Videos Of Dasam Granth Debate At Toronto

[Sarbat da Pala]

Very nice....

[GPS]

http://www.panthic.org/articles/5216

TORONTO KALA-AFGHANI JEONVALA WASHED-OUT IN DEBATE WITH PANTHIC SINGHS

PANTHIC.ORG | Published on February 10, 2010

Courtesy: Sur Sagar TV, Toronto Toronto, Canada - A loud and boisterous debate took place last weekend in Toronto between Panthic Singhs and an anti-Dasam Granth nindak, Gurcharan Brar Jeonvala. As predicted, the Panthic Singhs soundly refuted every point Jeonvala raised and in turn presented many irrefutable proofs in support of the authenticity of Sri Dasam Granth.

Jeonvala, the mind behind numerous anti-Panthic articles and websites originating from Toronto, had been regularly challenging supporters of Sri Dasam Granth to debate with him, and thus had become the de-facto spokesperson for the local Kala-Afghani lobby.

Whereas Jeonvala represented the anti-Panthic lobby, Bhai Sukhbir Singh and Bhai Sukhmander Singh were backed by pro-Panthic organizations, such as the Akhand Kirtan Jatha (Gurdwara Tapoban Sahib), DamDami Taksal, Shahbaaz Khalsa to bring forth the Panthic viewpoint.

The debate was aired on Sur Sagar TV’s ‘Bhakhday Maslay” weekly show hosted by Ravinder Singh Pannu. Sur Sagar TV is Toronto areas’ oldest and longest running Punjabi TV channel and is widely watched by the local Punjabi population.

Bhai Sukhbir Singh began the debate by explaining the history surrounding Sri Dasam Granth and the historical texts which support it including the writings of Bhai Jaita or Bhai Jeevan Singh, Bansavalinama P: 10 by Kesar Singh Chhiber and Guru Kian Sakhian by Sarup Singh Kaushish. Bhai Sukhbir Singh further established that no Sikh scholar including Bhai Kanh Singh Nabha, Gyani Dit Singh or Prof. Sahib Singh ever opposed Dasam Granth. Furthermore, and most importantly Dasam Granth is an inseparable part of the Nitnem and Ardas which are recited daily by Sikhs.

In an attempt to prove his point, Jeonvala began to quote some historical texts out of context and distort history but was cut off by the host of the show Mr. Pannu, for his intentional misinterpretations.

English words in Sri Dasam Granth?

When asked to present any proof to support his allegation that Sri Dasam Granth was not the work of Sri Guru Gobind Singh, Jeonvala attempted to quote verses which he stated contained English words such as ‘near’ and ‘lady’. The Panthic Singhs left Jeonvala without any answer when they showed him that the word “lady” was in fact “layndee” which means coward and is not an English word in any way.

Further, when the same methodology is used on the bani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, the Singhs showed that several words were common in English and Punjabi such as the word “day”. The debate took a humorous turn when Jeonvala was reduced to repeating obscenities when he could not explain the tuk :

ਦੇਇ ਕਿਵਾੜ ਅਨਿਕ ਪੜਦੇ ਮਹਿ ਪਰ ਦਾਰਾ ਸੰਗਿ ਫਾਕੈ ॥ (ਰਾਗ ਸੋਰਠਿ, ਅੰਗ: ੬੧੬)

Jaap Sahib from Shiv Puraan?

Jeonvala’s ignorant arguments took another twisted turn when he attempted to state that contents of Sri Dasam Granth were copied from Shiv Puraan and Markande Puraan. When asked to substantiate this allegation, he was unable to do so and could only state that one line of Shiv Puraan reads “Kaal Kaal” which he ridiculously suggested was proof that Sri Jaap Sahib was copied from, drawing laughter from the Panthic Singhs and even the studio members. Intrestingly, not too long ago, another pro-Kala-Afghani, Inder Ghagga, had claimed that Jaap Sahib was from Markande Puraan, like Jeonvala he too failed to provide any evidence backing this preposterous claim.

When none of Jeonvala ’s arguments were successful, he resorted to plain name calling, slandering Sri Dasam Bani as “kanjar kavita”, resulting in demands for him to retract his statement by the host Mr. Pannu. Having no other choice, Jeonvala meekly agreed to retract his statement.

Some of the key points made by the Panthic Singhs in the debate included:

• Sri Dasam Granth Sahib is a collection of various works of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, including : Bachittar Natak Granth, Chabees Avtar Granth, and CharitroPakhyian Granth.
• Sri Dasam Granth Sahib was also known as Dasam Patshah Ji Ka Granth, and was standardized for off-set printing in the late 1800s by the Panth.
• Amrit and Nitnem Banis are documented by eye-accounts written in the Bhatt Vahees, and Bhai Jaita Ji (Bhai Jeevan Singh Ji) writes his eye-witness account as:

ਪਾਂਚ ਕਕਾਰ ਸੰਪੂਰਣ ਦੇਖਿ ਕੈ

ਯਾਚਕ ਸਿਖਹਿ ਸੰਮੁਖ ਬੈਠੀਜੈ।

ਜਲੋ ਬਤਾਸੇ ਲੋਹ ਪਾਤਰ ਮਹਿਂ ਡਾਰਿ ਕੈ

ਛਹਿ ਸਿਖ ਆਸਨ ਬੀਰ ਲਵੀਜੈ।

ਹਾਥ ਪ੍ਰਥਮ ਸਿੰਘ ਖੰਡੇ ਕਉ ਲੇਕਰ

ਜਲੋ ਪਤਾਸੇ ਕਉ ਖੂਬ ਮਿਲੀਜੈ।

ਜਪੁ ਕੋ ਪਾਠ ਕਰਹਿ ਸੰਗ ਤਿਹ ਸਿਖ

ਪਾਤਰਿ ਦੂਸਰ ਹਾਥ ਧੀਰਜੈ।੧੧੨।

ਜਪੁ ਜਾਪੁ ਸਵੈਯੇ ਚੌਪਈ ਅਨੰਦ ਕੋ

ਪਾਠ ਸੋਂ ਪਾਹੁਲ ਤਿਆਰ ਕਰੀਜੈ।

ਪਾਂਓ ਚੁਲੇ ਮੁਖ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਸੁ ਯਾਜਕ

ਏਤ ਜੀ ਨੇਤਰ ਕੇਸ ਪਵੀਜੈ।੧੧੩॥

• Bhai Mani Singh Ji's letter to Mata Sundari Ji regarding the compilation of Sri Dasam Granth is authentic, and metals nibs did exist in India during that time. It was also pointed out that the style of writing by Bhai Mani Singh Ji was similar to the style used by Guru Har Rai Sahib.
• It was also pointed that the real intention of people doubting Sri Dasam Granth is to reject the concept of Amrit-Sanchar (Khanday-ki-Pahul) and thus eliminate AmritDharis from the Panth and this is exactly in line with the Indian Government's long term plan to marginalize and eliminate Sikhism from India. They referenced the Baat Cheet in the Indian Army Gazette No. 153, 1984 published stated:
  “...Amritdharis, who are dangerous people and pledged to commit murders, arson and acts of terrorism, should immediately be brought the notice of authorities. These people might appear harmless from outside but they are basically committed to terrorism...”

• Sri Dasam Granth condemns the worship of devi devtas. The RSS would never accept such a Granth that exposed this truth to the world. In actuality, it is the RSS and Indian Government agencies who want the Sikhs to condemn Sri Dasam Granth, and these detractors are working at their behest.

The Panthic Singhs asked Jeonvala whether he would classify Baba Deep Singh, Bhai Mani Singh, Sirdar Kapur Singh IAS, Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale, Bhai Sukhdev Singh Babbar, Bhai Anokh Singh Babbar RSS agents? As predicted, Jeonvala again failed to answer the query put forth by the Singhs.

Whisked away to safety

It is obvious that the disgraced Jeonvala could not keep his composure throughout the debate and failed to have a sensible discussion with the other participants. It was reported that due to his outbursts against Sri Dasam Granth, an irate group of Sikhs had arrived outside the TV studios near the end of the debate. Fearing for his safety, Jeonvala was escorted out to a vehicle by the studio management, and whisked away quickly out of sight.

For the Kala-Afghani lobby, Toronto’s truck-driver ‘scholar’ Jeonvala had now become a liability instead an asset.

[Only five]

Thanks to Sukhbir Singh for showing the true colors of this Anti-Sri Dasam Granth Sahib ji people. At first I thought it would be an actual debate where there would be some what confusing terms or concepts presented by Jeonvala that Sukhbir Singh could clear up, but 10 or so minutes in it just became humorous, where Jenovala was presenting one of the weakest arguement that not even a a 10 year old would think of presenting because even they would know it is very fooish and illogical to do so. Even though Jeonvala's side was illogical and foolish Sukhbir Singh still answered the questions with proof at every point.

Everyone should watch this debate and see where this anti-Sri Dasam Granth people are coming from. They make up lies and manipulate one or two words to serve their agenda and when they are caught then they run with their tail between their legs

Once again, thanks to Sukhbir Singh and every other Singh that exposed Jeonvala.

[GPS]

Bhai Mani Singh Ji's letter to Mata Sundari Ji regarding the compilation of Sri Dasam Granth is authentic, and metals nibs did exist in India during that time. It was also pointed out that the style of writing by Bhai Mani Singh Ji was similar to the style used by Guru Har Rai Sahib.

Most of anti dasam granth sahib brigade is illiterate.They know nothing about world in general.

First metallic nib( made of copper) was found among ruins of pompey in 79 AD. Metallic nibs were used in Egypt by 858 AD.

Portguese were the ones to introduce metallic nibs in india in their colony Goa.This was done during Guru period itself.

I am most pleased that we have young khalsa turning the tide on these enemies of sikhs.They read Dasam Granth on regular basis.Tapoban singhs do path of bachitra natak and akal ustat as part of nitnem.

[AK-47]

Fantastic!! I have watched most of the videos and was really really impressed with the way Sukhbir Singh Ji spoke and handled himself. His knowledge was brill and I liked the little digs he gave now and then as well lol they were needed!! (i bet he the singhs felt like punchin the fool at some points, especially when he was swearing!)

Fantastic work again and well done to the singhs, benti can they make videos where they answer all the questions these jokers are putting forward against Dasam Granth Sahib Ji?

On the other hand, was watching Sikh Channel evening discussion and was very dissapointed that the nihang singh, pyara singh i think they said his name was, wouldnt openly condemn prof darshan and his attempts to insult nitnem and dasam bani. To see a nihang in full bana being political and not openly doing vichaar even when constantly being asked to by the presenter was sad to see. We should not be afraid for whatever reason to stand up for nitnem banis!!

Well done again to the singhs in these videos, maharajh kirpa karan.

[GPS]

Fantastic work again and well done to the singhs, benti can they make videos where they answer all the questions these jokers are putting forward against Dasam Granth Sahib Ji?

Are you referring to questions in the debate vidoes?

On the other hand, was watching Sikh Channel evening discussion and was very dissapointed that the nihang singh, pyara singh i think they said his name was, wouldnt openly condemn prof darshan and his attempts to insult nitnem and dasam bani. To see a nihang in full bana being political and not openly doing vichaar even when constantly being asked to by the presenter was sad to see. We should not be afraid for whatever reason to stand up for nitnem banis!!

Is he from Canada? I know one pyara singh Nihung who opposed this gurnindak darshu ragi at hamburg Germany.

See that pyara singh's voice in the end

[AK-47]

How on earth is he subty trying to start an arguement? What he has said is correct, as many of the local young singhs associated with the akj have themselves said that they dont know a great deal about dasam granth and were unable to comment on the issue. I thought the videos were brilliant and would recommend everyone to watch them. And again i repeat the words of k_zindabad, if you consider yourself a member of the akj, then please also listen to these videos as they are from singhs from within the jatha who have done some amazing veechar and this stuff needs to be learnt. I also feel that the singhs did something i wouldnt have been able to do (apart from the amazing veechar - and that is keep calm, so respect for that as well!

These videos are a great contribution to that effort. Another thing to note is that sometimes we hear that we shouldnt read anything other then gurbani, but it was through reading the extra pothia and religious texts that Sukhbir Singh was able to debate and refute the false claims of that anti sikh paagal.

GPS - yes, if singhs could have answers to the typical questions that people raise then that would be great. Similar to what some of the dasam granth websites have done, but in video format with all the extra quotes and evidence, big seva, but someone smart enough needs to do it!

im not sure if it was the same guy, he didnt have a farla, but the whole show was a bit odd.

gps - ur right, it is the same voice! On the show he just didnt want to talk about it, even in the audio u provided, u can just hear him saying, 'lets not go there'. He seems to be tryin go to keep the peace. But as a nihang singh, you'd hope and expect a stronger stance. Maybe he's just trying to stop arguments getting worse? who knows.

[GPS]

AK47

Let us ignore what extreme singh said above.It is quite possible he is some trouble creator and does not belong to any organization.

Tapoban singhs are staunch believers in Dasam Bani and do nitnem of Bachitra natak.They have done a wonderful job that many of us will not dare even.

They have turned the tide on these anti sikh agents like Jeonwala.Jeonwala is the one who had become teacher of darshan ragi and was his advisor on Dasma granth.How misguided they are on dasam granth,These videos tell us.

[Sarbat da Pala]

But still, the Anti Dasam Granth ppl will never accept, that the Granth is telling something else and they are saying something else. Aslong the Jamdoods don't get them hehe they will never listen.

[Prabhsharan]

lol wow quoting 'kal kale' from shiv puran and comparing it with jaap sahib BASELESS this bujurg has just gone nuts

and i thought these nindaks at least don't do kintu parantu on nitnem bani's

waheguru