Gurmat In Vaars - Rejection Of Vedas

[Bijla Singh]

Vaar 1 Pauris 9 and 10

ਗੋਤਮਿ ਤਪੇ ਬਿਚਾਰਿ ਕੇ ਰਿਗਿ ਵੇਦ ਕੀ ਕਥਾ ਸੁਣਾਈ॥

Speculating seriously, Seer Gotama has put forth the story of the Rigveda.

ਨਿਆਇ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਕੋ ਮਥਿ ਕਰਿ ਸਭਿ ਬਿਧਿ ਕਰਤੇ ਹਥਿ ਜਣਾਈ॥

After churning the thoughts, in the Nyaya (justice) shastra (school of thought), God has been defined as the efficient cause of all the causes.

ਸਭ ਕਛੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਵਸਿ ਹੈ ਹੋਰ ਬਾਤਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਚਲੇ ਨ ਕਾਈ॥

Everything is under His control and in His order, no order whatsoever of anybody else is accepted.

ਦੁਹੀ ਸਿਰੀ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ਹੈ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਆਰਾ ਕਰਿ ਦਿਖਲਾਈ॥

He is in the beginning and at the end of this creation yet in this Shastra (school of thought) he is shown as separate from this creation.

ਕਰਤਾ ਕਿਨੈ ਨ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਅੰਦਰ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਈ॥

No one has seen or known this creator, and rather people have remained indulged in the expansive delusions of prakriti (nature).

ਸੋਹੰ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਛਪਾਇਕੈ ਪੜਦਾ ਭਰਮੁ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ਸੁਣਾਈ॥

Not realizing that soha(ng) parbrahm, the Jiv is mistaken in understanding Him as a man (full of fallacies).

ਰਿਗਿ ਕਹੈ ਸੁਣਿ ਘੁਰਮੁਕਹੁ ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਨ ਦੂਜੀ ਰਾਈ॥

The Rigveda exhorts the knowledgeable people that supreme Lord is everything and none else can be compared with Him.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬਿਨਾ ਨ ਸੋਝੀ ਪਾਈ ॥9॥

Without True Guru true understanding cannot be attained. (9)

Summary – Gautama rishi preached that God is separate from the creation and He is doing everything and is the cause of all causes. However, the fact is that God is within His creation and nearer to human beings than anything/anybody else. Bhai Sahib in the last line says that this misunderstanding was due to the absence of Satguru. The same subject continues in the next Pauri.

ਫਿਰਿ ਜੈਮਨਿ ਰਿਖੁ ਬੋਲਿਆ ਜੁਜਰ ਵੇਦਿ ਮਥਿ ਕਥਾ ਸੁਣਾਵੈ॥

Pondering deeply over the Yajurveda, Rishi Jaimini put forth his postulates.

ਕਰਮਾ ਉਤੇ ਨਿਬੜੈ ਦੇਹੀ ਮਧਿ ਕਰੇ ਸੋ ਪਾਵੈ॥

He concluded: Ultimate decision will be arrived at according to the actions performed through the body which will reap whatever it has sown.

ਥਾਪਸਿ ਕਰਮ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਵਿਚਿ ਕਰਮ ਵਾਸ ਕਰਿ ਆਵੈ ਜਾਵੈ॥

He established the theory of Karma and explained transmigration as controlled by Karma.

ਸਹਸਾ ਮਨਹੁ ਨ ਚੁਕਈ ਕਰਮਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਵੈ॥

Doubts were not erased from his mind. He forgot about the ultimate reality and wandered in karmas.

ਭਰਮਿ ਵਰਤਣਿ ਜਗਤਿ ਕੀ ਇਕੋ ਮਾਇਆ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕਹਾਵੈ॥

He preached that karma is a practical aspect of the world and the Maya and the Brahm are identical.

ਜੁਜਰ ਵੇਦ ਕੋ ਮਥਨਿ ਕਰਿ ਤਤ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਵਿਚਿ ਭਰਮਿ ਮਿਲਾਵੈ॥

This school of thought (Shastra) while stirring the ingredients of Yajurveda, mixes delusions with the supreme reality the Brahm.

ਕਰਮ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਇ ਜਗਤਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਕਰਮਿ ਬੰਧਿ ਕਰਿ ਆਵੈ ਜਾਵੈ॥

And establishes strongly the ritualism which further accepts coming in and going from the world as the result of the Karma bondage.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬਿਨਾ ਨ ਸਹਸਾ ਜਾਵੈ ॥10॥

Without the True Guru, the doubts cannot be dispelled away.(10)

Summary – Bhai Sahib says that just like Rig Veda, Jajur Veda also could not deliver the true knowledge. Jajur Veda went contrary to Rig Veda. Riga Veda preached separation of maya (creation) and God but Jajur called both the same and one. Both were incorrect because although God is within His creation but Himself is not the creation. He is the creator and free from maya. In the last line Bhai Sahib Ji says that without the true Satguru doubts could not be erased. In Pauris 11, 12 and 13 message preached by Saam and Atharvan Vedas are given and the same way Bhai Sahib rejected their theories and concluded that they did not have true knowledge and therefore people wandered about in the world to search the true knowledge but always indulged in false and empty rituals.

When Bhai Sahib uses ancient stories as examples he always gives his conclusion in the last (last 2) line. So never assume that since Bhai Sahib is using a mythical story he is validating it as the truth. Bhai Sahib is not writing Hindu or earlier time period history. He is using some stories and giving his own conclusion at the end. He is highlighting facts of Gurmat. He concludes that message preached by Vedas was false. Vedas failed to guide the humanity in Satyug, Treta, Dwapar and Kalyug. True knowledge can only be obtained from Satguru who shows the true path.

This further supports the meanings in this post No Naam in Vedas. Satguru or the True Guru gives Naam which gives salvation. Bhai Sahib says there was no Satguru (in sargun form) and since there was no Satguru, Naam could not be obtained. Also, Vedas are not given the status of Satguru. This proves that Vedas do not have Naam otherwise there could be no misunderstanding about the Truth.

[.- Prabhjot Singh -.]

Some deep stuff this, thanks so much for the series Bijla Singh Jeo, keep up the great seva!

[jassa]

ਗੋਤਮਿ ਤਪੇ ਬਿਚਾਰਿ ਕੇ ਰਿਗਿ ਵੇਦ ਕੀ ਕਥਾ ਸੁਣਾਈ॥

Speculating seriously, Seer Gotama has put forth the story of the Rigveda.

ਨਿਆਇ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਕੋ ਮਥਿ ਕਰਿ ਸਭਿ ਬਿਧਿ ਕਰਤੇ ਹਥਿ ਜਣਾਈ॥

After churning the thoughts, in the Nyaya (justice) shastra (school of thought), God has been defined as the efficient cause of all the causes.

ਸਭ ਕਛੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਵਸਿ ਹੈ ਹੋਰ ਬਾਤਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਚਲੇ ਨ ਕਾਈ॥

Everything is under His control and in His order, no order whatsoever of anybody else is accepted.

ਦੁਹੀ ਸਿਰੀ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ਹੈ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਆਰਾ ਕਰਿ ਦਿਖਲਾਈ॥

He is in the beginning and at the end of this creation yet in this Shastra (school of thought) he is shown as separate from this creation.

ਕਰਤਾ ਕਿਨੈ ਨ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਅੰਦਰ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਈ॥

No one has seen or known this creator, and rather people have remained indulged in the expansive delusions of prakriti (nature).

ਸੋਹੰ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਛਪਾਇਕੈ ਪੜਦਾ ਭਰਮੁ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ਸੁਣਾਈ॥

Not realizing that soha(ng) parbrahm, the Jiv is mistaken in understanding Him as a man (full of fallacies).

ਰਿਗਿ ਕਹੈ ਸੁਣਿ ਘੁਰਮੁਕਹੁ ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਨ ਦੂਜੀ ਰਾਈ॥

The Rigveda exhorts the knowledgeable people that supreme Lord is everything and none else can be compared with Him.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬਿਨਾ ਨ ਸੋਝੀ ਪਾਈ ॥9॥

Without True Guru true understanding cannot be attained. (9)

From the above vaar i dont know how are veads rejected ... it rejected gautam rishi as true guru it says nothing about rig veda ... first line states that gautam rishi read rig veda and told its katha ... till the third last line its the thinking of gautam rishi ... second last line is ਰਿਗਿ ਕਹੈ ਸੁਣਿ ਘੁਰਮੁਕਹੁ ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਨ ਦੂਜੀ ਰਾਈ॥ ... can u give some more info what bhai gurdas ji is saying in this line ... and in the last it says without true guru true knowledge cant be attained ... here knowledge is of god as per vedas ... a human being just cant read vedas and get the knowledge of god its doesnt imply vedas dont have knowledge to god ... only true guru can give us true knowledge ...

here bhai sahib rejected half knowledged persons who try to translate vedas or in bigger view it can be any religious text that this text contains this ... but we need true and complete teacher to understand those texts ...

[manni007]

Sorry Bijla , but I have to agree with Jassa here, I dont think bahi Sahib is "rejecting" Vedas.

[Bundha]

O God since I have fallen at Your Feet, I do not care for anybody else.

Since I have taken shelter of one God, I am not afraid of anybody and I do not worship anyone else.

I do not follow the religious ways, preached by various religions believing in Ram,

Mohammad, Puran or Quran.

The Simritis, Shastras and the Vedas lay down different doctrines,

but I do not recognise any of these.

O God, You have the sword in Your Hand, I have written these hymns with Your grace and kindness,

all that has been said is in fact spoken by you.

[jassa]

again here it says as a sikh one should not follow any thing other then gurbani and believe in one god ... does it say there is no god in vedas ... and if u can write it in punjabi it would be better for understanding ....

[Bundha]

Bhaji,

The Simritis, Shastras and the Vedas lay down different doctrines, but I do not recognise any of these.

“ Simrat shastar badhe sabah, bohoe ekh kehe matt ekh naa manio. “ The words used are “ekh naa manio” where ‘naa manio’ translates to ‘do not believe.’ Guru Ji says they do not believe in these scriptures, hardly a glowing endorsement wouldn’t you agree. If you do not believe in something then you have rejected it.

<< again here it says as a sikh one should not follow any thing other then gurbani >>>

Actually it does not say anything about a Sikh, the word Sikh is never used.

[Davinder]

ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਬੇਦ ਸਭੈ ਬਹੁ ਭੇਦ ਕਹੈ ਹਮ ਏਕ ਨ ਜਾਨਿਯੋ ॥ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਅਸਿਪਾਨਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਤੁਮਰੀ ਕਰਿ ਮੈ ਨ ਕਹਿਯੋ ਸਭ ਤੋਹਿ ਬਖਾਨਿਯੋ ॥੮੬੩॥

Its janeo not maneyo.

thanks

[Bijla Singh]

What Guatama preached was based on Rig Veda. After all he did katha of the Veda so what he concluded was the message of Rig Veda. In line ਰਿਗਿ ਕਹੈ ਸੁਣਿ ਘੁਰਮੁਕਹੁ ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਨ ਦੂਜੀ ਰਾਈ॥ the word is supposed to be ਗੁਰਮੁਖਹੁ but I will write it in Punjabi, Starting from fourth last line:

ਕਰਤਾ (ਪੁਰਖ) ਨੂੰ ਕਿਸੇ ਨੇ ਨਾ ਲਖਿਆ ਅਤੇ ਭਰਮ ਅੰਦਰ ਹੀ ਭੁੱਲੇ ਭਟਕਦੇ ਰਹੇ । ਗੌਤਮ ਰਿਖੀ ਨੇ ਸੋਹੰ ਮੰਤਰ (ਭਾਵ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਹੈ ਸੋਇ) ਛੁਪਾ ਕੇ (ਭਾਵ ਨਾ ਸਮਝ ਕੇ) ਸਗੋਂ ਭਰਮ ਦਾ ਪੜਦਾ ਪਾ ਦਿੱਤਾ ਕਿ ਕਰਤਾ ਕੁਦਰਤ ਤੋਂ ਵੱਖ ਹੈ । ਦੂਜੇ ਪਾਸੇ ਰਿਗ ਵੇਦ ਕਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਸੁਣੋ ਗੁਰਮੁਖ ਜਨੋ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਸਭ ਕੁੱਝ ਹੈ । ਪਰ ਇਹ ਆਪਸ ਵਿਰੋਧੀ ਗੱਲਾਂ ਕਰਕੇ ਹੀ ਝਗੜਾ ਪਿਆ ਰਿਹਾ ਅਤੇ ਇਸ ਦਾ ਕਾਰਨ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦਾ ਨਾ ਹੋਣਾ ਸੀ । ਭਾਵ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਤੋਂ ਬਗੈਰ ਸਹੀ ਸੇਧ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਨਾ ਹੋ ਸਕੀ ।

When I say Vedas rejected I do not mean their existence is rejected but I am implying that their status as the holy guide is rejected. Their status as the source of divine knowledge is rejected. They do not have Naam. They may have gyan and may help someone in spirituality but true knowledge cannot be obtained from them. Neither Guatama nor Vedas have the same status as Satguru and therefore they cannot give Naam. If one says that it was Gautama, a learned Sanskrit scholar, who could not understand Rig Veda properly then how is it possible for humans of today's world who lack any knowledge of Sanskrit to understand Vedas? True knowledge or message and muktee is only obtained from Satguru ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਮੋ ਕਉ ਦੀਆ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ॥ and Vedas do not have this status. Vedas talk about:

Rig Veda - talks about worshipping three devtas Brahma, Vishnu and Shiv.

Saam Veda - talks about rituals like havans and shraadhs.

Yajur Veda - talks about sacrifices of animals and humans to gods.

Athrav Veda - talks about ghosts and spirits.Rig Veda - talks about worshipping three devtas Brahma, Vishnu and Shiv.

Saam Veda - talks about rituals like havans and shraadhs.

Yajur Veda - talks about sacrifices of animals and humans to gods.

Athrav Veda - talks about ghosts and spirits.

Guru Sahib never advocated Vedas should be learned or have any divine knowledge. They talk about "hoshiaan gallan". Guru Sahib says:

O Pandit, O religious scholar, your filth shall not be erased, even if you read the Vedas for four ages. (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Ang 647)

He is beyond the world of the Vedas, the Koran and the Bible. The Supreme King of Nanak is immanent and manifest. ||4||3||105|| (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Ang 397)

One may read all the books of the Vedas, the Bible, the Simritees and the Shaastras, but they will not bring liberation. (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Ang 747)

The mortal thinks about the Vedic teachings of the three gunas, the three dispositions. He deals in corruption, filth and vice. He dies, only to be reborn; he is ruined over and over again. (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Ang 1262)

Vedas exist, have knowledge but do not give divine knowledge, do not have the status of Satguru, cannot give Naam and hence no liberation. God is in Vedas just like He is in animals, plants, humans, solar system, galaxies etc but none of these can give salvation.

ਰਾਮ, ਰਹੀਮ, ਪੁਰਾਨ ਅਤੇ ਕੁਰਾਨ ਨੇ ਅਨੇਕ ਮਤਾਂ ਦਾ ਵਿਖਿਆਨ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੈ ਪਰ ਮੈਂ ਇੱਕ ਵੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਮੰਨਦਾ । ਜੋ ਕੁਝ ਵੀ ਸਿਮਰਤੀਆਂ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰਾਂ ਬੇਦਾਂ ਨੇ ਬਹੁਤ ਭੇਦ ਆਖੇ ਹਨ ਮੈਂ ਇੱਕ ਵੀ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣਦਾ ਭਾਵ ਇਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਕੁਝ ਨਹੀਂ ਸਮਝਦਾ । (ਗੁਰੂ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ)

[jassa]

ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਬੇਦ ਸਭੈ ਬਹੁ ਭੇਦ ਕਹੈ ਹਮ ਏਕ ਨ ਜਾਨਿਯੋ ॥ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਅਸਿਪਾਨਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਤੁਮਰੀ ਕਰਿ ਮੈ ਨ ਕਹਿਯੋ ਸਭ ਤੋਹਿ ਬਖਾਨਿਯੋ ॥੮੬੩॥

actualy anyone who has taken santheya of sri dasam granth sahib from a real ustad not internet can tell u what this lines are in context of ... these are the ending lines of rama avtar ... here gursahib is saying after writing rama avtar katha that i did not used the knowledge of vedas simritis and sastara to write this katha they say many things about ram but i know nothing ... hum ek na janeyo ... sri aspan kirpa tumri ... its the kirpa of akal purkh what i have written in rama avtar its not my intelligence what u akalpurkh made me write i have written that .... these are the actual meaning of this widely used tukk to give some other message ...

Vedas exist, have knowledge but do not give divine knowledge, do not have the status of Satguru, cannot give Naam and hence no liberation. God is in Vedas just like He is in animals, plants, humans, solar system, galaxies etc but none of these can give salvation.

i agree to this fully ... vedas is not the sikh way they are more stories and reading them is just speanding years without gaining anything ... but even if out of 1000 1 page talks about god and bhakti in my personal views it should be given respect ...

currently i have started santheya of bhai gurdas diyan varran will catch up on this topic laters ...