Dasam Granth Parkash?

[Niranjana]

Gur Fateh!

I would like to have the opinions of the forum members on the issue of Dasam Granth and the respect to be accorded to this scripture in terms of performing parkash of this Granth alongside the Sri (Adi) Guru Granth Sahib. I do not wish discuss Sarabloh Granth as this is somewhat more complicated and more specialist matter (maybe address in another thread).

As such, please do come forward and express your opinions, views, facts etc, either personal, historical or in support of any Sampradaya, Jatha or Organisation you may follow. This thread, if we keep personalities away from it (so, by all means, please put your views forward strongly, but let's not get into individual arguments, let the strength of your discussion and facts bear testament), should allow for a good understanding of various points of view on this matter and allow individuals to essentially make their own conclusion upon hearing all sides on this matter.

As we know, Parkash of both Granths was commonplace prior to the Singh Sabha reforms, how did this arise and why was it stopped?

Gur Fateh!

[Japnaam Singh]

How did it arise? Why does that matter? We know for certain that Dasam Granth was not compiled by Guru Gobind Singh Jee. It was collected and put together after Guru Sahib passed away. (I'm not talking about when it was written, I'm talking about when it was "compiled")

Guru Sahib gave Gurgaddi to Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Period.

Who are we to give an equal place to Dasam Granth which was essentially created by man and not by Guru? Its pure manmat - Makes no sense.

PS. Dasam Bani is great, should be respected, worshipped, meditated on, reflected on etc. etc. But only Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee is our Guru.

[Deep Singh]

Niranjana jee,

i have heard this lots of times...that Dasam Granth was kept alongside Sri Guru Granth Sahib. but is there any evidence of this? i mean any historical writings that say so?

don't mind jee..but i know very little about Dasam Granth's history..

[Niranjana]

Sardar Sahibs,

Thanks for your repsonse.

Deep "Viking" Singh, I'll dig out some references for you, however you can probably see some on the Sikh History sites and also in the Sikh Encyclopedia (Harbans Singh).

JapNaam Singh, I agree Guru Jee did not "compile" the Dasam Granth as it presently exists, however it was compiled by Shaheed Bhai Mani Singh (who we can hardly call a Manmukh) on the orders of our respected Mata Ji, from whom we also have hand written Hukam Namas which qualify her authority over the Khalsa Panth at the time, so it is hardly created by a "Manmukh" or "Manmatt".

As to why does it matter? Well, given all the controversy kicking off about this Granth, from total denial to Gur Gaddi and all the variations inbetween, and the historical references to having it in Parkash (as is maintained still in certain Gurdwaras such Hazoor Sahib), clearly show that this 'Maryada' must have come from some where and rather than sit here (as the SGPC have requested us to) and not discuss this, let's educate ourselves, otherwise the likes of the RSS have a feild day with us, since we don't discuss these matters.

As per the emergence of placing the Dasam Granth on par with the Sri Guru Granth, most accounts point towards a Gurmatta agreed by the Khalsa Panth acting collectively as Guru Panth. Now I have personally to see any evidence of this, so those who have please some forward, that said, given that evidence exists showing both Granths in collective parkash, clearly for this to have been commonplace some high level decision (from a collective Panth) must have occurred...

For avoidance of doubt, I am not seeking to argue for

anyone side, which is why I have asked all to contribute and concur that Gurgaddi was given to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

Gur Fateh!

[DhadiMania]

this is summat m confused about. u c @ hajoor sahib n patna sahib u hav dasam granth wit sggs. they take the vak n stuff there as well. so y not @ other gurdwaras? as 4 the dasam granth, guru gobind singh ji wrote them. and m sure under the direction of guru gobind singh, bhai mati das must hav compiled it through maharaj di darshan, how else would bhai sahib no where 2 put each shabad?

[cosmictej]

As long as the Dasarm Granth isnt muta tekhed then its ok, let the Gurdwaras take vak and stuff.

[Deep Singh]

as i have already said i know little about Dasam Granth...what i know is the Banis that are recited through Nitnaam and from dasamgranth.org site, and some more websites. I have heard that there are about 22 different Birs of Dasam Granth and the Panth has not come to one gurmatta yet as to which Bir is authentic. the famous one is perhaps the Patna Sahib Bir...the dasamgranth.org site gives a document from 1897 Report by Khalsa Diwan about the authenticity of Birs.

so perhaps this way the reason that Dasam Granth is not kept alongside Sri Guru Granth Sahib as there is no undertanding of which Bir is authentic (?)

[Niranjana]

Gur Fateh!

Sardar Sahibs, before it leads to an off topic debate, the dasamgranth site is affiliated with Gobind Sadan, which is considered by many to be inaccurate through to totally anti-panthic as per their personal reasoning/understanding. For avoidance of doubt, let’s keep this in mind when referring to this material, however this much said, it is nonetheless reference material to make use of.

The points raised thus far are interesting. Indeed Hazur Sahib, Patna Sahib and others mentioned by Kandola Sahib(a) do keep both the Adi and Dasam Granths collectively. Some people argue that these are the Gurdwaras which retain much puratan maryada, others state that local Hindoo populations have influenced Hazur Sahib and hence Maryada is diluted (when compared to SGPC maryada), then again, Patna Sahib and others mentioned are not in such areas and also retain this practice. Perhaps it is worth considering the origins of these Gurdwaras and Thakts, however let’s not forget the impact of Politics in these affairs.

cosmictej Sahib(a), you indicate that one should not bow down to the Dasam Granth, in which case why have it in parkash next to the (Adi) Guru Granth Sahib in the first place? Why not keep it wrapped up in a respectful place (just as one would with say Bhai Gurdas Jee’s Varan) and bring it out for purposes of Vichaar only? Clearly if parkash is being done on par with Adi Guru Granth Sahib, then is the status not raised to equal, leading to the presently controversial issue of whether it should be regarded as such or not.

The issue that arises here is that the very defining aspects of the Khalsa Panth rest on both Granths given the use

of Bani from both during the preparation of Khanda-da-Paul and the daily nitnem liturgy. This has caused many arguments between the pro-and-anti camps, with the former viewing this as indicative of its status as Gurbani and hence as Guru and the latter expressing a view similar to that of JapNaam Singh in that it should be ‘respected’ but isn’t Gurbani in the same manner as the Adi Guru Granth Sahib.

The problem with both views arising when the pro-view is countered with reference to Gur Gaddi being given to Adi Guru Granth Sahib only, issues surrounding the authenticity of the Dasam Granth and the anti-view countered with reference to the use of Jaap Sahib, Savayae, Chaupai Sahib, Chandi-di-// (Ardas) within key defining events, historical presence and tradition.

Stemming out of the anti-view recently is a more hard-line radical group who totally deny Dasam Granth as bani, amongst these being the infamous Kala Afghana.

Deep Singh Jee raised the question of the authentic Birs, however this problem can also be applied (albeit to a lesser extent, but still evident) to the Adi Guru Granth Sahib –the ongoing position over the Raagmala is a clear example of this.

Those who support the equal treatment often point towards the Kesar Singh Chhibber’s writings, however these are often criticised for the inaccuracies of the dates and other facts.

Gur Fateh!

[Ghulam Singh]

Actually, parkash of dasam ki bani happens sometimes, when parachaks come and do its ucharan.

I think Sri Guru Granth Sahab ji is our guru, dasam ki bani should be treated with respect but in no ways be matha teked like guru ji, unless you have a lot of sharda.

[Pheena]

Deep Singh ji,

i saw a picture of an old painting posted here which had both the Dasm Granth and the Sri Guru Granth Sahib, placed side by side at Harmandir Sahib.

maybe soemone might know what im talking about.