New Article: Bibek

[chatrik]

- However, updesh of guru is sanjha to everyone not just sikhs (as gurbani mentions- updesh is sanjha to everyone- khatri, bhramin, sudar), guru have never imposed that only khalsa/sikh dharam have valid satguru's rest are all fake if this was a case, guru's would never included bhagata bani who were students of their respective guru's.

To back up above claim, please look at my post on three different context of satguru mentioned in gurbani- one is referred to akaal purkh, second is referred to our satguru sahiban, third is referred to bhagat's guru as satguru, there is enough evidence to suggest that in gurbani, read the below link to look into that further:

http://www.sikhsangat.com/content-page/299...urbani/page/36/

1.Saying Krishna has the same avastha as Guru Nanak....clearly show you follow DERAVADS.I have heard a katha of Baba Gurbachan SIngh on those gurbani lines.....and its CLEARLY the opposite

You use Faridkot Teeka to prove our version of believes....however I find this teeka is not acurate in all of its facts.

2.Bijla has provided a STRONG reply to you manmat views:

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?s=&amp...st&p=280564

What a pile of bullocks, there are many hindu orders along with sufi orders beleive in the concept of guru/gurmantra, before i go further to point which orders, I want you to ponder upon two terms- orgin and meaning of guru-shish in sansktrit and murshid(guru)/murid(sikh)* you be suprised. This guru-shish(sikh) relationship wasnt started/newly invented by our guru sahiban but its been there since anadi.Even the term sikh came from sanskrit.

Prove it, that they believe in having a Guru.

Then PROVE IT, that their Guru has the same ability of a TRUE Guru.

here is the meaning of guru according to damdami taksal, and other samparda, quoting from gyani thakur singh ji katha on japji sahib- here sri guru nanak dev ji explaining arth of guru to sidhas:

Gur means Chaitan saroop(exist everywhere/sarab vaipakh yet non-existent nirgun).

Gu means agyan daie hanraie(darkness because of ignorance) and r/ru means light. Bringing being from darkness to light is called Gur/ru.

Gur akhar derived from Gir Akhar. Gir means Negating. eg- guru negates sikh gyan (three context of guru which gurbani talks about check the above link).

1. Murid: First are those who have taken intiation from their musrhid and have faith in their Murid, sometimes they do seva of them and sometimes they back off, still in dubta.

2. Murid Eh Sadik/Sidki Sikh/Sanmukh Sikh: Second are those who have gained full sidak and their mind never wanders around in vishaie/vikara/vices and have full faith and devotion.

3. Murid Eh Fidai- Third are those who have given tan, man, dhan for service of their murshid bachans.

- Bhagvat gita talks about how krishan maharaj gave atamik updesh to arjuna regarding vahiguroo.

- Just like sikhs have ongkar, hindus also have om- Om/Aum isn't just interpreted as Trimurti, it also is interpreted as the three states of being:

A = waking state

U = dreaming state

M = sleeping/unconscious state

And the dot above the letter "m" is the anusvara, which is a heavy nasal sound.The anusvara (Gurmukhi: tippee or bindi) represents the Turiya state, beyond the Traigun. "Mandukya Upanishad" is an authority on Om

- Here are other orders of hinduism beleives in naam simran:

source: http://spirits_quest.tripod.com/Sos_SSY.htm

* Surat-Shabda Yoga

This is the complete ‘mother’ yoga of Spirituality which is comprehensive and all-encompassing of all other yogas. It has 3 components: 1. ‘Remembrance’ (‘Sumiran’) of the verbalizable 5 names of the ‘Dhanis’ (rulers) of the 5 inner kingdoms or planes, in sequence. The purpose is to still the mind, which is like an ever-active monkey. By repetition of these names with the ‘tongue of thought’, mind is distracted from forming thoughts other than that of God, much as the proverbial genie is controlled by repeatedly climbing a pole up and down. 2. Concentration on inner Light (‘Dhyana’), which commences as soon as Sumiran matures. These two exercises use the spiritual faculty of ‘Nirat’ or ‘inner vision’. By this, the attention is anchored and does not slip. 3. Concentration on inner Sound (‘Bhajan’ or ‘Kirtan’) which permits the spirit to rise and travel in the inner domains

- Ramayana talks about importance of guru where ram chandar himself took guru dikhya/gurmantar from yog vaishat ji.

- Advait Vedanta- also beleive world is created in rajo, tamo, satogunas, beleive in jagrath, supana, sukhopat and turiya avastha that gurbani have talked many times.

- Gangka papan recited on naam- ram given by her gurdev.

Sufi orders beleive in the concept of murid and murshid, they beleive in naam simran. Here sufi saints put this whole spiritual journey into 7 valleys:

-

1. Valley of Search(Wadde-a-Tallash)- search for murshid.

2. Valley of Love (Wadee-a-Ishaq)

3. Valley of Knowledge (Wadeea-Marfat)

4. Valley of meditation or Ibadat (Wadee-a-Mehveat)

5. Valley of Unity (Wadee-Wehdeeat)

6. Valley of Bliss (Wadee-a-Noor or Wadee-a-Hairam)

7. Valley of merger in God or Allah (Wadee-A-Finah-Fillah)

Sufi dont beleive in the concept of shariat, they belive all dharam has four stages and they beleive the real search starts above shariat. Thats what baba farid realized after 30 years of shariat tapasa.

Here are levels adapted by all the dharam, meaning is same, different words- ie- in sikhi- dharam khand, gyan khand, saram khand, karam khand and sachkhand/turiya, in hinduism - some of these dharam stages are divided into 4 stages - jagrath, suapan, sukhopat, turiya and some orders of hinduism have divided them stages into seven [good wish, good consideration, tanun mansa, satvapti, asanskhit, padarth, turiya avastha]- :

Sufis beleive all dharam have four stages.

1. Shariat Rituals

2. Trikat - the way of worship for inner mind's purification

3. Marfat means knowledge

4. Hakikat- means realization of supreme reality.

If you look at bhagats customs and devotions they were pretty much influenced by hinduism, some islam however they were above from shariat- they were in trikat, marfat and hakikat realms of their dharam respectivately.

bhagats which are included in sri guru granth sahib ji didnt follow socio-religious boundaries of their own dharam - 1st stage - shariat of(ie- islam, hinduism/) they belong to trikat, marfat, and hakikat

All the bhagats which are included in sri guru granth sahib ji were jevan mukht, they didnt belong to any specific dharam, they were not hard core followers of hindu panth nor they were rehitdhari khalsa, they were all almast fakirs who didnt gave two hoots of shariat layer of the dharam.

You been misinformed regarding buddhist.

when devotee's went to mahatama buddha and asked him about Akaal..he smiled....didn't say anything from that point sect of atheist buddhist started because they thought "buddha" smiled because there is no God but only nirvana.

When you ask other buddhist though, they say he smiled because there is nothing to tell....vahiguroo is soo beautiful and full pormanand that when you think of him....no words can explain him fully 100%...!

I wouldnt comment on their nirvana, since i havent been there i wont comment, if you think you have a high state to judge their avastha, dhan dhan to you bro.

Not all hindus when they do simran of raam refers to ram chandar ji:

Here are antriv arths of Raam which many hindu orders beleive in:

It is of Sanskrit origin, and its meaning is "pleasing; supreme".

Only some points are acurate...OTHERWISE:

1.We are talking about BIBEK.....and you jump to the whole nonsense above^^^^^^^!

Proves nothing either.

2.You have NO EVIDENCE from GURBANI to even prove any of the above as true.

3.You intellect clearly depends on typical DERA views, as only DERAVAADS believe in things above^^^^.

And as ussually it not based on gurbani.

4.Your inability to stick to the topic BIBEK and differ it to other faiths also shows you are out of facts and points, unable to provide relevant points according to GURMAT on Bibek.

I m in full agreement with you that ablikhes/jaigasso should try not to take food from nirgura if thats certain rehat maryada for jatha says. However, sri akaal takth maryada is supreme, we should be careful when we promoting jatha beleifs not to make jatha beleifs as supreme authority of whole khalsa panth. I dont care who you are, takth maryada are supreme, besides rehits like these are only for begineer students not for teachers. For eg- when you take an math exam, have you ever seen math teacher doing an exam with you?

If you wish to to suggest that guru's didnt take food from nirgurae, thats complete bullocks. Guru's were paratma themselves in sargun form, they came in this world not to limit themselves by not taking food from others who didnt amrit chak in course of being afraid somehow this will get their name kaamiya effected. What you say to the sakhi? when sri guru nanak dev ji took langar from gareeb instead of rich seth, to prove it further he squeeze roti made by gareeb and milk came out and he squeezed roti from rich seeth, blood came out ?

Also my previous post suggested that there are three types of bhramgyanis-

1. Mastane: Intoxicated ones through remembrance get themselves merged with Almighty(Vahiguroo). More carefree un-attached will boldly function. Do not reveal their secret. Talk in Mysterious tone. Very few rarely come to understand. Have no time to teach common people. Always remain lost in spiritual contemplation. Some rare persons can take benefit from them.

2. Divane- Madhin lover remain intoxicated in God's love but give out sometime such inner secret that proves a source of life for the seekers, who after having themselves proven worth in their sight are also able to colour others in God's Love.

3. Daane- The wise ones who live according to what they preach and talk in understandable tone which benefits all and hearing which people renounce evil deeds. They always treat the path of truth and are eager for welfare of one and all.

Not all bhramgyanis are same, baba thakur singh ji may have not taken food from nirguraie, however sant isher singh ji rara sahib wale did, why? it didnt effect them. Not that i m saying baba thakur singh ji was any less avastha wale than sant isher singh ji rara sahib, i m saying avastha is same, nature are different. For eg- some gursikhs after reaching bhramgyani follow strict rehit so that their students go astray however some go fully almast(see picture of sant attar singh ji blelow), their avastha is same.

Don't try to judge Guru's/ bhramgyanis/gursikhs by your own little standars you will miserably fail.

Lets take an example see how you react, i see you have a picture of dhan dhan sant attar singh ji maustanewale. Here is the picture of them being almast with no kirpan, what you say to that? are you going to get up and start judging him by your own little standars that he broke the rehit and should have been gone to peshi.

How do u know his Kerpan is not there?

His tummy is quite big...

It can be in his laps...?

or maybe the he is resting his hand ON IT?, makes us unable to to see it?

maybe he left his gatra loose down under his tummy and the keerpan can be at the side behind ,OR the view maybe protected by his legs....OR the keerpan is at the back with the gatra loose down under his tummy(as we can't see it).

There are so many possibilities....can you PROVE any of them to be untrue??

If he didn't keep his keerpa with him as YOU claim....then this matter is between HIM and GURU GOBIND SINGH SAHIB MAHARAJ.

Dass just respects him for his Naam Kamaye.

You and Dass have no right to comment on it.(There is something called...MIND YOUR OWN BIZNEZ....ever heard of it?)

Personally, If dass was alive back then..then dass will gather another 4 singhs.....in the form of five singh we would QUESTION HIM regarding this matter.

other than that......

1.what you have to offer is just MERE WORDS...

Mere words you sat and typed which hold no Significant.

Because you have NO EVIDENCE to provide from GUrbani or rehitnamehs.

Conclusion of this debate:

- sri akaal takth maryada is supreme, we should be careful when we promoting jatha beleifs not to make jatha beleifs as supreme authority. I dont care who you are, takth maryada are supreme, also Bibek of not partaking food from nirgura are for begineers/jaigaso like us, it all depends what your panj pyares have told you, if this is what they have told you- keep up good work but dont try to impose it on others and call it as maryada of khalsa panth. I dont recall any of my panj pyares told me to have this kinda bibekta.

- Its no proven fact that taking food from nirgura effects your naam kaamiya if that was case you might as well stopped travelling in buses or roads where others smoke or walk pass beside them and stop using public bathrooms, stop using public bathroom tiolet papers, you are inhaling the smoke, bad air from who are nirguraie everyday, why not stop that too in afraid that it sucks out naam kaamiya out of you.

- Irony is people who beleives in this bibekta try to play the game card of nirgura term used in gurbani which according to gurbani is anyone who doesnt have a guru is nirgura not just sikhs because guru updesh is given to everyone regarding importance of guru and guru mantar. Guru maharaj ji is giving updesh to whole humanity how important is to get guru and gurmantar, get it from gyanvan guru, guru have never imposed that only khalsa/sikh dharam have valid satguru's rest are all fake if this was a case, guru's would never included bhagata bani who were students of their respective guru's.

However such people who beleive in this kinda bibekta define their own term of nirgura limiting to anyone who didnt took khanda da amrit from khalsa panth or their elite group. Such people have attempted to capture sri guru nanak dev parkash into their little box of standards but they fail miserably. They may be able to segegerate themselves as elite group, but they never will be able to segegerate whole sri guru nanak dev ji parkash and sanjha updesh for this humanity.

First of all....80% of your post had nothing to do with BIBEK......only 20% relates to BIBEK....and the 20% u use are also very weak points with NO EVIDENCE just based on your manmat.

The CONCLUSION:

1.NO evidence from Gurbani or any rehitnameh, shows that your views are limited to the DERA YOU BELIEVE IN.

2.Physical bibek rehit is only for Food, why?

Because food consumed goes into us, our body get energy PROVIDED by the food we eat, and this energy is used for our daily activities.For Naam Abhiyasi this energy from food is used to do Naam Simran. So where this enegy to do Naam Abhiyaas comes from, does matter and effect our Bibek Budhi and concentration.Our Naam is not effected but our BIBEK BUDHI and CONCENTRATION is.

will NOT bother to explain further .....as your mind is totally shut down, and can only digest information coming from a DERA.

When you depend your intellect on your dera/Baba solely, it not surprising you have the INABLITY to use your Bibek Budhi.

3.IN Gurmat, when it comes to Guru Sahibs Hukam....logic has no place....just like how you question bibek rehit.....

...otherwise we are being just like the 2 sons of Guru Nanak Dev jee.They never gained anything.

Bhai Lehna(Guru Angad dev ji) accepted EVERY hukam given....thus he became the 2nd NANAK.

4. Dass only agrees with a few points presented by you, as they are according to gurmat.Otherwise, 90% of your post was just based on manmat.

5.From what dass see's namstang, you can only accept what YOUR DERA/baba tells you ...and obey all his teaching BLINDLY without any proper reaserch....not a single gurbani quote to prove any of your facts

Most deravads INVENTED their own maryada..... is not totaly based on Gurbani and Rehitnameh.

.....but you can't digest hukams from Gurbani and guidelines by Rehitnameh written by Gursikhs from Guru Sahibs time for the future generation like ours?

you do not even mind to hesitate to question the dodgy babas?

6.We are not forcing anyone to keep this rehit.There is no use for keeping this rehit IF Amrit wela is not performed in our daily lives, there is no humility, and a minimum of 2.5 hours of Abhiyass everyday.

If you dont do as above, then its fine for you to NOT KEEP BIBEK.As it will be of no use.

7.We have provided EVIDENCE from Gurbani, Rehitnameh,JEEWAN OF TRUE KHALSA Gursikhs and also some facts about Guru Sahib and Sikhs not consuming food from Non-Sikhs.

The sangat can decide for themself...dass and Singhni Miripiri provided enough evidence on this BIBEK REHIT.

What you have to offer is just mere arguement of words.

You see the difference?

what you have to offer is just MERE WORDS........

And this rehit isn't promoted in any Jatheybandee, it is clearly mentioned in Rehitnamehs

If the BABA/DERA you believe in don't believe in keeping this rehit, this doesn't mean this Bibek rehit doesn't exist or is not to be kept for.

gurparsad

[N30S1NGH]

1. Let sangat decide in other thread who have taken asra of gurbani and who have taken asra of manmat when i mentioned satguru having more than one context and status of krishan maharaj in gurbani by using gurbani and bhai gurdas ji varan.

http://www.sikhsangat.com/content-page/299...urbani/page/36/

2. Sikhi is not about one line translations you samagams boys like to beleive, all of the samparda including taksal beleived in gurbani had more than one interpertation that is not usually one line. Here are layers just to give you idea- vikyaaran arth, uthanka arth, antriv/adahatam art. No wonder you guys are stuck in vikayaran arth. Vikayaran arths can be applied to normal granths but not sri guru granth sahib ji in essence.

3. Faridkot teeka you accusing of not being accurate is made by 52 nirmale sikh scholars who spent all their life, doing khoj of gurbani, what you people have done? only one line translations, teekars you are accusing of not being accurate are from the same samparda where scholars like- baba isher singh ji kalyugwale came up with teeka of 500 spiritual arths of "Vahiguroo" mantar. You guys cannot even accept meaning of vahiguroo mantar in bhai gurdas ji varan calling it manmat because it usues yugs, what you guys have done- promote katha is manmat, doing vichar is manmat, gurbani is straight fwd can be understood by few samagams here and there with sikhitothemax being authority translations of gurbani.

read about this teeka dont start rejecting the whole teekas just because it challenges your shariatsikhi:

http://www.thesikhencyclopedia.com/sikh-sc...ot-tika-10.html

4. And I also encourage you too question baba attar singh ji if you there that time, he probably taken dubta out of your mind that sikhi is not black and white.

5. What evidence you provided from gurbani. Nothing, gurbani you quote talking about not to keep bad sangat who are Cẖorā jārā randī¬ā kutṇī¬ā ḏībāṇ.

Thieves, adulterers, prostitutes and pimps,

you think people who havent amrit are all prositutes, theives,adulters, pimps how dare you ? they might be preparing for the path for all you know. I cannot beleive the level of hypocrisy, stop being soo judgemental.

If you wish to use rehitnamas over gurbani, thats your choice. I follow rehit of sri akaal takth sahib not jatha who pick and choose from gurbani to suit their own needs. You people are quoting from rehitnamas,

Bhai dya singh ji in his rehitnama stated that its quite alright for khalsa to do seva in the panth and adapt lifestyle/diet of either- rajoguni(gristhi sikh-life of an householder), tamoguni(fearless warriors-nihangs) or satoguni(sadhu leaving as virakat/celibate/nirmal/sevapanthi sant mandali). and here we are fighting over petty issues like meat, outer apperance, kakars.

Obviously you would ignore that because its outright challenges your jatha mindset(black/white rules).

If you use rehitnama to back up your beleif which i respect, i also same rehitnamas which talks about- khalsa can adapt any of three life styles which is used widely in samparda's. I nor you have any right to claim and push this is panthic maryada until is not fully adapted by sri akaal takth sahib.

6. If you accuse me of dera follower so be it, atleast i m not jatha follower who think sikhi is black and white. And there is nothing wwrong with dera.

What does dera mean?

Sikh Dera is a place where dharam gets propagated via puratan oral, religious, spiritual traditions coming from seena basina( tradition from lineages) tracking their lineage way back to Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji and Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj then spread out to puratan bhramgyani/shaaheeds Baba Sri Chand Ji Maharaj, Baba Lakshmi Chand Ji Maharaj, Bhai Mani Singh Ji Maharaj/ Baba Deep Singh Ji Maharaj- Taksal/ Bhai Dya Singh Ji Maharaj/ Bhai Dharam Singh Ji Maharaj/ Bhai Ghaainya Ji Maharaj.

Dera is not a bad word so the word sant, so the word sri mahant, just because few bad apples abuse the word dera doesnt make it bad. For EG- Its like saying ocean is dirty just by seeing off shore kirams, moulds etc but tottaly forget the fact, same ocean has 14 jewels(padaraths).

7. Writing in bold letters doesnt make it gospel truth. Dont come out here and started pushing your jatha maryada as superme maryada for sikhs, there is only one supreme maryada for sikhs which is maryada from takths sahiban. Nothing else/nothing more.