New Member.

[SA6]

Hi Guys! ))))

I am a student from Mumbai, and I chanced on this website while surfing the web. I was a bit surprised by the general anti-Indian sentiment here, so I decided to join in the discussion.

I have many Sikh friends, which is why I am a bit concerned.

Cheers!

welcome to the forum

concerned why :gg:

Well, because Sikhs are generally a very forward-looking and enterprising community, and they have done so much to build modern India.

I was surprised to know that some sikhs want to separate from their own homeland.

[saint-soldier]

Hi Guys! ))))

I am a student from Mumbai, and I chanced on this website while surfing the web. I was a bit surprised by the general anti-Indian sentiment here, so I decided to join in the discussion.

I have many Sikh friends, which is why I am a bit concerned.

Cheers!

welcome to the forum

concerned why :gg:

Well, because Sikhs are generally a very forward-looking and enterprising community, and they have done so much to build modern India.

I was surprised to know that some sikhs want to separate from their own homeland.

True that we are a forward looking community but how can we look forward when no one has been punished for 84, u know mothers still dont know if there kids have been killed by police or are still being kept in jail illegally, while killers are made into politicians and are given top security. More than 30,000 people killed/disappered from 84-96 yet the government acts as if nothing ever happened.... i can go on but you should search it up, if u want i'll give u links to some topics about 84 and other issues faced by sikhs in india...and the main issue here is about us being treated as second class citizens, when we are treated as a community should in there own homeland then the demand for khalistan will stop too.

[SA6]

Thanks for the reply saint-soldier.

I know that India suffers from many problems, and there are variety of criminals roaming the corridors of power in India. However, as citizens of our country, it is our duty to remain united and face these challenges.

I was reading some threads on this forum about the Indian police violence and other such things. It is true that Indian police is very brutal. However, this should not be seen through the narrow prism of religion. There are a variety of problems with the police including corruption, poor training, overworked and low-paid constables, and colonial attitudes.

Regarding the '84 Operation Bluestar, I believe that it was an unfortunate blot on our country, but it was also unavoidable because the militants had to be taken out. I believe that our Chief of Army Staff was himself a Sikh, and he was deeply hurt by what he had to do in order to protect the unity of our country.

Since India is a democracy, our vote is our biggest weapon. I would urge all of you to educate your fellow Sikhs to vote wisely and choose honest candidates. That is the only solution to our problems, in my humble opinion.

Punjab, I believe is suffering from many problems, like most of our states, like female infanticide, reduction in crop-yieids, and of course massive corruption. I have recently attended a seminar which said that Punjab is facing a decrease in crop yieids in the coming years.

If we can improve our justice system, I believe that we can eventually book all the murderers of '84 who instigated the riots.

There are also other facets to the problem, like the fact that the ISI and Pakistani establishment were actively providing support to the Khalistan movement during the late 70s and early 80s. Pakistanis do not care about Sikhs. They were simply bent on destroying the unity of our country so that they have the upper hand.

Remember my friend: United we stand, and divided we fall. If we allow our differences and our misgivings to get the better of us, then the world will continue to take advantage of us.

[saint-soldier]

SA6 i understand what u are saying man and i agree except this thing about militants taking over golden temple is total bullcrap. Sant jarnail singh bhindranwale never took over anything, he had the same right to be in golden temple as u and me. The reason why u think they were militants is because thats what people have been reading from the propaganda papers, and what's written in the papers was/is controlled by the government.

Even some sikhs think sant ji was a militant, if whats written in the papers can trick some sikhs into thinking that militants were in golden temple then imagine the amount of impact it has on people of other religions or people who heard about santji from the newspapers. Think about it logically man, if a ''militant'' had taken over golden temple as the government says, u think we the sikhs would have just kept quiet. You think sikhs who ruled punjab even though we were less than 10% of the population would have needed any government assistance? No. The very first day that person would have been kicked out of there, possibilly beaten to near death by singhs.

But that didnt happen, Why? because sant ji was a great sikh leader not a militant or terrorist that wanted khalistan. He always said that he wished that sikhs remain part of india but it was up to the government to either stop treating sikhs as second class citizens or give us a separate homeland, if u dont believe me then do some research of ur own and you'll find out. He left it up to government to decide what to do and the government made up there own option, which was to teach sikhs a lesson. he was and still is to sikhs what malcolm x and mlk is to african americans. If u understand punjabi watch his interviews and speeches on youtube, he talks about all false info being written in papers at that time.

Let me ask u something, what are your sources that say santji was a militant that took over golden temple? If u have got ur info from these propaganda newspapers, then do some research yourself bro coz u are believing what they want you to believe not whats right.

And about that chief of army, he's not a sikh.

peace

[mskcan]

Well said Saint Soldier Ji, information retrieval and research is very important to form unbiased opinions. Examples of such as Farenheit 9/11 in the US show different perspectives to the reality. Inform and educate about the Truth, otherwise it is always HIS-story. Validated links and references should be used, hopefully someone will post here.

[saint-soldier]

Well said Saint Soldier Ji, information retrieval and research is very important to form unbiased opinions. Examples of such as Farenheit 9/11 in the US show different perspectives to the reality. Inform and educate about the Truth, otherwise it is always HIS-story. Validated links and references should be used, hopefully someone will post here.

Thanks bro, somehow every now and then i say something thats not just total bakwaas :D

[mskcan]

I guess an example includes the following:

please try to find the time to see the following films, to get an appreciation of why Sikhs in general are on the defense to survive. If perhaps we didn't have to struggle to survive all the time, then perhaps we could live our Courageous destiny of being of service:

http://www.dwf-film.com/ - Divided We Fall Sikhs in the aftermath of 9/11

http://americanmadethemovie.com/ - American Made, the treatment of Sikhs

http://www.mrsikhnet.com/index.php/2007/10...eist-the-movie/

- Please watch this and interpret with caution

Also watch loose change:

http://www.loosechange911.com/blog/ - the most popular post 911 film on the web

Also please read the novel "Soft Target"

[SA6]

SA6 i understand what u are saying man and i agree except this thing about militants taking over golden temple is total bullcrap. Sant jarnail singh bhindranwale never took over anything, he had the same right to be in golden temple as u and me. The reason why u think they were militants is because thats what people have been reading from the propaganda papers, and what's written in the papers was/is controlled by the government.

In that case, what motive could the government have to attack the Golden Temple? I mean, it would be a rather stupid thing to simply attack it without reason.

Even some sikhs think sant ji was a militant, if whats written in the papers can trick some sikhs into thinking that militants were in golden temple then imagine the amount of impact it has on people of other religions or people who heard about santji from the newspapers. Think about it logically man, if a ''militant'' had taken over golden temple as the government says, u think we the sikhs would have just kept quiet. You think sikhs who ruled punjab even though we were less than 10% of the population would have needed any government assistance? No. The very first day that person would have been kicked out of there, possibilly beaten to near death by singhs.

But that didnt happen, Why? because sant ji was a great sikh leader not a militant or terrorist that wanted khalistan. He always said that he wished that sikhs remain part of india but it was up to the government to either stop treating sikhs as second class citizens or give us a separate homeland, if u dont believe me then do some research of ur own and you'll find out. He left it up to government to decide what to do and the government made up there own option, which was to teach sikhs a lesson. he was and still is to sikhs what malcolm x and mlk is to african americans. If u understand punjabi watch his interviews and speeches on youtube, he talks about all false info being written in papers at that time.

saint-soldier, Sikhs are among the most prosperous communities in India. You guys have been Prime Minister, Finance Minister, Chief of Army Staff, Chief of Police, you guy have held so many powerful positions in India.

Punjab state is among the richest states in India.

I don't understand why you feel that Sikhs are treated as second-class citizens.

Obviously, I was not even born in 1984 so I cannot be certain, but your average Indian or Hindu has nothing against Sikhs. We consider Sikhism as part of our family.

The Congress and Indira Gandhi played a very dirty game in Punjab indeed, but please understand that the actions of the government had nothing to do with the common people of India.

The Congress has been guilty of a number of misadventures over the years in Sri Lanka, Punjab, Mumbai etc. etc.

All religious groups in India including Hindus, Muslims, Christians have suffered dirty politics and progroms. The only way to defeat these people is to educate ourselves and our communities better so that we don't get fooled by them repeatedly.

Let me ask u something, what are your sources that say santji was a militant that took over golden temple? If u have got ur info from these propaganda newspapers, then do some research yourself bro coz u are believing what they want you to believe not whats right.

My sources are merely the major newspapers of the time including Indian and foreign ones. I believe that they reported the incidents fairly accurately, though the reporting was vague and confused because of the media blackout imposed by Indira Gandhi.

Please go ahead and expose the B*astards of '84 whoever they were, but please don't talk about separation. We have lost enough of our hard-fought land to the Pakistanis and Bangladeshis. It would break my heart if India is divided again.

After all this is your own country.

[saint-soldier]

In that case, what motive could the government have to attack the Golden Temple? I mean, it would be a rather stupid thing to simply attack it without reason.

saint-soldier, Sikhs are among the most prosperous communities in India. You guys have been Prime Minister, Finance Minister, Chief of Army Staff, Chief of Police, you guy have held so many powerful positions in India.

Punjab state is among the richest states in India.

I don't understand why you feel that Sikhs are treated as second-class citizens.

Obviously, I was not even born in 1984 so I cannot be certain, but your average Indian or Hindu has nothing against Sikhs. We consider Sikhism as part of our family.

The Congress and Indira Gandhi played a very dirty game in Punjab indeed, but please understand that the actions of the government had nothing to do with the common people of India.

The Congress has been guilty of a number of misadventures over the years in Sri Lanka, Punjab, Mumbai etc. etc.

All religious groups in India including Hindus, Muslims, Christians have suffered dirty politics and progroms. The only way to defeat these people is to educate ourselves and our communities better so that we don't get fooled by them repeatedly.

My sources are merely the major newspapers of the time including Indian and foreign ones. I believe that they reported the incidents fairly accurately, though the reporting was vague and confused because of the media blackout imposed by Indira Gandhi.

Please go ahead and expose the B*astards of '84 whoever they were, but please don't talk about separation. We have lost enough of our hard-fought land to the Pakistanis and Bangladeshis. It would break my heart if India is divided again.

After all this is your own country.

40 other gurudwaras were attacked at the same time army set foot in golden temple. Tell me was santji also present in 40 other gurudwaras at the same time? and it cant be militants coz your government said only golden temple was taken over by militants. Surely they would have mentioned the other 40 gurughars in the beginning to gain more support from the sikh community. But they didnt, u tell me why?

How can ur sources be accurate if there was a media blackout. There was a media blackout for a reason. Only info that got out was the one government wanted others to hear. Otherwise whats the point of a blackout? As I told u man newspapers are controlled by government, there was a media blackout so that means that theres no way that foreign journalists could write what they saw coz they werent there in the first place, u agree on that dont u? so if they werent there in the first place what could possibilly be there source of info? If u think its other than indian papers and government then please tell me coz i dont see any.

Dont talk about loosing something to sikhs in india bro i can talk about it too. Sikhs have lost there land too. Now land of our gurus is divided into india and pakistan, hows that for loosing land, we lost our sikh empire. u think every sikh that asks for khalistan wants it for no reason. Brother i suggest u look up some issues that sikhs face in our own country, then u should make up ur mind if sikhs need khalistan or not. Coz right now i feel you have only heard one side of a story, unfortunately that story consists of lies.

Theres a reason why sikhs started saying that we are second class citizens, check out the vaisakhi 1978- Nirankari Sikh Clash, injustice to sikhs has been going on long before 84 and continues e.g recent dera clash. I had other info about the injustice too but lost it, so search it up on this forum and i'll give u links soon. and about average citizens not having anything against sikhs, i know that. Our fight was and is against the government not the citizens. Thats one of the many things government did very well, which is to depict khalistan movement as a sikh movement against hindus. When infact it was a movement for punjabis not just sikhs, no doubt what sikhs went through played a major part in it. Khalistan movement was and is not against hindus or other communities but against the government.

and there are i think close to 12 freedom movements going on in india, surely there's something wrong the governemt has been doing. Trust me i want sikhs to remain part of india too but not in exchange for deaths of innocent people.

p.s. ok the most powerful position held by a sikh is the pm chair, tell me was manmohan singh elected by the citizens of india? he became pm so later on that rajiv gandhi dude can become pm. This way sonia gandhi unofficially get to run india now and then we all know one day her son will win the elections. Isnt this apparent to you bro? And being in powerful positions dont mean nothing, i can say the same thing about african americans, obama is running for president that means blacks should be doing good since obama is already in a powerful position. Now that wouldnt be correct, would it? 25 years and we havnt even got an apology for 84 yet.

peace

[mskcan]

Here is a link showing that the UN is hearing the case of the 84 Genocide.

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=38268&hl=

Interestingly, in 1994 during the Rwandan Genocide, on an international scale it has been recognized for the gravity of what happened, as close to 1 million people died.

However, for 1984 although unofficial numbers are at 100000 over the course of the period and later, it has still not been recognized as a Genocide.

What is the difference between the Tutsi's and Hutu's of Rwanda, and that of the Punjabi's and the State of India?

In her book "Left to Tell: Discovering God Amidst the Rwandan Holocaust" Imaculee Ilibigiza talks about the crusade against her people, and the events that occurred all around her. Her story now reaches millions of homes across North America and other parts of the world. People recognize this as a catastrophic event like Phonh Phen and Yugoslavia, and "The Holocaust" of the 20th century, yet Sikhs who are the most visible minority in the world continue to have their voices shunned.

In today's progressive world, the Truth will come out, and as can be seen by the UN's stance against human rights blasphemy against the Sikhs, the Truth will prevail. This is the Nature of the Silent Creator of the Universe, that those who Seek Truth will realise the Truth and remain attached to the hem of the Lord's robes. Many Truth Seekers and Sikhs continue to be exemplary in their fight for human dignity, freedom, and release from Torture, kidnapping, and extortion.

Even great Bhagat Puran Singh who developed the Pingalwara a home for the ill, and lepers spoke out against such actions.

The Sikhs have suffered not 1, not 2, not 3, but 4 significant genocidal attempts against them. Yet their resolves remains high, their Spirits continue to rise in the world. The Western Sikh influence is sweeping the North America and Truth is planted across the world.

Such is the beauty of the Creator Lord...

(Aside: Could individuals who post any arguments, please report references if possible, it is important to attempt to garner an understanding of the True reality of such events)