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The Laws Of Karma

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Well as Sikhs we believe that all of life is Maya,

thus our actions are performed with the illusion of freewill,

see the mind believes that the world is real and acts accordingly

as in a dream,

in a sense you can say it has fanciful freewill but what is

freewill in a dream which is not in itself real?

the mind thus performs good or bad deeds through the illusory body

because it is attached to the dream ego--the soul suffers the consequences therefrom as is Dharam Raj's rule.

it is better to think of life as a continuum (something that extends over many lives rather than just one) because we are the product of many past births,

so the seeds of past births sprout in this body and we reap them,

if we repeatedly plant the same bad seeds we continually reap the same ill fruit when we are judged.

freewill is a mental capacity, if the state of one's mind at present

is the cause of past tendencies then even the nature of that very capacity

can be seen to be predetermined.

thus our present tendencies and predispositions towards vice and virtue

are the effects of causes from earlier incarnations

so to answer your question,

you could ay that we are judged for misusing the illusory freewill

we falsely believe we possess,

to state it more simply, a thief steals and is punished,

if we are talking about freewill we want to know why he was punished

if the world itself is not real and there is no freewill,

the reason is that because of past lives of low thinking the thief

has become a thief, thus he steals because he is now covetuous by nature,

to go even deeper we could say that he has falsely identified himself with this

false identity and ego (that is his real 'original sin' from which all his other sorrows come),

what's more, ignoring religion he thinks that the world and it's goods are real,

thus he steals them,

now if you kill someone in a dream you won't be punished, but the world is a stage that is like a dream from the perspective of God, yet it is more real than a dream,

it is a stage that people think is real, the freewill to steal that the thief thinks he has is really the product of his past lives of low thinking, to him it is real because he is a limited being--would it be just to excuse him from punishment for not knowing this?

Hope that Helps,

Guru's Grace

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So your saying freewill does not exist and how this life is a predestined fate of our last lives....and thus punishment is according to our past actions.....and how we should therefore view life as a domino effect of past lives.

So lets go to the life where we were first born...ie the very first first first life.......who decided the first act....how could it be predestined on fate of past lives when there was no life before it....

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Very insightful question,

I suggest you read Kabir Sahib's Anurag Sagar

for a full history of the soul's descent from Sach Khand.

Based on Kabir Sahib's discourses therein,

in the begining, billions and billions of souls

emerged from God in Sach Khand, for 60 yugas

they remained there in perfect bliss for millions of years,

When the lower creation was manifested below Sach Khand,

millions and millions of these jivas lost faith in Akal Purakh

and left Sach Khand to go into the lower creation,

(thus the 'original sin' or begining of karma and seperation from the Lord)

These jivas descended lower and lower until they reached earthly incarnation,

now their karma in that first life would have been based on their interactions

in the spheres above earth i.e the causal world etc,

not to mention the 'original sin' of leaving Sach Khand to enter the lower creation

my personal feeling is that since these would have been the first humans they undoutably would have been very primitive and having a low level of mental development, they also would have likely progressed through other lower forms of life

on earth to reach that stage,

now from that first life which was based on their 'fall' from Sach Khand and their

incarnations in the regions above this physical universe--the ball of karma would logically start rolling in the spectrum of predestination,

also, even those beings very fall from Sach Khand was said by Kabir Sahib himself to have been Akal Purukh's Hukam (i.e it was predestined in the mind of God),

thus even the very first lives of the first souls to enter the material world can be said to be predetermined.

The basis is that the notion of predestination is a bitter pill to swallow for many people

as they don't like to think that they are not in control of their lives,

from a metaphysical/Gurbani-based standpoint--we do not have freewill and everything is predestined,

Gurbani says that God's Hukam created the world, that is his will

or predestined order,

this is only a philosophical concept however, as I stated earlier,

in this life and on our level we seem to have freewill, we can even believe that we have complete freewill to act as we please, but from a Gurbani-based or philosophical standpoint that freewill is illusory as only God posesses true freewill.

Guru's Grace

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^^ what separates us from animals is the 'choice'. the free will. yes we have predestined liives, however, we also have choice aswell. hence why we have a guru to guide us through our actions and to help us make the right decision. (the obvious implication of choice is here!)

the question arises that, how can we have 'pre-destiny' along with 'choice' as these two seem to contridict each other.

these two concepts are effectively two sides of a single coin.

from what i have understood from vast mounds of knoledge (and gurbani) that i attempt to sift through, i have found a very plausable and supplementary to the whole world of 'karam' and such things.

it is only our situations that we are predestined for, and not an outcome. we shape our own outcome from the choice we make within a particular situation, i.e. we do somthing bad (or good) in a past life, or in this life, we will reap the benefits of that action in our lives.

we are not predestined to go to hell, or heaven, it must be earned. this is in gurbani. it is said repetively that we reap the benifits of our actions. (i know that on the even larger scale, we will all go back to god due to it being the only perminant place {heaven and hell are not perminant}, but that is a conversation of one level above that we are talking at.)

this is why there is dharam raaj to deal with all the karam that we have.

god doesent make anyone commit murder (in anger obviously) or anything like that. that situation that one is put in, IS the karam. this is why we must control out mun. >gusa mun na hundaae< how we act, is up to us, and, with the help and giudance of guru, (and god!..) we will make the correct decission.

that is the true test/destiny.

as a side note, which bani is that in? the bit about 'bhagat kabirs anuraag sagar'? or where can i find that?


gurfateh jeeo

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Anurag Sagar is not in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji,

it is a seperate text written by Kabir as a dialogue

between him and his top disciple Dharam Das

in which Kabir ji answers in great detail very specific

questions about the nature of Akal Purukh, Sachkhand,

the origin of the soul, Dharam Raj and various aspects

of walking the path of bhakti,

as it is in the form of an in-depth discussion

which really answers some very difficult questions

I have found it really helpful in illuminating many

aspects of Gurbani that would otherwise be difficult to decipher,

the text is hard to come by, it is usually in Hindi,

there might be some partial english translations,

I think one was posted on sikhawareness a while back.

Guru's Grace

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bit of a summary:

Kabir to Dharam Das (Kabir’s devotee): How GOD created the creation. This is quite

different as compared to Vedas/Puranas because all the Vedas/Puranas tells the stories how

world was creation after Brahma/Vinshu/Shiv. But the following narration tells us how creation

was created and how the trinity was created.

1. GOD created the souls, and looking at them HE felt very happy.

2. The GOD created 16 sons uttering the Shabads: All the sons (1 through 16) meditate on

SAT-PURASH and eat nectar. The limitless beauty of the worlds created cannot be

described. All worlds get light from the Light of Sat Lok. Even the sun and moon shine with

the Light of one hair of Purush.

a. 1st Shabad: "Worlds" and "oceans" were created. HE made the throne of the 4 worlds

and sat on the lotus. Where GOD sat, desire was created. In the WILL of SATPURASH

88,000 islands were created. In all the worlds HIS desires exists.

b. 2nd Shabad: "Kurma" was created with the desire of remaining attached to HIS feet.

c. 3rd Shabad: "Gyan" was born. When he came before Sat Purush and bowed down to

Him, HE ordered him to go into creation.

d. 4th Shabad: "Vivek" was born. He was ordered to live in creation by Sat Purush.

e. 5th Shabad: A brilliant light came into existence. A son named "Kal Niranjan" was

incarnated. He is created from the most glorious part of the body of Sat Purush that is

why he troubles the soul.

f. 6th Shabad: "Sehaj" was born.

g. 7th Shabad: "Santosh" was created who was given permission to go into creation.

h. 8th Shabad: "Surat/Attention" was created who was given permission to go into


i. 9th Shabad: "Infinite Happiness" was created.

j. 10th Shabad: "Forgiveness" was created.

k. 11th Shabad: "Nishkam" was created.

l. 12th Shabad: "Jal-Rangi" was created.

m. 13th Shabad: "Achint/Worrilessness" was created.

n. 14th Shabad: "Love" was created.

o. 15th Shabad: "Din Dayal" was created.

p. 16th Shabad: "Patience" was created.

q. 17th Shabad: "Yoga" and "Sants" were created.

3. "Kal Niranjan" did the devotion of GOD for 70 yugas standing on one leg.

a. GOD/Sat-Purash was pleased by him, GOD asked him for something as boon and

then Kal requested to have some place to live. GOD told him to go to "Mansarovar"

and he went there.

4. Again "Kal Niranjan" did the devotion of GOD for 70 yugas standing on one foot.

a. GOD asked "Sehaj" to inform Kal that HE is pleased with Kal Niranjan, and tell him

that I have already given him(Kal) 3 worlds to live and what is the purpose of his

devotion again.

b. "Sehaj" transfered the message to "Kal" and "Kal" requested that “He didn’t like this

small place. HE should bless me with either the world of Gods or a seperate new


c. "Sehaj" forwarded this to GOD and GOD ordered him to convey HIS message to

"Kal" that he can create his own creation (void plane) there. Now, "Kal" asked

"Sehaj" "How to create the universe? How can I develop it? How can I create 9

universes as ordered by GOD? Give me what I need to create the universe."

d. "Sehaj" conveyed the message to GOD, and GOD told him that: "All that is needed

for creation are within Kurma; taking them from him, Dharam Rai should do his

work. He should go to him and, bowing his head, should ask him for what he needs."

e. "Kal" went to "Kurma" with happiness and Pride and did not salute him. Dharam Rai

walked around Kurma in anger, considering how to get the materials of creation from

him. Kal attacked the heads of Kurma with his nails and the following things came

out in latent form (and not complete or physical form)

i. Breaking his (Kurma) stomach; air came out.

ii. From the three heads of Kurma the dynasty of Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh

came out.

iii. Five elements came out, including the sky with the moon, sun and stars; they

all came out of him.

iv. Matsya, Shesh Nag, Varah, and the pillars to support the earth came out, and

in this way the creation of earth started.

v. When Kal pulled the head of Kurma, sweat came out, when that drop of sweat

spread; the earth started floating on it.

vi. From the stomach of Kurma, his son Kurma was born-on whom Shesh Nag

and Varah were erected. Recognize the head of Shesh Nag as the earth, below

whom the son Kurma resides.

vii. The created son of Kurma is in the egg, while the original Kurma lives

separately in Sat Lok, where he meditates on Sat Purush as before.

viii. "Kurma" said to Sat Purush: "Nirankar came at me with full force and

manifesting his character climbed on my body: He tore my stomach and didn't

obey your orders.”

ix. Then Sat Purush said this to Kurma: "He is your younger brother. This is the

way of the older ones: they should not pay attention to the bad qualities of the

younger, and they should love them." Hearing the words of Sat Purush,

Kurma was pleased. He was the form of nectar, and remained forever in


5. Again "Kal" did the devotion for 64 yugas standing on one foot: He thought "Without the

Seed, what do I do with the heavenly world, the mortal world, and the world below? How do

I make body?” He was determined to get life for the worlds.

a. GOD again sent "Sehaj" to "Kal" to ask: "What new thing does he ask for now?" and

asked "Sehaj" to give him everything he needs to create the universe. "Tell him to

create the universe, leaving all deceptions."

b. "Kal" asked "Give me some place where I can dwell(a permanent place to live)".

"Sehaj" told him that "Whatever came out from Kurma's stomach, Sat Purush has

ordered to give to you. You have been given the Kingdom of the three worlds! Now,

without any fear, create the universe."

c. "Kal" asked "Tell Sat Purush I beg Him to give me the Seed for the field of my

creation. I am His servant and do not rely on any one else. Daily I remember Him.".

d. "Sehaj" conveyed the message to GOD. Then Sat Purush in HIS Will created a

female who had eight parts in her body. She had eight hands, and came and stood on

the left side of Sat Purush. Her name was "Adhya/Ashtangi/Bhavani/Great Maya)".

e. "Adhya" was told by GOD: "Daughter, go to Dharam Rai/Kal. Take hold of that

which I give you, and meeting with Dharam Rai, create the universe.” Then Sat

Purush gave her the Seed of the jiva (for 84 lakh joonis), whose name is Sohang/Jiva.

She was given the Root Seed of eighty-four lakhs of births. She went to create the

living universe, after bowing her head to Sat Purush. All this was given to the first

woman, who went to Mansarovar. Sat Purush created 3 powers: Fearlessness,

Consciousness of Himself, and Ulghani.

f. GOD sent "Sehaj" to "Kal" to disclose this information: "The Root Seed has been sent

to you. Now you can create the universe as you like. Go and live in Mansarovar, so

that the universe can be created."

6. Kal Niranjan came and settled in Mansarovar. He looked at “Adhya” and by looking at every

single part of her body he became impatient, and he swallowed the woman.

7. Sat Purush cursing Kal: Sat Purash remembered what had happened to Kurma: how Kal had

also attacked him to control him, and had destroyed his three heads knowing this character of

Kal, Sat Purush cursed him.

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i personaly think thsat the trinity and the stuff about how we fell from heaven is not gurmut, rather abrahamic religons. like, the whole adam and eve story. they say that we fell from the heavens, which is also what you are saying..

for me, i dont believe it. try and convince me maybe?? :)


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Above all it is a very interesting interpretation,

I know some Western scholars are studying it

and some books in english have been published on it,

Well, Anurag Sagar represents the teachings of Kabir

in his three previous births in Sat Yug, Treta, Dwapur

(an account of all three incarnations is given in the text)

and so he taught this fall from heaven long before

Abrihamic religions even came into existence,

Sri Guru Granth Sahib says that 'the ones sepreated from countless births--He rejoins'

and also that we have been seperated from God for millions of births,

for me, Anurag Sagar begins to answer the reason 'why' that happened

I have yet to find any other such theory or interpretation that adequetly answers

that question, also if Bhagat Kabir ji wrote it, there must be some genuine validity to it.

Guru's Grace

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wjkk wjkf,

I think the creation, how it started, (the rebellion, heavens and all) comes from abrahamic religions. In christianity, it is said, an angel by the name of Lucifer rebelled against God and was thrown out of the heavens, together with hos group.

However, in Gurbanee, we know that this question - on how the world is created- will never be known to us humans. This is His secret and finding out is like eating iron (impossible).

ਆਸਾ ॥



ਕੋਰੀ ਕੋ ਕਾਹ ੂ ਮਰਮੁ ਨ ਜਾਨ? ॥

koree ko kaahoo maram na jaanaaN.

No one knows the secret of God, the Cosmic Weaver.

ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਆਿਨ ਤਨਾਇਓ ਤਾਨ? ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

sabh jag aan tanaa-i-o taanaaN. ||1|| rahaa-o.

He has stretched out the fabric of the whole world. ||1||Pause||

ਜਬ ਤੁਮ ਸੁਿਨ ਲੇ ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ? ॥

jab tum sun lay bayd puraanaaN.

When you listen to the Vedas and the Puraanas,

ਤਬ ਹਮ ਇਤਨਕੁ ਪਸਿਰਓ ਤਾਨ? ॥੧॥

tab ham itnak pasri-o taanaaN. ||1||

you shall know that the whole world is only a small piece of His woven fabric. ||1||

ਧਰਿਨ ਅਕਾਸ ਕੀ ਕਰਗਹ ਬਨਾਈ ॥

Dharan akaas kee kargah banaa-ee.

He has made the earth and sky His loom.

ਚੰਦ ੁ ਸੂਰਜੁ ਦਇੁ ਸਾਥ ਚਲਾਈ ॥੨॥

chand sooraj du-ay saath chalaa-ee. ||2||

Upon it, He moves the two bobbins of the sun and the moon. ||2||

ਪਾਈ ਜੋਿਰ ਬਾਤ ਇਕ ਕੀਨੀ ਤਹ ਤ?ਤੀ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨ? ॥

paa-ee jor baat ik keenee tah taaNtee man maanaaN.

Placing my feet together, I have accomplished one thing - my mind is pleased with

that Weaver.

ਜੋਲਾਹੇ ਘਰ ੁ ਅਪਨਾ ਚੀਨ?? ਘਟ ਹੀ ਰਾਮੁ ਪਛਾਨ? ॥੩॥

jolaahay ghar apnaa cheenHaaN ghat hee raam pachhaanaaN. ||3||

I have come to understand my own home, and recognize the Lord within my heart.


Page 484

-----and in Japji Sahib----

ਕਵਣੁ ਸੁ ਵੇਲਾ ਵਖਤੁ ਕਵਣੁ ਕਵਣ ਿਥਿਤ ਕਵਣੁ ਵਾਰ ੁ ॥

kavan so vaylaa vakhat kavan kavan thit kavan vaar.

What was that time, and what was that moment? What was that day, and what was

that date?

ਕਵਿਣ ਿਸ ਰਤੁ ੀ ਮਾਹ ੁ ਕਵਣੁ ਿਜਤੁ ਹੋਆ ਆਕਾਰ ੁ ॥

kavan se rutee maahu kavan jit ho-aa aakaar.

What was that season, and what was that month, when the Universe was created?

ਵੇਲ ਨ ਪਾਈਆ ਪੰਡਤੀ ਿਜ ਹੋਵੈ ਲੇਖੁ ਪੁਰਾਣੁ ॥

vayl na paa-ee-aa pandtee je hovai laykh puraan.

The Pandits, the religious scholars, cannot find that time, even if it is written in the


ਵਖਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ਕਾਦੀਆ ਿਜ ਿਲਖਿਨ ਲੇਖੁ ਕੁਰਾਣੁ ॥

vakhat na paa-i-o kaadee-aa je likhan laykh kuraan.

That time is not known to the Qazis, who study the Koran.

ਿਥਿਤ ਵਾਰ ੁ ਨਾ ਜੋਗੀ ਜਾਣੈ ਰਿੁ ਤ ਮਾਹ ੁ ਨਾ ਕੋਈ ॥

thit vaar naa jogee jaanai rut maahu naa ko-ee.

The day and the date are not known to the Yogis, nor is the month or the season.

ਜਾ ਕਰਤਾ ਿਸਰਠੀ ਕਉ ਸਾਜੇ ਆਪੇ ਜਾਣੈ ਸੋਈ ॥

jaa kartaa sirthee ka-o saajay aapay jaanai so-ee.

The Creator who created this creation-only He Himself knows.

ਿਕਵ ਕਿਰ ਆਖਾ ਿਕਵ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਿਕਉ ਵਰਨੀ ਿਕਵ ਜਾਣਾ ॥

kiv kar aakhaa kiv saalaahee ki-o varnee kiv jaanaa.

How can we speak of Him? How can we praise Him? How can we describe Him? How

can we know Him?

Warm Regards

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