Navtej Singh Guggu & Harchand Singh

[Laadli Fauj]

i dint say thy were singh or maha purakhs

what they DID helped out the panth

doesn't make them khalse tho

[buddasingh]

i dint say thy were singh or maha purakhs

what they DID helped out the panth

doesn't make them khalse tho

My comments were not directed to counter yours. Your comments were was just a convenient launching point for discussion. sorry for not making that clearer.

[SaRpAnCh]

i guess its b.c despite his flaws, he did to a great seva for the panth

Here is the reality of seva for he panth…

Phoola was part of a larger movement to kill sikhi.

Phoola’s masters are rolling over in laughter at the irony of how for every one sikh that Phoola got rid of, making these guys hero’s will have 1000 sikhs voluntarily getting rid of their sikhi. Who does more damage?

The courage to kill Phoola, but not enough faith in sikhi and courage to keep kes??

If those who killed Phoola really did it for the Panth, they should immediately humbly state that those who celebrate their image as that of a Sikh hero is insulting Bhai Taru Singh Ji, Guru Gobind Singh Ji…etc.

Also people here should not be giddy over the temporary relief their sense of guilt gets from their own inability to keep kes. This is NOT ABOUT you or I, we are all on the path. However, it is about humility and properly respecting the precious gift of kes and kakkars as part and parcel of sikhi, no matter our personal circumstances.

Stop dissing heros Jinda Sukha were also moneh at one point when they killed vaidya lot ,where as your gyani with full kakkars did not have the anakh to kill the dusht they did ,where as they gyani had kesh they didn't works two ways

[mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan]

give them at least the title of "quami hamdard". meaning those that share the pain with the sikh quam.

they obviously are not gursikhs. but reading about sikhs being hunted by that tyrant made them act, making them people who had feelings for the sikh nation. there have been many non-sikhs who stood alongside the khalsa.

in the big scheme of things, buddasingh, i look at this from another angle:

out of all those mona punjabis who inhabit the punjab and will most definetly inhabit the punjab when a sovereign punjab state is established, a few stand alongside the sikh nation. which, in my view, is a good sign.

the importance of kes and kakaars cannot be downplayed by these two men. why? look at the worship of bhagat singh. out of all the heroes who fought the british for liberation, the countless gursikhs, the gadari baabe, in sikhi saroop, the guy who cut his kesh, was supposedly an athiest, is the guy propped up the most, why?

maybe to promote the comrade belief in punjab? maybe to have sikh youth shave and keep a mustache and wear a hat?

maybe, but it hasn't worked. and i doubt these two men will lead to any confusion in the sikh quam about guru sahib's saroop. if anything, it may get the bhangra crews interested in quami issues. maybe turn on a few light bulbs.

i think many punjabis view the events of the 80s and 90s in punjab as some kind of kattar sikhs vs secularism thing. this may bring about a change in that mindset.

"The courage to kill Phoola, but not enough faith in sikhi and courage to keep kes??"

buddasingh, the same can be asked in the opposite direction, the courage to keep kesh and faith in sikhi, but not enough courage to take out poohla.

we should probably wait for a message from these two men from their own mouths. what was their motivation, etc....

my personal take on these men is, that i have no idea about their sharda for guru sahib. did they ever have the kirpa of reading gurbaani, dong sangat of gursikhs etc? i honestly don't know. does it take courage to keep kesh? i think it takes sharda. does it take sharda to kill someone? no, it takes simple krodh many times, look at the delhi pogroms.

peace.

[buddasingh]

Mklq

You’ve put forth thoughts that I would almost completely agree with. Well said. In taking issue in this thread, my emphasis would be on the collective ignorant view here rather than the current unknown views of the two, with one exception.

I differ with the part about kes and kakkars and do believe that a fundamental responsibility before taking a life is to have a complete understanding of the cause, beyond emotion. If the cause is something they come to understand later, lets hope they come to understand it very well, given their actions.

An extreme analogy to decipher what I’ve said above…Would it be a good deed for a thief to take Phoola’s life in a robbery? Sikhi would say no. For us to celebrate simply because a punjabi shared an emotion and killed a common enemy is a far cry from the kirpa in our guruji’s kirpan.

The identity is a fundamental part of sikhi which has been largely replaced by identification with clan/caste whether it is spoken or not. This is not sikhi. Might as well wear t-shirts that say “Jatt Pride, Hum Pakaay Hindu Haan”.

My quami hamdard is some lonely woman or man in China who may know little about Indian politics, but sees the beauty of my guruji and keeps her kakkars while doing simran at amritvela.

My quami hamdard is a learned hindu or muslim brother who is true to the love in his or her faith, knows about Indian politics, and shares my pain in seeing how those claiming sikhi are destroying it for those sikhs who understand sikhi.

My quami hamdard is my mona brother who I’ve worked with side by side for change…he takes care of the precious gift of sikhi by his beautiful humility in ensuring that guruji’s roop is protected as the image of a sikh above his ego. That is my quami hamdard and sikh inspiration.

Will these men be an inspiration, beyond quami hamdard? Possibly, perhaps I would be honoured to be considered a brother by these men. Sukha and Jinda are perfect examples of inspirations that cause one to pause in judgment. Does it mean they were right not to have kes while claiming sikhi?

Ask them and their answer would make my point. It is their glory that I propose to keep alive.

[mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan]

self edited.

[Mehtab Singh]

i think many punjabis view the events of the 80s and 90s in punjab as some kind of kattar sikhs vs secularism thing. this may bring about a change in that mindset.

GREAT POINT! Now the non-Amritdharis (hair cut clean shaven) Punjabi Sikhs will begin to think that after all it was not about fanatical Amritdharis versus a benevolent government.

"The courage to kill Phoola, but not enough faith in sikhi and courage to keep kes??"

buddasingh, the same can be asked in the opposite direction, the courage to keep kesh and faith in sikhi, but not enough courage to take out poohla.

:wub:

we should probably wait for a message from these two men from their own mouths. what was their motivation, etc....

:TH:

[buddasingh]

....

"The courage to kill Phoola, but not enough faith in sikhi and courage to keep kes??"

buddasingh, the same can be asked in the opposite direction, the courage to keep kesh and faith in sikhi, but not enough courage to take out poohla.

:wub:

....

The qoute above which was part of an excellent post by mklq, makes for a neat twist on words but needs analysis, lest someone equate courage to keep kes and faith in sikhi to the requirement to “take someone out”. If we simply apply logic, the twist on words does not hold water.

The courage to keep kes is a requirement for faith in sikhi.

The courage to kill phoola (assuming it’s courage) is not a requirement for faith in sikhi, regardless of arguable merit in the action.

So asking the question in the opposite direction is NOT a same or similar question.

[guptveer1469]

Poohla committed suicide: Front

Tribune News Service

Amritsar, September 9

The Majha Ex-servicemen Human Rights Front has claimed that Nihang leader Ajit Singh Poohla had committed suicide by setting himself afire as he was in depression. Col G.S. Sandhu, chairman of the front, said here today that as they were very close to solving the murder of four members of Balwinder Singh Jatana’s family, who were burnt alive in 1991 allegedly by Poohla and his men, the Nihang leader had gone in depression fearing the sentence in the case.

Sandhu said there was a need for a probe by an independent agency into the death of Poohla. Refuting the allegations levelled by certain persons that their organisation was behind the killing of Poohla, Sandhu said the front was pursuing the cases against the Nihang leader within the parameters of the law. Taking law into one’s hand could never be justified and the persons responsible for Poohla’s killing must be punished as per law, he added. He also demanded a probe into benami property and bank accounts of Poohla.

lol

what a joke...

[Mehtab Singh]

Times of India News Service

Chandigarh, November 17 1984

The Prime Minister's Office (PMO) has claimed that Prime Minister Mrs Indira Gandhi had committed suicide by consuming an overdose of sleeping pills as she was in depression after a failed love affair with Indian President Gyani Zail Singh. Capt. P.S. Sidhu, head incharge of the PMO, said here today that Mrs Gandhi was very much heart broken and mentally disturbed a few days before she took the extreme step.

Sidhu said there was a need for a probe by a government investigation agency into the death of Mrs Gandhi. Refuting the allegations levelled by certain Sikh organisations being behind her death, Sidhu said the PMO was pursuing the cases against her personal bodyguards Beant Singh and Satwant Singh within the parameters of the law.

Don't freak out! I just made that up! Now tell me how hard is it to fake stuff like that? :1singh1: