Sant

[N30S1NGH]

No because Sant (singular) = Guru/Waheguru and Sant/Santan(Plural) = group of people (Sant). More than one person can reach the same avastha, can't they? Every word can have multiple meanings but only one will best fit the context and the meanings must not contradict rest of Gurbani.

No one says Sants do not exist but the discussion here is about using this word as a name title which was not practiced by Guru Sahib or early Sikhs.

I agree with that in many places sant referrers to god and guru in singular form, along with group of people (sant in form sadh sangat) as plural form. But there are many places sant refers to human being as well in singular form.

This where i disagree with you lets have this part that ( there are many places in gurbani sant refers to human being in singular form) as our main discussion-

i will provided three examples not from uthanka not from adhyatamic arths but from vikayaran itself.

- sant prehlad ki peej jin rakhee

Sant(t has unkar) prehlad(d has unkar), when its combined in a quote, its in singular form. Sant in this shabad is visheshan of perlhad.

2nd example from bani from bhagat kabir ji:

Kaie Apraadh Sant hai Kina ||

This above quote is also in singular form not in plural form.

3rd example:

Sant Ka Marg Dharam Ki Pauri Ko Vadbhagi Paaie ||

Ka is in singular form, Ko vadbhagi Pai in this context does not apply to Guru because guru were dharu mukht(vedah mukht karak guravtars). Therefore the above pantiki is also singular.

Once again, Sikh was called Sant because of his avastha and hence was not a name title like these days. Any kaka ji these days puts on white clothes and uses “Sant” title. This is wrong. Sant Samaj doesn’t have all the real sants in it and how do they determine whether one indeed is a Sant?

I agree with you any kaka joe blow banda wears a chola and uses sant title. But the problem is with that scum bag who abuses the title sant but problem is not with title sant itself. We should do parchar to sangat on awareness of such imposters.

Let me ask you, if tom you will see higher trend in people wearing chola's and uses and abuses bhai sahib and gyani title, then what would you do? would u also redefine bhai sahib and gyani term so imposter's cannot use it. Redefining arths in gurbani in sheer insecurity and paranioa is not the solution, solution is parchar..root cause is ignorance the bhed mentality within punjabi community which does upma of something soo much which creates trend of blind followers who follows personality like bheds sometimes unfortunately get exploited by baneras ka thugs and same people who were guilty of doing soo much upma end up doing nindya because they are following others blindly by copying others instead of looking at gyan or getting gyan, they look at how much sangat goes to person and ask for materialstic things instead of acquiring atamgyan from them. Besides if someone does upma or nindiya of real sants it doesnt make difference to them or their state if does they are not real sants...real sant dristhi is sam.

And they never claimed themselves “Sant”. They were not controversial characters in the Panth. Gullible people called them Sants but for Sikhs they are Bhai. Each and every gursikh is at different avastha but higher avastha does not make one superior. Guru Sahib called His Sikhs Bhai and every Sikh was transformed to Sant Sipahi. “Sant” was not a name title.

Sukhmani Sahib – Bhai Randhir Singh Ji writes that Guru Arjan Dev Ji is praising Guru Raamdas Ji and calls Him “Sant”, “Sadh”, “Brahmgyani”. Prof. Sahib Singh’s teeka makes no mention of it. Regardless, it is clear from the meanings that no single individual is being praised. Guru Sahib describes characteristics of a Brahmgyani and this is not a name title to be used.

Claiming themselves as sants in ego and claiming an state of sant after acquiring sant padh/turiya pad to prove an point is two different things. Person shouldn't test who is genuine sant or not based on this claim...they may endanger themselves into path of nindya.

“Sant Samaj” doesn’t have all the sants. How do they determine whether one has become a sant which makes them eligible to become a member? Membership these days is based on clothes, dera, followers and property not avastha. Maan Singh has charges against him and the way he acted in California is not an act of a Sant. If we truly had so many true Sants then the Panth will be in chardee kala.

I agree sant samaj doesn't have all the sants but members of sant samaj are panth dardi and have done sangat of puran bhramgyanis and they are striving to gain the ultimate goal. Yes they are bad apples in sant samaj who were at one point member of sant samaj.

if a Sikh keeps rehat and does naam simran his/her presence will affect others but doesn’t mean they have reached the avastha of a brahmgyani. I know some Sikhs who are not “Sants” but keep rehat and read Bani and many people have started to walk on the path of Sikhi by their sangat. Even little bit of bhagtee can bring ridhi sidhi but that wouldn’t make them a brahmgyani. Guru Sahib is a pooran brahmgyani but not everyone (hill kings etc) could recognize this fact. So no, we cannot know whether one is a brahmgyani or not. However, we can figure out whether they keep rehat or do naam simran but their internal avastha cannot be known by other ordinary people.

I repeat once again, Sants in avastha exist and they may be wearing any type of clothes and working anywhere but use of the “Sant” as a title is wrong especially when it is not bestowed upon by the Panth.

Sant title is always bestowed in the panth...unless you are talking about tat khalsa singh sabha which is only hundred years ago and confusing that as a panth..then its a different story.

If sikh keeps rehat and does naam simran, presence will affect others.. that i agree .. but there are different stages of presence/expereince...one may find positive energy in sangat of naam abhyasi gursikh that is different from amrit dristi/amrit varkha which i was talking about in my previous posts as per gurbani. People according to their karams who are vadbhagai have expereinced amrit dristi of bhramgyani and amrit varkha of bhramgyani..gurbani talks about this.. gurbani is just not full of methaphors or some nice theory, its quite pratical as well.. and those rare people who have expereince this amrit ras/amrit varkha have realized them as bhramgyani at the first glance....there are real life stories of people expereince which could be book in books and when you talk to elders..as i said in my previous post- in sangat of mahapursh you may get drizzle of amrit or whole bit that depends on your karama. One such example of sant waryam singh ji ratwara sahib wale who when they are 8 years old and felt strange sensation in their chakras/dasam dvar in the sangat of bhai sahib bhai randhir singh, sant nand singh ji maharaj, sant attar singh maustneywale and many more mahapursh..when sant waryam singh ji asked bhai sahib bhai randhir singh ji whats happening to him..bhai sahib ji replied and said this is naam amrit ras...But anyway, If this all too complicated or too much work.. just forget about it...if you wishes to test an specific sant(individual) which you have doubts on their sant avastha, simply go to guru maharaj do unconditional ardas from your heart with not even single bit of preconceived notion or judgements towards the individual,after doing ardas, go to the sant, you will find out if he/she is real or fake. If that sant is joti saroop, vahiguroo himself is speaking from him, he/she will clear your doubts/sansas, if his avastha to just chamara, money, wealth, aim to exploit to women then he will not. Its pretty straight forward. If people don't wish to try this even then sorry people don't have much right to criticize real sainthood in sikhism.

Veer jee regarding Sant Attar Singh jee, look at the following book: The Singh Sabha and other socio-religious movements in the punjab (1850-1925) edited by Dr Ganda Singh. 'The Singh Sabha Movement' Prof Teja Singh jee. Other people involved in the Chief Khalsa Diwan was Sant Sangat Singh Kamalia and Bhai Vir Singh jee. Sant Attar became more active when the movement split and was more of an important member in the chief khalsa diwan, along with Bhai Hira Singh raagi they did alot of parchar and kirtan. Also in the book mentioned above you can look at Gurdarshan Singh jees article which also mentions the role that Sant Attar Singh jee played. People like Bhai Charat Singh jee (Bhai Vir Singh jees father) and Bhai kahn Singh jee Nabha played important roles in the Singh Sabha movement, im therefore suprised you find it insulting that Sant Attar Singh jee was associated with these kinds of people and played an important role in the singh sabha lehar, esp when you consider the work of the Gurmat granth parchark sabha which inspired the panth parkash, Twarikh Khalsa, guru granth kosh etc. Im sure you know what the was published in 1897 by the Gurmat Granth Parchark Sabha, it was one of the most important works done in the panth and it was undertaken by the Singh Sabha.

That make sense, i thought v(mr singh) was implying sant attar singh was founder of singh sabha intial lehar which was founded by bhai gurmukh singh to response curroptness in the darbar which started with good intentions but along the way got took over by bhausarias and people who adhere to bhausaria mindset.

[Inder Singh]

Again it is not discussion about status of sants.Please do not divert the real topic.

The issue here is rascal characters like Manjit Sahota and Gurcharan jeonwala facing Baba Hari singh.See the benkcruptcy of their intellect.They are the leaders of kala afghana and Darshan lal sect.I am sure Darshan lal and kala afghana and other cronies who do gur nindya are very much in the same boat.

[N30S1NGH]

Again it is not discussion about status of sants.Please do not divert the real topic.

The issue here is rascal characters like Manjit Sahota and Gurcharan jeonwala facing Baba Hari singh.See the benkcruptcy of their intellect.They are the leaders of kala afghana and Darshan lal sect.I am sure Darshan lal and kala afghana and other cronies who do gur nindya are very much in the same boat.

sorry to interfere inder singh but in case you missed it. Sevadars of this forum have split this topic from original thread- baba hari singh ji exposing missionary..you will find original topic at http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=38269

[ghorandhar]

Veer Namstang jee Sant Attar Singh jee was involved earlier on in the Singh Sabha lehar, however on the death of Gurmukh Singh and many other important sevadhars, various fractions opened, Sant Attar Singh joined the chief khalsa diwan along with Babu Teja Singh Bhasaur who actually did the ardas in the first meeting. It was later that Bhasaur lost the plot. Bhasaur never took over anything, he later created his own group called Panch Khalsa Diwan which came after 1902, but before 1902 bhasaur, sant attar Singh, Bhai Vir Singh jee, Sardar Sundar Singh Majithia etc were all apart of the same group and joined forces on the death of Bhai Gurmurkh Singh, Sir Attar Singh and Bhai Dit Singh.

[Inder Singh]

Veer Namstang jee Sant Attar Singh jee was involved earlier on in the Singh Sabha lehar, however on the death of Gurmukh Singh and many other important sevadhars, various fractions opened, Sant Attar Singh joined the chief khalsa diwan along with Babu Teja Singh Bhasaur who actually did the ardas in the first meeting. It was later that Bhasaur lost the plot. Bhasaur never took over anything, he later created his own group called Panch Khalsa Diwan which came after 1902, but before 1902 bhasaur, sant attar Singh, Bhai Vir Singh jee, Sardar Sundar Singh Majithia etc were all apart of the same group and joined forces on the death of Bhai Gurmurkh Singh, Sir Attar Singh and Bhai Dit Singh.

Sant Attar singh did not join force with anyone.He was not a political man.He was a religious person.

There was a parade in Delhi when King of England took over throne.In that parade maharaja of Patiala took Sant ji to be part of sikh group.When Sant ji passed before Viceroy,viceroy seeing jalal on the face of Sant ji asked who was that man.There sant ji was asked to say something.He sang this shabad

Har saman nahi koi Raja

Let us not bring the great name of sant ji in these mundane affairs of sikhs.He was far above than Gurmukh singh,chief khalsa Diwan etc etc.

[waaheguroo]

Sant attar singh was strongly against moorti puja and firm beleiver in akaal purakh.

At baru sahib bibiyan wear dastaar.

[singh_1983]

regarding the topic.....if Waheguru doesn't want you to see sum1 as a sant - u wont, if Waheguru does - then u will recognise them.....its all Wahegurus hukam....hope u all get wat i mean

regarding the comments about Sant Baba Mann Singh Ji (Pehova Vale) by V, Waaheguroo and Singh Bling...............go and have a look at www.theworldofgurunanak.com and see what seva is being done around the world and yet u criticise

Jus to add.....Sant Baba Mann Singh has organised an akand paat laree where over 200 akand paats have been taking place at the sametime....this has been continous for the last 2 years and babaji has said that it will never stop.....so think about it - 1 akand paat takes about 2 & half days, multiplied by 200 over 2 years...and still goin.....

oh yeah and the reason for these akand paats is to celebrate 300 years of Guru Granth Sahib Ji and for "SARBAT DA PALAA"

just thort id mention what sants are doin for you.....so you can think about what ur doin for them!

[ghorandhar]

Veer Namstang jee Sant Attar Singh jee was involved earlier on in the Singh Sabha lehar, however on the death of Gurmukh Singh and many other important sevadhars, various fractions opened, Sant Attar Singh joined the chief khalsa diwan along with Babu Teja Singh Bhasaur who actually did the ardas in the first meeting. It was later that Bhasaur lost the plot. Bhasaur never took over anything, he later created his own group called Panch Khalsa Diwan which came after 1902, but before 1902 bhasaur, sant attar Singh, Bhai Vir Singh jee, Sardar Sundar Singh Majithia etc were all apart of the same group and joined forces on the death of Bhai Gurmurkh Singh, Sir Attar Singh and Bhai Dit Singh.

Sant Attar singh did not join force with anyone.He was not a political man.He was a religious person.

There was a parade in Delhi when King of England took over throne.In that parade maharaja of Patiala took Sant ji to be part of sikh group.When Sant ji passed before Viceroy,viceroy seeing jalal on the face of Sant ji asked who was that man.There sant ji was asked to say something.He sang this shabad

Har saman nahi koi Raja

Let us not bring the great name of sant ji in these mundane affairs of sikhs.He was far above than Gurmukh singh,chief khalsa Diwan etc etc.

Veer jee I think the shabad is khoo har saman nahee raja (raag Bilawal)

Sant Attar Singh jee place in the Singh Sabha is written in history, if you want to ignore this fact, its up to you.

If standardising the Dasam Granth, removing idols from Harmander Sahib complex, stopping pandits doing weddings, re starting the anand karagh, challenging the Araya Samaj, Christian and Muslim missionaries who were coverting Sikhs, attacking the caste system which was being practiced, getting gurdwaras back from the mahants control, becoming shahid in the fight to free gurdwaras, fighting and going to prision against the ban on kirpans etc etc were all mundane affairs to Sikhs, then ill never no what is important issues. These issues could only be resolved by people like Bhai Vir Singh, Kahn Singh jee Nabha and Sant Attar Singh jee etc.

[V]

As Singhstah earlier on said; I really don't understand why a real sant would even accept a such title. A real sant wouldn't just from otuside say"apa koch nahi hege" but really make sure that no-one "overrespects" them. The example that comes to mind is Nawab Kapur Singh who despite being elected as the jathedar of the Panth, despite doign loads of "leadership-seva" still carried on picking up horsedung.

That is humility an nimarta, where you personally do NOT see yourself and let other people treat you as a sant. When you realize that before parmatma you are nothing, though you are part of him, or infact ARE him; you are still nothing.

A person I would consider very pious in this context is "Bhai" Niranjan Singh; who previously used the title "sant", excellent example of a person wit "sant subha", with a saintly character. I cannot judge his character; but AFTER being bestowed the title of sant, and being treated (and to a certaiin extent 'worshipped' like a sant; he decided to change his 'bhes' and his 'roop' to make people STOP calling him a sant; because he didn't consider himself one.

You are right N30, for a sants JEEVAN it doesn't matter if he's called a sant or or a chatr of Guru Sahib - but he will ALWAYS consider himself as the DUST of the sangats feet, and not just say that he is sangats dhoor, but will not let sangat BOW to him, will not sangat treat him like he is patmatma, because he will realize that he is nothing. Is their such a sant today?

[N30S1NGH]

As Singhstah earlier on said; I really don't understand why a real sant would even accept a such title. A real sant wouldn't just from otuside say"apa koch nahi hege" but really make sure that no-one "overrespects" them. The example that comes to mind is Nawab Kapur Singh who despite being elected as the jathedar of the Panth, despite doign loads of "leadership-seva" still carried on picking up horsedung.

That is humility an nimarta, where you personally do NOT see yourself and let other people treat you as a sant. When you realize that before parmatma you are nothing, though you are part of him, or infact ARE him; you are still nothing.

A person I would consider very pious in this context is "Bhai" Niranjan Singh; who previously used the title "sant", excellent example of a person wit "sant subha", with a saintly character. I cannot judge his character; but AFTER being bestowed the title of sant, and being treated (and to a certaiin extent 'worshipped' like a sant; he decided to change his 'bhes' and his 'roop' to make people STOP calling him a sant; because he didn't consider himself one.

You are right N30, for a sants JEEVAN it doesn't matter if he's called a sant or or a chatr of Guru Sahib - but he will ALWAYS consider himself as the DUST of the sangats feet, and not just say that he is sangats dhoor, but will not let sangat BOW to him, will not sangat treat him like he is patmatma, because he will realize that he is nothing. Is their such a sant today?

This is same dangerous preconceived notions or judgments i was talking about earlier in my previous post... we need to be aware of such mindset..... above quote in bold is your belief and your mindset it has nothing to do with gurmat. Infact in gurbani, sukhmani sahib it clearly talks about status of sant in sikh dharam and how sant should be treated.

Generally sant's do not like people matha taike to them because of their vary nature(search the forum- there are 4 natures of bhramgyanis... But here are the sants personality names:

who had no problem (neither feel pleasure or dislike) while sangat are matha taiking to them-

They were-

- Sant baba Karam singh ji hoti mardan

- Sant baba Jawala Singh Ji Harkhowaley

- Sant baba Sunder Singh Ji Bhindranwale

- Sant baba Attar Singh Ji Mustaneywaley and Reru Sahib

- Sant baba Isher singh ji Nanaksar waley and Rara Sahib

-Sant baba Nand Singh Ji

- Sant baba Mian Singh Ji

- Sant baba Jagjit Singh Ji Harkhowaley

- Sant baba puran singh ji kirochowale

- Sant Mohinder Singh Ji (Nishkham jatha)

- Jathedar baba Chet Singh Ji (Buddha dal)

and there are many more.

You guys wanted to know why they had no problem (neither feel pleasure or dislike) because bhramgyani avastha is turiya/sam avastha. They are above deh.. simply don't care about political correctness crap.

They simply don't care. you can tell sangat once, twice but you have to remember sangat comes in thousands to darshan of them....they get to the point where they simply don't care and they bless them.

One peace of advise: Stop judging Guru Maharaj and Sant Mahapursh by your own twisted preconceived notions and standards. you will miserably fail.

No where - neither in hakumnama nor in gurbani it says- matha taik to real sant is a sin . stop pushing your own beleif as maryada.