Ravidasi Followers Of Baalan Dera Start A New Faith

[rollingpunjab]

You are forgetting you are on a Sikh forum and casting doubt on Guru Nanak is mischief that cannot be forgiven. As for your claims on ownership of Bani can you provide where does the bani of Bhagats of Guru Granth Sahib exists elsewhere? All Bani in SGGS, regardless the author, is ONE NIRANKAR GODS BANI and anybody taking it out from SGGS is asking for *. Sikhs cannot allow any Dera to take Bani out of SGGS, Bani of Bhagat Ravidas in Guru Granth Sahib never existed elsewhere so obviously the ownership rests with Sikhs as a whole. You cannot take Bani of Sikhs and form another religious book on base of it. If Bhagats Bani in SGGS existed as a Granth during his lifetime and he had a faithful following centered around it, then you are welcome to go ahead. But the Bani of all Bhagats in SGGS is found in SGGS only, and how it got in SGGS is known to Gurus and Bhagats, who chose to remain their Bani in SGGS only. As you type, one of your sant associated with Dera has rejected the move to take Bani from Guru Granth Sahib and forming a granth.

What if kabir panthis come and ask you to give back Satguru Kabir's bani

All Bani of SGGS is not found elsewhere. Everything originates from SGGS. All writings outside SGGS are regarded by Sikhs as 'kachi bani' and Sikhs dont care what is done with it.

As far as taking bani out of GGS is concerned, GGS is a compilation.

You are on Sikh forum and are talking about our living father. So behave yourself.

apnepart2,

Come on, I not calling Guru Nanak a mischief. He added Guru Ravidass's bani as a mark of utmost respect for Guru Ravidass Ji. I was only responding to analogy drawn ealier of taking out bani equivalent to cutting limbs. That is the only reason, I commented, if you consider it equivalent to cutting limbs than how many limbs Guru nanak cut ?

Also Guru Ravidass Bani, which is in GGS is also existing in various manuscripts which predate GGS and that's where the bani in the new granth has been added from. So this claim that bani is being taken out is not valid. There is no legal implication anyway, even if it is taken out.

Also Satguru Kabir's whole of bani in GGS exists in Kabirpanthi granth Kabir Bijak, which predates GGS. So, not mine but from your analogy, Guru Nanak committed a blasphemy. Now you and I know it is not true but when rationale presented by you is such than why counter is also true?

Brother, the oldest record of Bhagat Ravidass ji's Bani is Adi Granth or Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Had it not been Guru Granth Sahib ji. Bhagat ji's baani would have either lost with the passage of time or manipulated. The bani remained unaffected till date only because it got the stamp of Guru Sahibans and embodiment of Guru Granth Sahib ji. It is because Guru Granth Sahib was compiled during the life time of Guru sahibs and not after they left the body. Furher, Ravidass ji never called himself Guru. There's a lot of difference between Guru and Bhagat. A Guru is the one who is chosen by God himself to spread His message. A bhagat is the one who tries to realise God by pure Bhakti and meditation and ultimately succeds in finding him.

The sikh Panth was started by Guru Nanak Dev ji and he is considered first sikh Guru. while Bhagat Ravi Dass ji never started any panth. Years and years after Bhagat ji left his body, people named a Panth after his name. How come Bhagat ji becane founder of Ravidassis Panth. Dera Ballan has made it into separate Panth Not Bhagat Ravidass ji.

now since SGGS ji revered as living Guru according to the Hukum of Guru Gobind Singh ji...it is embodiment of Guru ji himself.

now I must say here even we sikhs take bani out of SGGS in the form of Gutka Sahib of Japji Sahib, SUkhmani sahib and other baanis. But we do not make separate Granth of it. Thats what pinching Sikh Panth when a dera first declares a new panth with borrowed ideology and a new granth which is made by taking Baani out of SGGS. Had Bhagat Ravidass himself declared such faith, it would have been correct to call ravidasia as separate faith but who is this dera ballan to declare a separate faith?

dont mind me saying faiths are only those which are started by the founders of it...not those which are started centuries after the founders have left the body and that too by somebody at random...!

[harjits4]

BigChann,

Jai Gurudev !

if you think I am stirring up conflict than it is not true. What conflict I could stir up...? It's only bloody computer.

By the way based on you notions of disrespect etc..let me ask couple questions and everybody may respond in their own way..

Q. 1.

a. Do you follow bani in SGGS as living guru (bani guru guru hai bani) ?

b. Or do you follow 1430 pages of the GGS as living guru (not what is written on it)?

Q.2

a. Do you follow what is written in GGS in 1604 as a guidance for Sikhs ?

b. or do you follow Sikh Mariada written in 1920s...?

Regards,

Harjit Singh

Your criticizing Rahit in order to justify the existence of Ravidassia faith? The oldest Rahits date back to the time of the Gurus and they are fairly similar. The 1920's Rahit which you talked awayed stripped away the casteism that you are opposed to. One of the oldest Rahits is Gyan Ratnvali by Bhai Mani Singh. Also, Have you heard of Gyani Ditt Singh? He was one of the most active members of the Singh Sabha movement, and one its most important leaders. Here is a bio http://www.sikh-hist.../dittsingh.html

Thanks Kuthaman Ji:

I didn't criticize Rahit anywhere. It is fine for sikhs and I have no reason to criticize it as it is for a sikhs. I just pointed out the timeframe of 1920s.

Now you ave an interesting comment that Rahints existed at the time of Guruji also and 1920 Rahit did away with casteism. So it is true that Rahits before at the time of Gurus had casteim in it. So if rahints had casteim, than it is not surprising that some foreign scholars have pointed out that Guru Gobind Singh was an exemplary opportunist who, when he couldn't get support from other communities i.e Brahmins, khatri rajas etc, enlisted lower castes to fight for him. So it was not a love for equality but for a need of the hour that lower castes fell for khalsa concept. It is also not surprising that merely removing casteism from Rahits hasn't affected casteism in sikhism as it happened recently in 1920s.

Many a times, even Indian scholars are flabbergasted as to why casteism is still rampant in sikhism despite the teachings. Now you know that it was very well entrenched in papers even during gurus times. No wonder why some comment that all gurus were Kshatrias and none of them married out of castes and after initial some gurus, gurudom was essentially kept in the family. So if gurus couldn't/wouldn't erase castesim why would its subjects.

This is a general feeling amongst dalits that castesim was truly hated only during the time of Guru Nanak Dev ji to Guru Arjun Dev ji. afterwards, it was merely considered to be phenomenon to be swept under carpet.

Well, we do learn something in forums.

[harjits4]

BiggChann Ji:

Jai Gurudev:

I can understand your feelings because you revere GGS as a living guru but we never did and would never and this was the point of conflict. This is not to imply that we disrespect it in any manner. We believed in bani rather than the medium it is written on and we allowed both mona or anybody else to read it. Off couse GGS being a holy book has its inherent respect but we didn't believe in the rituals of airconditioning it, making it go to sleep, wake it up, providing it heat in winter specifically etc. If sikhs do it than that's fine, we have no issue with it. If GGS is a shared granth than one group can't enforce their mariada on everybody since sharing inherently implies that it is respected and worshipped equally by all. We addressed Ravidass as Guru and sikhs didn't like it so it is better to take own route.

If I take your analogy of cutting the limbs than how many limbs Guru Nanak Dev Ji cut. Satguru Naamdev, Satguru Sain, Baba Sheikh Farid, Bhagat Rama Nand were all senior to Guru Nanak Dev ji and obviously weren't alive when Guru nanak took their bani and included in GGS. How did he ask them? Moreover, GGS is a compiled Granth and Guru nanak Dev or Sikhs, I am afrain to say, don't get ownership of Guru ravidass Bani or other bani of other's saints. What if kabir panthis come and ask you to give back Satguru Kabir's bani? So analogy of yours, I am sorry to say is more based on your personal feelings.

You may argue that it is living but then again, it is not for us. For us Ravidassias it has been used as a reason to murder innocent ravidassias right in its front. Now which living guru would allow that...? Where was the living guru when innocent worshippers were stabbed in Vienna or a child's throat was almost slashed with gatra sahib ji and held at ransom. You may talk about beadbi but true living guru would never allow cold blooded murder of anybody. That is not the job of a guru but that is the job of a blood thirty monster. Living guru forgives and leaves it up to almighty to take care of things.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

harjits4, as I pointed out earlier, it is likely a good move that Dera Ballan take their own path as clearly they were disrespecting Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. Although it is strange that they want to now wish to disregard the same Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that they have used for years to amass their wealth and following. Thankfully, they do not speak for the Ravidass community at large and it appears from some reports that not for all their followers either.

Also as pointed out in another post, the bani of the Bhagats you have named is unique to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Not cut and paste as your Dera Ballan intend too.

In respect of violence, I do not know exactly what took place in Vienna although I am aware that Dera Ballan leaders have continuously disrespected Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji dispite requests to refrain from doing so. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji was and never has been used as a reason to murder and being as you are on a Sikh forum, I would suggest you control your fingers when you type such things. Apart from hearing abour Ramanand, I was not at Vienna nor have I heard anything about the 'allegations' you are making. However you seem to overlook that your own Dera Ballan followers didn't seem to have any problem whilst commiting violence, rioting and looting as well as burning the same Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that contains the bani of Bhagat Ravidass. It is evidence of 'hatred' rather than disrespecting 'rituals'. I would suggest that blame falls squarely on the Dera Ballans leaders.

It is clear that you are only this forum to stir up conflict.

BigChann,

Jai Gurudev !

if you think I am stirring up conflict than it is not true. What conflict I could stir up...? It's only bloody computer.

By the way based on you notions of disrespect etc..let me ask couple questions and everybody may respond in their own way..

Q. 1.

a. Do you follow bani in SGGS as living guru (bani guru guru hai bani) ?

b. Or do you follow 1430 pages of the GGS as living guru (not what is written on it)?

Q.2

a. Do you follow what is written in GGS in 1604 as a guidance for Sikhs ?

b. or do you follow Sikh Mariada written in 1920s...?

Regards,

Harjit Singh

Q. 1.

Each letter of Gurbani is our Guru. Where Bani Is contained it is the Body of Our Guru So Both.

Q.2.

With regards to marayada for Guru Granth Sahib it is the more or so the maryada followed since 1604 (Today satkaar for bani has decreased marayada then was more stictly followed). Guru Arjan Devji gave up his bed for The bani and used to sleep on the floor.

Guru is for the world. But if satkaar is not present it is the duty of the Sikhs of the Guru to stop beadbi . So salute to the singhs in Vienna.

Thanks Gurdaspuria Ji:

Q1.

Then

how do you view the sanskar of body of guru when GGS has grown old (the paper it is written on has deteriorated in condition)...?

Does ever a feeling come to you that when several bodies of gurus are burnt together that guru's body is basically no more...?

How do you view the bani which is written in newspapers and those newspapers are strewn around people's feet ?

Or does a bani only become guru when it is included as a whole in GGS...? In other words, is it acceptable for people to have partial word of guru on any medium?

Do you think that when Guru Gobind Singh said "Consider Bani as Guru", he essentially menat that whatever Bani says is the word of Guru?

Did he say that Granth is also guru's body..?

Btw, I may add that "Guru Granth ji manyo, Pargat guran ki de...." is not in the GGS and is not attributed to Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

Q2.

Since you mentioned satkar was more strict at the time for gurus or mariada was more strict, is there any documentation available from that mariada or any traditions/rituals etc.?

Is the concept of beadbi (what is beadbi and what is not?) stemming up from Rehit Mariada of 1920s or from the gurbani...?

Your salute to sings is your view but they are now rotting in austrian jail and they have also written a letter of apology to dera saint and asked for forgiveness. I am not 100% sure whether it is true but have heard that it is letter full of shame and seems to be genuine.

[BiggChan]

Step taken in haste: Ballan head's deputy

IP Singh, TNN, 7 February 2010, 06:13am IST

KOOPER DHEPUR (JALANDHAR):

Already under fire from other Ravidassia sants over its announcement of founding a new religion, Dera Sachkhand Ballan now faces rumblings of dissent from within its fold.

Sant Surinder Dass Kathar Wale, the next in hierarchy to head Sant Niranjan Dass, told TOI at the dera’s branch in village Kooper Dhepur Adda Kathar, on Saturday, “I don’t agree with what is going on and I have boycotted all this.’’

Stressing that such issues can’t be decided in a hurry, he said broader consultations, seminars, debates and discussions should have been held with various sections and intellectuals of the community before taking such a big step.

What is happening is not what Sant Ramanad, whose killing in a Ravidass Temple in Vienna triggered the reaction, preached and practised. This (severing ties with Guru Granth Sahib) is certainly not what he would have liked, he pointed out. “Sant Ji would extensively quote from the Guru Granth Sahib during his discourses and teach Gurbani to students at Dera Ballan,’’ he added.

Slamming the Sikh leadership, including the clergy and SGPC, he said the Guru Granth Sahib belonged not just to Sikhs, but to the entire mankind, and the Sikh leadership had done little to end caste-based discrimination in gurdwaras or to bring the Ravidassia community closer. This discrimination is against the ideals laid down in the holy book and has led to the present situation, he added.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chandigarh/Step-taken-in-haste-Ballan-heads-deputy/articleshow/5544086.cms

[apnepart2]

Thanks Gurdaspuria Ji:

Q1.

Then

how do you view the sanskar of body of guru when GGS has grown old (the paper it is written on has deteriorated in condition)...?

Does ever a feeling come to you that when several bodies of gurus are burnt together that guru's body is basically no more...?

How do you view the bani which is written in newspapers and those newspapers are strewn around people's feet ?

Or does a bani only become guru when it is included as a whole in GGS...? In other words, is it acceptable for people to have partial word of guru on any medium?

Do you think that when Guru Gobind Singh said "Consider Bani as Guru", he essentially menat that whatever Bani says is the word of Guru?

Did he say that Granth is also guru's body..?

Btw, I may add that "Guru Granth ji manyo, Pargat guran ki de...." is not in the GGS and is not attributed to Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

Q2.

Since you mentioned satkar was more strict at the time for gurus or mariada was more strict, is there any documentation available from that mariada or any traditions/rituals etc.?

Is the concept of beadbi (what is beadbi and what is not?) stemming up from Rehit Mariada of 1920s or from the gurbani...?

Your salute to sings is your view but they are now rotting in austrian jail and they have also written a letter of apology to dera saint and asked for forgiveness. I am not 100% sure whether it is true but have heard that it is letter full of shame and seems to be genuine.

Read my earlier post having no knowledge about Sikhi and its doctrine. Your arguments just show your level of education about Sikh relgiion.

So if rahints had casteim, than it is not surprising that some foreign scholars have pointed out that Guru Gobind Singh was an exemplary opportunist who, when he couldn't get support from other communities i.e Brahmins, khatri rajas etc, enlisted lower castes to fight for him.

How stupid can anyone get? Admin a few days ago a member was banned for uttering rubbish about Akal Takht Sahib, why is this guy who is doing baseless nindya of Guruji still a member?

[harjits4]

apnepart2,

Come on, I not calling Guru Nanak a mischief. He added Guru Ravidass's bani as a mark of utmost respect for Guru Ravidass Ji. I was only responding to analogy drawn ealier of taking out bani equivalent to cutting limbs. That is the only reason, I commented, if you consider it equivalent to cutting limbs than how many limbs Guru nanak cut ?

Also Guru Ravidass Bani, which is in GGS is also existing in various manuscripts which predate GGS and that's where the bani in the new granth has been added from. So this claim that bani is being taken out is not valid. There is no legal implication anyway, even if it is taken out.

Also Satguru Kabir's whole of bani in GGS exists in Kabirpanthi granth Kabir Bijak, which predates GGS. So, not mine but from your analogy, Guru Nanak committed a blasphemy. Now you and I know it is not true but when rationale presented by you is such than why counter is also true?

Bhagats Bani was not added out of respect as you seem to think so. This shows your level of understanding of Sikh religion and it's doctrines.

How Bhagat Bani got in SGGS is not exactly known, Guru Nanak having collected it just an assumption drawn from his wide travels. How the Bani of Bhagats is in Gurmukhi in sggs when most of them had nothing to do with Punjabi is also mystery for which every historian has his own theory. The exact life details of Bhagats esp. Ravidas and Kabir are really not known and depend upon traditional stories. One such story is how the souls of Bhagats came and requested Guru Arjan to include their work in SGGS when he started compiling SGGS, and the party was lead by Kabir not Ravidas.

As for Kabir panthis, their granth is very different from SGGS. There is a wide range of differences between Bijak's content and those of SGGS in vocabulary, spellings, language, overall message etc. Similar and exact are two different things. SGGS is not a cut and paste job as you think so. That is why cuting and pasting of Bhagat Bani cannot be allowed from SGGS.

Can i ask you a question

You quote Kabirpanthis. They have their own Granth which is not similar to SGGS in any way. Why don't you follow them a produce a granth of Bhagat Ravidas and then compare with SGGS? Why the cut and paste job? Didn't Bhagat ravidas leave any Granth behind? Why don't you provide the origins of the manuscripts you are talking about and present their contents here.

apnepart2, to answer your question, even though bijak is not similar as GGS, lot of bani from bijak has been added to GGS. As for providing you the manuscripts for Guru ravidass Ji's bani, I have all the documented information from it but based on your highly uneducated response regarding reasons and mode of inclusion of bhagats bani, I doubt your have the intelligence to appreciate what I would show you. In other words, fools should not be explained and wise need not be explained. I have put you in first category.

Now your mode of inclusion of bhagats bani. Are you telling me that Guru Nanak used to carry bhagat's bani around for no reason and just collected it during travels. This is stupid. Now let me enlighten you a little bit.

Guru Nanak requested bani from bhagats and he used to sing it with bala and mardana and janam sakhis of guru nanak state that (which are even older than GGS). Secondly Guru Arjun Dev Ji didn't get any dreams or anything. He got it compiled and some of the compilers were reluctant to add bahagats bani because of low caste. Guru Arjun dev made it clear that, GGS will not finish without this bani because it was dhur ki bani that Guru Nanak had collected from bhagats. In fact, Guru Nanak said in his teachings "Bhagtan ki bani sachhi bani" i.e bani of bhagats is the true bani. Guru Nanak repeatedly mentioned that he has learnt at the feet of bhagats.

Now as far as gurmukhi is concerned, it was not invented by Bhai Gurdas. It existed before. Guru Ravidass says in his bani a couplet "bed bidh chontis akhar mahain" i.e name of god can't be explained in 34 letters of the language. There was also a litigation in Lahore before independence which proved that gurmukhi as it is called today was started by Guru Ravidass and not Bhai Gurdas. Bhai Gurdas learned it. He was not an inventor of any language. He was user. It doesn't reduce the contribution of Bhai Gurdas though.

[harjits4]

Thanks Gurdaspuria Ji:

Q1.

Then

how do you view the sanskar of body of guru when GGS has grown old (the paper it is written on has deteriorated in condition)...?

Does ever a feeling come to you that when several bodies of gurus are burnt together that guru's body is basically no more...?

How do you view the bani which is written in newspapers and those newspapers are strewn around people's feet ?

Or does a bani only become guru when it is included as a whole in GGS...? In other words, is it acceptable for people to have partial word of guru on any medium?

Do you think that when Guru Gobind Singh said "Consider Bani as Guru", he essentially menat that whatever Bani says is the word of Guru?

Did he say that Granth is also guru's body..?

Btw, I may add that "Guru Granth ji manyo, Pargat guran ki de...." is not in the GGS and is not attributed to Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

Q2.

Since you mentioned satkar was more strict at the time for gurus or mariada was more strict, is there any documentation available from that mariada or any traditions/rituals etc.?

Is the concept of beadbi (what is beadbi and what is not?) stemming up from Rehit Mariada of 1920s or from the gurbani...?

Your salute to sings is your view but they are now rotting in austrian jail and they have also written a letter of apology to dera saint and asked for forgiveness. I am not 100% sure whether it is true but have heard that it is letter full of shame and seems to be genuine.

Read my earlier post having no knowledge about Sikhi and its doctrine. Your arguments just show your level of education about Sikh relgiion.

So if rahints had casteim, than it is not surprising that some foreign scholars have pointed out that Guru Gobind Singh was an exemplary opportunist who, when he couldn't get support from other communities i.e Brahmins, khatri rajas etc, enlisted lower castes to fight for him.

How stupid can anyone get? Admin a few days ago a member was banned for uttering rubbish about Akal Takht Sahib, why is this guy who is doing baseless nindya of Guruji still a member?

apnepart2, I just responded to kuthaman statement that casteism existed in sikhism in older rehat mariadas. As far as Guru Gobind Singh is concerned, why is it taken as an insult. Anyone who is cornered in war has every right and any able general will use whatever resources available to fight tyranny. He sacrificed his whole family and that is indication of his committment. If you are in a war, you would do the same. During his times also, many jatts,khatris asked guruji why you enlisted these low castes? That's when he answered "enhin ke bane hum hain nahin to mo se hazar crore pare" i.e I am made by or I survive through these low castes otherwise there are thousands or crores like me. He himself stated that low castes are his savior. You may know that jatts had deserted guru gobind singh because he couldn't pay them as he had run out of money during war. Guru Gobind Singh being a khatri knew foolishness of jatts very well and that's the reason he addressed Jatts as "Jatt-boot".

Please only criticize my statements after conformation. Guru Gobind Singh was a unique personality who sacrificed his family for a cause and low castes sacrificed their lives for him and his family. What low castes got in return from sikhs? murder and opression.

[apnepart2]

I am flustered by your behaviour and it is making me think again of the theory that reservation for low castes is because they have half of intelligence than a normal human being. Amazing. Meanwhile read the verses by Bhagat Ravidasji.

What catagory do put him in?

"The company I keep is wretched and low, and I am anxious day and night;

my actions are crooked, and I am of lowly birth".

And was he hallucinating in this one below?

"Baygumpura, 'the city without sorrow', is the name of the town".

(is it a ghost town)?

Is he clueless?

Gauree Poorbee, Ravi Daas Jee:

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

The frog in the deep well knows nothing of its own country or other lands;

just so, my mind, infatuated with corruption, understands nothing aboutthis world or the next. ||1||

O Lord of all worlds: reveal to me, even for an instant, the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan. ||1||Pause||

My intellect is polluted; I cannot understand Your state, O Lord.

Take pity on me, dispel my doubts, and teach me true wisdom

Even the great Yogis cannot describe Your Glorious Virtues; they are beyond words.

I am dedicated to Your loving devotional worship, says Ravi Daas the tanner. ||3||1||

Does he needs to see a doctor?

I have tried many methods, but by turning it away, the noose of doubt is not turned away. Love and devotion have not welled up within me, and so Ravi Daas is sad and depressed. ||8||1||

Who is the guru here?

O servant Ravi Daas, dispel your sorrow and doubt, and know that Guru given spiritual wisdom is the penance of penances

Who is begging for the feet of Saints?

Your Saints are Your body, and their company is Your breath of life.

By the True Guru-given spiritual wisdom, I know the Saints as the gods of gods. ||1|| Grant me the Society of the Saints, the sublime essence of the Saints' conversation,

and the Love of the Saints, O Lord, God of gods. ||1||Pause||

The Character of the Saints, the lifestyle of the Saints, and the service of the servant of the Saints. ||2||

I ask for these,and for one thing more - devotional worship, which shall fulfill my desires. Do not show me the wicked sinners. ||3|| Says Ravi Daas, he alone is wise, who knows this: there is no difference between the Saints and the Infinite Lord.||4||2||

Is he talking about Sant Ramanand of Balan Dera in the above verse? can you tell me the time when Bhagat Ravidas falls at Sant Ramanand of Balan Deras feet and when as i want to come and be a witness.

Which honey is the bee talking about in the below verse? Hallucination again? Is the honey Sant Ramanand of Balan Dera and Bhagat Ravidas the bee?

I am worthless, and You are so benevolent. ||1||Pause|| You are the white and yellow threads of silk, and Iam like a poor worm. O Lord, I seek to live in the Company of the Saints, like the bee with its honey. ||2|| My social status is low, my ancestry is low, and my birth is low as well. I have not performed the service of the Lord, the Lord, says Ravi Daas the cobbler.

Who is the Guru who showed him lords love here? and where is he nowdays?

Servant Ravi Daas is imbued with the Lord's Love.

By Guru's Grace, he shall not have to go to hell.

By Guru's Grace, I attain the immaculate Lord.

I cannot worship You, nor offer You flowers.

Says Ravi Daas, what shall my condition be hereafter?

Sadly he doesnt even bother to mention fellow chamaars. How sad your own Guru didnt even acknowledge your presence in this world? Did he want to appeal to 'Higher Castes' and wary of offending them so didnt mention you? How are you going to escape Sikhism even if you take out his bani from SGGS? You will still end up following the curse of Sikhism (as you perceive it). Unless ofcourse you can come up with something original and unique.

[rollingpunjab]

BigChann,

Jai Gurudev !

if you think I am stirring up conflict than it is not true. What conflict I could stir up...? It's only bloody computer.

By the way based on you notions of disrespect etc..let me ask couple questions and everybody may respond in their own way..

Q. 1.

a. Do you follow bani in SGGS as living guru (bani guru guru hai bani) ?

b. Or do you follow 1430 pages of the GGS as living guru (not what is written on it)?

Q.2

a. Do you follow what is written in GGS in 1604 as a guidance for Sikhs ?

b. or do you follow Sikh Mariada written in 1920s...?

Regards,

Harjit Singh

Your criticizing Rahit in order to justify the existence of Ravidassia faith? The oldest Rahits date back to the time of the Gurus and they are fairly similar. The 1920's Rahit which you talked awayed stripped away the casteism that you are opposed to. One of the oldest Rahits is Gyan Ratnvali by Bhai Mani Singh. Also, Have you heard of Gyani Ditt Singh? He was one of the most active members of the Singh Sabha movement, and one its most important leaders. Here is a bio http://www.sikh-hist.../dittsingh.html

Thanks Kuthaman Ji:

I didn't criticize Rahit anywhere. It is fine for sikhs and I have no reason to criticize it as it is for a sikhs. I just pointed out the timeframe of 1920s.

Now you ave an interesting comment that Rahints existed at the time of Guruji also and 1920 Rahit did away with casteism. So it is true that Rahits before at the time of Gurus had casteim in it. So if rahints had casteim, than it is not surprising that some foreign scholars have pointed out that Guru Gobind Singh was an exemplary opportunist who, when he couldn't get support from other communities i.e Brahmins, khatri rajas etc, enlisted lower castes to fight for him. So it was not a love for equality but for a need of the hour that lower castes fell for khalsa concept. It is also not surprising that merely removing casteism from Rahits hasn't affected casteism in sikhism as it happened recently in 1920s.

Many a times, even Indian scholars are flabbergasted as to why casteism is still rampant in sikhism despite the teachings. Now you know that it was very well entrenched in papers even during gurus times. No wonder why some comment that all gurus were Kshatrias and none of them married out of castes and after initial some gurus, gurudom was essentially kept in the family. So if gurus couldn't/wouldn't erase castesim why would its subjects.

This is a general feeling amongst dalits that castesim was truly hated only during the time of Guru Nanak Dev ji to Guru Arjun Dev ji. afterwards, it was merely considered to be phenomenon to be swept under carpet.

Well, we do learn something in forums.

Rahits without casteism existed during the time of Gurus as well...your comments simply suggest that you are not only spiritually blind but uneducated as well...if casteism would have been there during the time of Guru Gobind Singh ji...then how come first set of Panj piyaras belonging to different castes which included the so called low castes...were baptised by Guru Sahib to become khalsa...SGGS ji includes baani of Ravidass ji, kabir dass ji, bhagat Dhanna ji...they were all considered low castes...the bir of SGGS ji to whom GUru Gobind Singh ji conferred Guruship was actually narratted by Guru sahib himself. He would have very easily removed the bani of all these bhagats being a low caste...but he didnt...!

Guru Sahib got support from many so called high caste people and rajas, raja of assam, nahan were his devotees, many muslim priests like pir bhikhan shah were his mureed, Baba Banda singh bahadur the khatri by birth was in his army, pandit kirpa Ram who went to Guru Tegh Bahdur ji for help againt aurangzeb and who later became kirpa singh was his devotee...rai roop chand who gave shelter to Guru sahib in kachchi garhi. Raja Todar mal who cremated younger sons of Guru Sahib...so there were many so called high caste people who were with Guru Sahib...so go to library explore some history rather than exploring some stupid dera...!

IN 1920's it was merely reinstated that casteism is by no means part of sikhism and it should be totally removed...as people were following it in one way or another during those days...it is a separate thing that today also many people follow it...but that is there fault not the sikhism or the Gurus.!

Further, this is a stupid observation on your part that Gurus married in kshatriya family so they are caste oriented, whenever an alliance came they got married...Guru Hargobind Sahib hd marriage proposal from Chandu shah...but they refused as Chandu had ill intentions...it is all "sanjog"...hukum as ordained by God...nothing against so called lower caste people during those days...Gurus had big tasks to do than to look for whom to marry, which "caste" to marry in...these stupid things may again be taught by some dera, could not be considered divine...!

Now who would be the Guru and who would not be the Guru is again will of the God. You say Guruship was kept in the family...all right after Guru Ramdass Guru Arjan became Guru...Can you object his contributions when he sacrificed his life for freedom of practicing one's faith...after him Guru Hrgobind Sahib became Guru who was the fist Guru to infuse millitary tradition in sikhsim, who fought battles to ensure justice...canyou object his contributions...later came Guru Tegh Bhadur ji...how can you object his contribution...then Guru Gobind Singh ji...Find one objectionable point in Guru Sahib's life...neither you nor your dera...So what's the point in crying that Guruship was kept in the same family...?

well as far as dalit's feeling is concerned regarding casteism, its not dalit feeling, its the brainwash induced by deras in India...and to some extent, few of the so called high caste people's rude behaviour against the dalits...but that doesnt mean the so called "dalits" have got right to speak against the Gurus or the sikhism..!

[rollingpunjab]

BiggChann Ji:

Jai Gurudev:

I can understand your feelings because you revere GGS as a living guru but we never did and would never and this was the point of conflict. This is not to imply that we disrespect it in any manner. We believed in bani rather than the medium it is written on and we allowed both mona or anybody else to read it. Off couse GGS being a holy book has its inherent respect but we didn't believe in the rituals of airconditioning it, making it go to sleep, wake it up, providing it heat in winter specifically etc. If sikhs do it than that's fine, we have no issue with it. If GGS is a shared granth than one group can't enforce their mariada on everybody since sharing inherently implies that it is respected and worshipped equally by all. We addressed Ravidass as Guru and sikhs didn't like it so it is better to take own route.

If I take your analogy of cutting the limbs than how many limbs Guru Nanak Dev Ji cut. Satguru Naamdev, Satguru Sain, Baba Sheikh Farid, Bhagat Rama Nand were all senior to Guru Nanak Dev ji and obviously weren't alive when Guru nanak took their bani and included in GGS. How did he ask them? Moreover, GGS is a compiled Granth and Guru nanak Dev or Sikhs, I am afrain to say, don't get ownership of Guru ravidass Bani or other bani of other's saints. What if kabir panthis come and ask you to give back Satguru Kabir's bani? So analogy of yours, I am sorry to say is more based on your personal feelings.

You may argue that it is living but then again, it is not for us. For us Ravidassias it has been used as a reason to murder innocent ravidassias right in its front. Now which living guru would allow that...? Where was the living guru when innocent worshippers were stabbed in Vienna or a child's throat was almost slashed with gatra sahib ji and held at ransom. You may talk about beadbi but true living guru would never allow cold blooded murder of anybody. That is not the job of a guru but that is the job of a blood thirty monster. Living guru forgives and leaves it up to almighty to take care of things.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

harjits4, as I pointed out earlier, it is likely a good move that Dera Ballan take their own path as clearly they were disrespecting Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. Although it is strange that they want to now wish to disregard the same Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that they have used for years to amass their wealth and following. Thankfully, they do not speak for the Ravidass community at large and it appears from some reports that not for all their followers either.

Also as pointed out in another post, the bani of the Bhagats you have named is unique to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Not cut and paste as your Dera Ballan intend too.

In respect of violence, I do not know exactly what took place in Vienna although I am aware that Dera Ballan leaders have continuously disrespected Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji dispite requests to refrain from doing so. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji was and never has been used as a reason to murder and being as you are on a Sikh forum, I would suggest you control your fingers when you type such things. Apart from hearing abour Ramanand, I was not at Vienna nor have I heard anything about the 'allegations' you are making. However you seem to overlook that your own Dera Ballan followers didn't seem to have any problem whilst commiting violence, rioting and looting as well as burning the same Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that contains the bani of Bhagat Ravidass. It is evidence of 'hatred' rather than disrespecting 'rituals'. I would suggest that blame falls squarely on the Dera Ballans leaders.

It is clear that you are only this forum to stir up conflict.

BigChann,

Jai Gurudev !

if you think I am stirring up conflict than it is not true. What conflict I could stir up...? It's only bloody computer.

By the way based on you notions of disrespect etc..let me ask couple questions and everybody may respond in their own way..

Q. 1.

a. Do you follow bani in SGGS as living guru (bani guru guru hai bani) ?

b. Or do you follow 1430 pages of the GGS as living guru (not what is written on it)?

Q.2

a. Do you follow what is written in GGS in 1604 as a guidance for Sikhs ?

b. or do you follow Sikh Mariada written in 1920s...?

Regards,

Harjit Singh

Q. 1.

Each letter of Gurbani is our Guru. Where Bani Is contained it is the Body of Our Guru So Both.

Q.2.

With regards to marayada for Guru Granth Sahib it is the more or so the maryada followed since 1604 (Today satkaar for bani has decreased marayada then was more stictly followed). Guru Arjan Devji gave up his bed for The bani and used to sleep on the floor.

Guru is for the world. But if satkaar is not present it is the duty of the Sikhs of the Guru to stop beadbi . So salute to the singhs in Vienna.

Thanks Gurdaspuria Ji:

Q1.

Then

how do you view the sanskar of body of guru when GGS has grown old (the paper it is written on has deteriorated in condition)...?

Does ever a feeling come to you that when several bodies of gurus are burnt together that guru's body is basically no more...?

How do you view the bani which is written in newspapers and those newspapers are strewn around people's feet ?

Or does a bani only become guru when it is included as a whole in GGS...? In other words, is it acceptable for people to have partial word of guru on any medium?

Do you think that when Guru Gobind Singh said "Consider Bani as Guru", he essentially menat that whatever Bani says is the word of Guru?

Did he say that Granth is also guru's body..?

Btw, I may add that "Guru Granth ji manyo, Pargat guran ki de...." is not in the GGS and is not attributed to Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

Q2.

Since you mentioned satkar was more strict at the time for gurus or mariada was more strict, is there any documentation available from that mariada or any traditions/rituals etc.?

Is the concept of beadbi (what is beadbi and what is not?) stemming up from Rehit Mariada of 1920s or from the gurbani...?

Your salute to sings is your view but they are now rotting in austrian jail and they have also written a letter of apology to dera saint and asked for forgiveness. I am not 100% sure whether it is true but have heard that it is letter full of shame and seems to be genuine.

Ans 1

The sanskar of damaged swaroop of Guru Granth sahib is done in same way as we do for human beings. The Guru's body that is paper and cardboard may be cremated but the word is not cremated as word is a jot which never dies and wil stay forever. Normally baani should not be printed on newspaper and magazines...but if some people do...they should ensure that the paper should not be thrown like common paper...as a sikh if one comes across such thing pick that paper and destroy it properly...which sikhs normaly do if they come across such situations...!

it is acceptable to keep partial word of the guru like in japji sahib Gutka and other baanis..you can take baani out of SGGS in the form of Gutka sahib...but if you make separate Granth of that baani, say "ABC" granth than it is not acceptable... Let Guru Granth sahib be the medium of all the baanis.

you dont wanna believe in "Guru Granth ji maneyo, pargat Guran ki deh", then I would like to tell you that Guru Arjan dev ji Maharaj did the Parkash of Adi Granth sahib in the same way as it is done today...moreover there are so many other baanis like benti chopai, jaap sahib etc., which are not there in SGGS, but these baanis are an integral part of sikh nitnem...further read bhatt vahi where Guru Gobind Singh himself stated that Guru Granth sahib be the next Guru and bowed his head infront of it the way sikhs do today...Now can you and you dera defy Guru Gobind Singh ji..!