone who is not a Sikh, but insist to offer langgar sewa to us.Then there is noting wrong in taking fruits from then, as fruits don't need to be cooked as they go naturally.

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Descendents of Sai Mian Mir who was a Sufi Pir are still alive till today.

Dass meet Makhdoom Syed Chand Pir Qadri, 19th descendent of Sai Mian Mir, when he came down to where dass lives.His picture is below.(got it from online, after dass did a search)Hez the one with white pagh and beard.Just as how the sufis dress up.

In one of the pictures, you can see the mala of Guru Arjan dev sahib jee, which guru sahib gave as a gift to Sai Mian mir ji.

We all know how close Sai Mia Mir was to Guru Arjan Dev jee.

Here are some facts Makhdoom Syed Chand naratated,

whenever Guru Sahib came to Lahore Guru Sahib stayed with Sai Mian Mir.There was once Guru Sahib even stayed for 6 months with with Sai Mia Mir ji.

A freind of dass asked Makhdoom Syed Chand if Sain Mian Mir consumed meat..since they are muslims..his answer was YESS.He said, shariat allows them to do so according to the HALAL method.

Sai Mian Mir jee, prepared DIFFERENT utensils to be used for Guru Arjan Dev Sahib ji for cooking and eating food from.Guru Sahib always had Sikhs with him when he travelled, so they cooked Guru Sahibs and their own langgar.Whenever Guru Sahib and his sikhs stayed over with Sai Mian Mir ji, these utenstils were used to cook and eat langgar from.

When GUru Hargobind Sahib Maharaj was on gurgadhi, even when GURU SAHIB visited Sai Mian MIr ji, these SAME UTENSILS WERE USED.

The pictures of these utensils relics is provided below.Which was taken when they were down here.

Even different utensils were used to cook food for Guru Arjan Dev ji and Guru Sahib’s Sikh sewadars, the question of food coooked by servants(non-sikh) of Sai Mia Mir just doesn't arise!!!!!

So this PROVES, Sikhs and Guru Sahib himself didn't take food cooked from those who were not Sikhs.

This event was also reported in the local newspaper.Besides the utensils used by Guru Sahib, they also had many other relics with them.This is the news article:

http://www.bernama.com/bernama/v3/news_lite.php?id=239270

Gurparsad

[N30S1NGH]

Let dass make it clear...

1. There is no such thing as MY DEFINATION of nigura/sakat/patit.

2. Guru Sahib (gurbani) has a clear defination about such people...

3. Looking at the the post by you in the link below..

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?s=&amp...st&p=282969

Since you can provide the sangat with details who is a Khalsa and a Sikh...dass doesn't think you don't know who a nigura/patit/sakat is.If you can find quotes from Gurbani who a Khalsa and a Sikh is, then dass is also sure you won't have any problem finding out who is a sakat/patit/nigura is according to gurbani.

I think we are on same page, there are things i agree with you and there are things which i dont agree with you, let me discuss things that we are agreebale first just to recap. I do agree gurbani uses very strong shabad to describe nirguraie some times labeled them as kokar(dogs) and shookar(pigs) so that they feel importance of having guru and get gurmantar from guru.

- However, updesh of guru is sanjha to everyone not just sikhs (as gurbani mentions- updesh is sanjha to everyone- khatri, bhramin, sudar), guru have never imposed that only khalsa/sikh dharam have valid satguru's rest are all fake if this was a case, guru's would never included bhagata bani who were students of their respective guru's.

To back up above claim, please look at my post on three different context of satguru mentioned in gurbani- one is referred to akaal purkh, second is referred to our satguru sahiban, third is referred to bhagat's guru as satguru, there is enough evidence to suggest that in gurbani, read the below link to look into that further:

http://www.sikhsangat.com/content-page/299...urbani/page/36/

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All the religions you have mentioned above do not belive in having Guru.....or believe in an IMPERFECT GURU.

A True guru has to be PURAN(perfect) in order to Guide his Sikh(student) to Nirankar...

A True Guru is someone who has himself the Form of the formless Lord....who's duty is to guide people to Narayan.

Hindus believe in Devi Devtey....so there is no Guru in their faith ...

Sufis beleive in Pirs(their saints, and there are many)....a Pir and a Guru is NOT THE SAME.

They also observe other Shariat of Islam like Halal meat,FASTING and going to Hajj to Mecca. All the BHagats you mentioned above, did come from a Muslim and Hindu Background.

But later on in their lives their religion was no more ISLAM or Hindu Maat...

it was Prema Bhagti, Naam Marag.

What a pile of bullocks, there are many hindu orders along with sufi orders beleive in the concept of guru/gurmantra, before i go further to point which orders, I want you to ponder upon two terms- orgin and meaning of guru-shish in sansktrit and murshid(guru)/murid(sikh)* you be suprised. This guru-shish(sikh) relationship wasnt started/newly invented by our guru sahiban but its been there since anadi.Even the term sikh came from sanskrit.

here is the meaning of guru according to damdami taksal, and other samparda, quoting from gyani thakur singh ji katha on japji sahib- here sri guru nanak dev ji explaining arth of guru to sidhas:

Gur means Chaitan saroop(exist everywhere/sarab vaipakh yet non-existent nirgun).

Gu means agyan daie hanraie(darkness because of ignorance) and r/ru means light. Bringing being from darkness to light is called Gur/ru.

Gur akhar derived from Gir Akhar. Gir means Negating. eg- guru negates sikh gyan (three context of guru which gurbani talks about check the above link).

*

1. Murid: First are those who have taken intiation from their musrhid and have faith in their Murid, sometimes they do seva of them and sometimes they back off, still in dubta.

2. Murid Eh Sadik/Sidki Sikh/Sanmukh Sikh: Second are those who have gained full sidak and their mind never wanders around in vishaie/vikara/vices and have full faith and devotion.

3. Murid Eh Fidai- Third are those who have given tan, man, dhan for service of their murshid bachans.

- Bhagvat gita talks about how krishan maharaj gave atamik updesh to arjuna regarding vahiguroo.

- Just like sikhs have ongkar, hindus also have om- Om/Aum isn't just interpreted as Trimurti, it also is interpreted as the three states of being:

A = waking state

U = dreaming state

M = sleeping/unconscious state

And the dot above the letter "m" is the anusvara, which is a heavy nasal sound.The anusvara (Gurmukhi: tippee or bindi) represents the Turiya state, beyond the Traigun. "Mandukya Upanishad" is an authority on Om

- Here are other orders of hinduism beleives in naam simran:

source: http://spirits_quest.tripod.com/Sos_SSY.htm

* Surat-Shabda Yoga

This is the complete ‘mother’ yoga of Spirituality which is comprehensive and all-encompassing of all other yogas. It has 3 components: 1. ‘Remembrance’ (‘Sumiran’) of the verbalizable 5 names of the ‘Dhanis’ (rulers) of the 5 inner kingdoms or planes, in sequence. The purpose is to still the mind, which is like an ever-active monkey. By repetition of these names with the ‘tongue of thought’, mind is distracted from forming thoughts other than that of God, much as the proverbial genie is controlled by repeatedly climbing a pole up and down. 2. Concentration on inner Light (‘Dhyana’), which commences as soon as Sumiran matures. These two exercises use the spiritual faculty of ‘Nirat’ or ‘inner vision’. By this, the attention is anchored and does not slip. 3. Concentration on inner Sound (‘Bhajan’ or ‘Kirtan’) which permits the spirit to rise and travel in the inner domains

- Ramayana talks about importance of guru where ram chandar himself took guru dikhya/gurmantar from yog vaishat ji.

- Advait Vedanta- also beleive world is created in rajo, tamo, satogunas, beleive in jagrath, supana, sukhopat and turiya avastha that gurbani have talked many times.

- Gangka papan recited on naam- ram given by her gurdev.

Sufi orders beleive in the concept of murid and murshid, they beleive in naam simran. Here sufi saints put this whole spiritual journey into 7 valleys:

-

1. Valley of Search(Wadde-a-Tallash)- search for murshid.

2. Valley of Love (Wadee-a-Ishaq)

3. Valley of Knowledge (Wadeea-Marfat)

4. Valley of meditation or Ibadat (Wadee-a-Mehveat)

5. Valley of Unity (Wadee-Wehdeeat)

6. Valley of Bliss (Wadee-a-Noor or Wadee-a-Hairam)

7. Valley of merger in God or Allah (Wadee-A-Finah-Fillah)

Sufi dont beleive in the concept of shariat, they belive all dharam has four stages and they beleive the real search starts above shariat. Thats what baba farid realized after 30 years of shariat tapasa.

Here are levels adapted by all the dharam, meaning is same, different words- ie- in sikhi- dharam khand, gyan khand, saram khand, karam khand and sachkhand/turiya, in hinduism - some of these dharam stages are divided into 4 stages - jagrath, suapan, sukhopat, turiya and some orders of hinduism have divided them stages into seven [good wish, good consideration, tanun mansa, satvapti, asanskhit, padarth, turiya avastha]- :

Sufis beleive all dharam have four stages.

1. Shariat Rituals

2. Trikat - the way of worship for inner mind's purification

3. Marfat means knowledge

4. Hakikat- means realization of supreme reality.

All the BHagats you mentioned above, did come from a Muslim and Hindu Background.

But later on in their lives their religion was no more ISLAM or Hindu Maat...

it was Prema Bhagti, Naam Marag.

If you look at bhagats customs and devotions they were pretty much influenced by hinduism, some islam however they were above from shariat- they were in trikat, marfat and hakikat realms of their dharam respectivately.

bhagats which are included in sri guru granth sahib ji didnt follow socio-religious boundaries of their own dharam - 1st stage - shariat of(ie- islam, hinduism/) they belong to trikat, marfat, and hakikat

All the bhagats which are included in sri guru granth sahib ji were jevan mukht, they didnt belong to any specific dharam, they were not hard core followers of hindu panth nor they were rehitdhari khalsa, they were all almast fakirs who didnt gave two hoots of shariat layer of the dharam.

Budhist don't believe in God at all....they believe in Budha...how can he be a Guru, when he say God doesn't even exist.They believe the MIND is God, and you merge with it.They believe in Meditation but not in NAAM of the Lord.

They are able to open their Dasam Duar thru meditation and gain accult powers, but they never experience Amrit Rass...Charan Kamal Ki Mauj.

You been misinformed regarding buddhist.

when devotee's went to mahatama buddha and asked him about Akaal..he smiled....didn't say anything from that point sect of atheist buddhist started because they thought "buddha" smiled because there is no God but only nirvana.

When you ask other buddhist though, they say he smiled because there is nothing to tell....vahiguroo is soo beautiful and full pormanand that when you think of him....no words can explain him fully 100%...!

I wouldnt comment on their nirvana, since i havent been there i wont comment, if you think you have a high state to judge their avastha, dhan dhan to you bro.

How is Ganka a hindu?

when most hindus when they say RAAM they are actually refering to Raam chander and not RAAM(the one formless who is blended in All),When Ganka uttered Raam she didn't put her DHIAN on Raam Chander but solely on the true formless RAAM.

At first she thought the parrot, while teaching the parrot she repeated RAAM RAAM endlessly to educate the parrot, when she repeated RAAM RAAM and heard in continously she felt ANAND...from there she started her Bhagti.

Not all hindus when they do simran of raam refers to ram chandar ji:

Here are antriv arths of Raam which many hindu orders beleive in:

It is of Sanskrit origin, and its meaning is "pleasing; supreme".

There is NO Guru after Guru Nanak Dev Sahib, He is the the SUPREME Guru in Kalyug.

True statement when we look at from the context of guru being highest avtar in kalyug. However from the context of gyan- Guru is referred to anyone who can bring ignorant one from darkness to enlightment, as gurbani have used three different context of satguru. As i mentioned above with an link provided so others can read.

Dass doen't know what your Panj told you regarding this,

but Jatheybandees like Damdami Taksal, AKJ, Bhai Bidhi Chand Taksal in their amrit sanchars organized by them inform the Abhilakhis regarding this rehit vert clearly.

Dass is just following what The Panj Piarey told us during amrit sanchar.

Dass doesn't think it is something WISE to question the rehit given by Panj Piarey as you do so. If someone who is not a Sikh, but insist to offer langgar sewa to us.Then there is noting wrong in taking fruits from then, as fruits don't need to be cooked as they go naturally.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Descendents of Sai Mian Mir who was a Sufi Pir are still alive till today.

Dass meet Makhdoom Syed Chand Pir Qadri, 19th descendent of Sai Mian Mir, when he came down to where dass lives.His picture is below.(got it from online, after dass did a search)Hez the one with white pagh and beard.Just as how the sufis dress up.

In one of the pictures, you can see the mala of Guru Arjan dev sahib jee, which guru sahib gave as a gift to Sai Mian mir ji.

We all know how close Sai Mia Mir was to Guru Arjan Dev jee.

Here are some facts Makhdoom Syed Chand naratated,

whenever Guru Sahib came to Lahore Guru Sahib stayed with Sai Mian Mir.There was once Guru Sahib even stayed for 6 months with with Sai Mia Mir ji.

A freind of dass asked Makhdoom Syed Chand if Sain Mian Mir consumed meat..since they are muslims..his answer was YESS.He said, shariat allows them to do so according to the HALAL method.

Sai Mian Mir jee, prepared DIFFERENT utensils to be used for Guru Arjan Dev Sahib ji for cooking and eating food from.Guru Sahib always had Sikhs with him when he travelled, so they cooked Guru Sahibs and their own langgar.Whenever Guru Sahib and his sikhs stayed over with Sai Mian Mir ji, these utenstils were used to cook and eat langgar from.

When GUru Hargobind Sahib Maharaj was on gurgadhi, even when GURU SAHIB visited Sai Mian MIr ji, these SAME UTENSILS WERE USED.

The pictures of these utensils relics is provided below.Which was taken when they were down here.

Even different utensils were used to cook food for Guru Arjan Dev ji and Guru Sahib’s Sikh sewadars, the question of food coooked by servants(non-sikh) of Sai Mia Mir just doesn't arise!!!!!

So this PROVES, Sikhs and Guru Sahib himself didn't take food cooked from those who were not Sikhs.

This event was also reported in the local newspaper.Besides the utensils used by Guru Sahib, they also had many other relics with them.This is the news article:

http://www.bernama.com/bernama/v3/news_lite.php?id=239270

Gurparsad

I m in full agreement with you that ablikhes/jaigasso should try not to take food from nirgura if thats certain rehat maryada for jatha says. However, sri akaal takth maryada is supreme, we should be careful when we promoting jatha beleifs not to make jatha beleifs as supreme authority of whole khalsa panth. I dont care who you are, takth maryada are supreme, besides rehits like these are only for begineer students not for teachers. For eg- when you take an math exam, have you ever seen math teacher doing an exam with you?

If you wish to to suggest that guru's didnt take food from nirgurae, thats complete bullocks. Guru's were paratma themselves in sargun form, they came in this world not to limit themselves by not taking food from others who didnt amrit chak in course of being afraid somehow this will get their name kaamiya effected. What you say to the sakhi? when sri guru nanak dev ji took langar from gareeb instead of rich seth, to prove it further he squeeze roti made by gareeb and milk came out and he squeezed roti from rich seeth, blood came out ?

Also my previous post suggested that there are three types of bhramgyanis-

1. Mastane: Intoxicated ones through remembrance get themselves merged with Almighty(Vahiguroo). More carefree un-attached will boldly function. Do not reveal their secret. Talk in Mysterious tone. Very few rarely come to understand. Have no time to teach common people. Always remain lost in spiritual contemplation. Some rare persons can take benefit from them.

2. Divane- Madhin lover remain intoxicated in God's love but give out sometime such inner secret that proves a source of life for the seekers, who after having themselves proven worth in their sight are also able to colour others in God's Love.

3. Daane- The wise ones who live according to what they preach and talk in understandable tone which benefits all and hearing which people renounce evil deeds. They always treat the path of truth and are eager for welfare of one and all.

Not all bhramgyanis are same, baba thakur singh ji may have not taken food from nirguraie, however sant isher singh ji rara sahib wale did, why? it didnt effect them. Not that i m saying baba thakur singh ji was any less avastha wale than sant isher singh ji rara sahib, i m saying avastha is same, nature are different. For eg- some gursikhs after reaching bhramgyani follow strict rehit so that their students go astray however some go fully almast(see picture of sant attar singh ji blelow), their avastha is same.

Don't try to judge Guru's/ bhramgyanis/gursikhs by your own little standars you will miserably fail.

Lets take an example see how you react, i see you have a picture of dhan dhan sant attar singh ji maustanewale. Here is the picture of them being almast with no kirpan, what you say to that? are you going to get up and start judging him by your own little standars that he broke the rehit and should have been gone to peshi.

Here is another one, taken from gyani thakur singh ji damdami taksal- patiala wale narrating an sakhi of mahapursh who was very close with sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale.

gyani ji shares an sakhi once in ludhiana, there was gurmukh/mahapursh bhramgyani saint named- baba ban batta. Baba ji always used to hold an ban(arrow) and wear khadar cloth to cover up and all day used to wander around like mastna in the village .

In close by village, there was another female saint bhramgyani - named Chando. Chando also used to wander around naked in the village. Everyone respected her, they all knew she was very high elevated saint. When baba ban batta came in her village, saint chando quickly get a cloth from someone to cover herself and bow down(matha taiked) to baba ban batta. Upon this incident, one shopkeeper was suprised to see this incident and asked her, why you cover yourself only when he comes not other times you don't feel shy infront of us.

She replied in carefree tone, are you people even bandaie/males? you people are still istraie roop (wives) roop. Only baba ban batta is purkh(real mard/man) because he is bhram gyani. He did bhagti of that akaal purkh that akaal purkh attributes came in him. He also became purkh..

Conclusion of this debate:

- sri akaal takth maryada is supreme, we should be careful when we promoting jatha beleifs not to make jatha beleifs as supreme authority. I dont care who you are, takth maryada are supreme, also Bibek of not partaking food from nirgura are for begineers/jaigaso like us, it all depends what your panj pyares have told you, if this is what they have told you- keep up good work but dont try to impose it on others and call it as maryada of khalsa panth. I dont recall any of my panj pyares told me to have this kinda bibekta.

- Its no proven fact that taking food from nirgura effects your naam kaamiya if that was case you might as well stopped travelling in buses or roads where others smoke or walk pass beside them and stop using public bathrooms, stop using public bathroom tiolet papers, you are inhaling the smoke, bad air from who are nirguraie everyday, why not stop that too in afraid that it sucks out naam kaamiya out of you.

- Irony is people who beleives in this bibekta try to play the game card of nirgura term used in gurbani which according to gurbani is anyone who doesnt have a guru is nirgura not just sikhs because guru updesh is given to everyone regarding importance of guru and guru mantar. Guru maharaj ji is giving updesh to whole humanity how important is to get guru and gurmantar, get it from gyanvan guru, guru have never imposed that only khalsa/sikh dharam have valid satguru's rest are all fake if this was a case, guru's would never included bhagata bani who were students of their respective guru's.

However such people who beleive in this kinda bibekta define their own term of nirgura limiting to anyone who didnt took khanda da amrit from khalsa panth or their elite group. Such people have attempted to capture sri guru nanak dev parkash into their little box of standards but they fail miserably. They may be able to segegerate themselves as elite group, but they never will be able to segegerate whole sri guru nanak dev ji parkash and sanjha updesh for this humanity.

my last post on this topic.

stay in chardi-kalah