An Adult Discussion: On The Impact Of Muslim Demographics At Present And In Future.

[Matheen]

You can't apply your points to the entire Muslim community in the UK. There are small fanatic groups, but on the whole, there is no problem. 'Generalisation' isn't a cool word to use, as you put it. As soon as you place generalisation into an argument, it becomes illogical.

A community didn't blow up buses or planes, it was individuals. The ones who didn't kill themselves were found and arrested.

Their sharia courts only apply to civil cases, and if they choose to use them. There were already similar Jewish courts.

I know there is a problem with some sectors of their community and some of their ideologies, but they have to be countered in a logical way so that you don't make it an 'us' vs 'them' scenario. If you do that, you're no different to a racist.

[babbar_sher]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia

[wakeupUK]

If we want our own country we have to do something about it, and pray to God for energy to achieve this I do not think God will show us the light and lead the way in terms of Gods direct action but we have to lift our own fingers and very much pray also. I think we are a long way off getting are own country we are as a nation are in no state to physically fight. We now have to play political, legal, financial, cultural and media battles to achieve what we want and increase our population, to rightfully get what we are owed. We need to build power-bases in the west and progress to new heights to obtain power. I think the only way we will get all our lands back is only via certain political and government downfalls in Asia and/or wars between Indian, China, Pakistan and Russia where all four of these nations are destroyed in terms of there military so that if there were a land of Sikhs were to be born these four nations could not take military actions. Whilst we live in the West we have to know our enemies and defend ourselves, it easy to say put it in Gods hands or wait for own land, but we live in the here and now and have to be realistic .

I read this forum quite a bit, and often read comments about Politics in Punjab, from what I can gather Badal etc are seen in a negative light. I would like to put some comments forward.

- Any Politian weather Sikh or not in Punjab or in the west, cannot be biased towards his or her own community ( although we fully know this goes on everywhere)

- If Badal is seen to be biased for the Sikh community he simply will be made politically innate by central government. Therefore maybe he is purposefully showing that he is pro-government when he is actually very much pro-Sikh.

Can you outline what Badal has done wrong….. (probably a long list)

[wakeupUK]

Matheen,

Do you live in the UK I do not think you do, the majority of the UK Sikh community specially the young understand what problems the Muslim community has brought to the UK. You keep on saying I am generalising, this is because the majority of the Muslim community is hardline. The Muslim community does not compromise, its there way or the highway. Do you know there are over 2000 Muslims under surveillance by MI5, how can you say this is a minority, did you know a high proportion of UK Muslims actually support the UK bombing and the Taliban. The Sharia court civil or not are just the beginning in 50 years they will want their own state within the UK.

I want to know what we can do, as we know the majority of Muslim are hardliners, if a community is aggressive how can anyone say that actual community is calm and peaceful, its just like saying if the colour of a car is Blue, we stupidly say it is Red.

[Matheen]

I do live in the UK and have lived in Birmingham (next to a Mosque, lol), Slough and London.

Again, you say that the majority of the Muslim community is 'hardline'. Which survey did you carry out? How do you know how many people are under surveillance by the MI5? No Muslims that I know approve of the bombings - in fact they strongly condemn those actions.

You are right that something needs to be done to counter ideologies of hate but condemning an entire religion or community just gives more fuel to the extremists within them. Read what Gurbani has to say on the matter of tolerance for different religions.

Of course, if you do find yourself being attacked or bullied, then you must defend yourself. I'm not disputing that, I just have a problem with labelling an entire community because of what a few of them have done. That is no different to people in India who see every Amritdhari as a terrorist or to people who see a turban and immediately think 'taliban', etc.

Our puratan Rehatnamas tell us to be careful of certain things with respect to Islam e.g. not eating from Muslims (this is VERY important, even today), not getting involved with their women etc. But they never teach to wipe out the community. Gurbani actually gives advise to Muslims telling them how to be better Muslims.

[wakeupUK]

If you are living in a Muslim ghetto and you have not experienced any friction, you a are minority. Where abouts do you live in Birmingham ? I have lived in Birmingham in a heavily dominated Muslim area for years, and these are not the experiences I have had and a lot of other Sikhs have had, they have been all negative.

Again, you say that the majority of the Muslim community is 'hardline'. Which survey did you carry out – see the evidence

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article1415550.ece

How do you know how many people are under surveillance by the MI5? These are facts, I have not just my own personal opinions. See the link :

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-415585/1600-young-British-Muslims-MI5-surveillance-plotting-terror.html

No Muslims that I know approve of the bombings - in fact they strongly condemn those actions. – Have you ever thought they may be lying to you, did you know Islam actually preaches that lying to further the Islamic religion is accepted and is not a sin, could it be you are naïve and gullible.

See the link:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1494648/One-in-four-Muslims-sympathises-with-motives-of-terrorists.html

I am not advocating the wiping out of a community at all and I respect all religions like I said, and I am not a racists, but if particular parts of the Koran are interrupted in a negative way by the majority of Muslims and preach extremism this is not my problem, but the problem of the Muslim community.

Why does puratan Rehatnamas state not to get involved with Muslim women or eat from Muslims , can you explain this.

[AK47 JATHA LION]

Is the topic starter suggesting that we enter a "Breeding Competition" with Islam?

This is funny but thats what it sounded like.

On a serious note, I understand the topic starter's concerns with the rapidly growing population of Islam. Thats because muslim families usually tend have alot of kids.

Sikh families on the other hand usually tend not to have more than 2 from what I've seen generally.

But dont get too worried because Sikhs have allways been a minority population in the World compared to the other Major World religions.

But its not like each one of those Muslims is going to cause a problem for Sikhs. Its not like they're enlisted in an Islamic army which is crusading from land to land like back in the day.

If that were the case then I would be worried.

But some good statistics to bear in mind about demographics.

Sikhs families need to have a minimum of 2 kids per couple (when possibe), to avoid extinction in the long run (future generations to come).

We're not in danger of extinction just yet. Muslim numbers will soar in the coming years worldwide.

[wakeupUK]

Ak47 –

You are missing an important and serious point. If the Muslim population continues to increase and our population to remain the same, what does this mean for the Sikh community? Obviously in a democracy such as the UK, every vote is counted and if a particular community such as Muslims increase to high population then they may hold the deciding crucial swing vote for political parties to come to office (Conservatives, Liberal Democrats) therefore these parties will most likely ponder to the Muslim community, just like they are now but more so.

When have you ever seen any Politian lobby or try to win votes from the Rastafarian community, this is because the community is small in number in the UK. We are all aware of the Yugoslavia break-up, and the Muslims conflict there, did you know that the Muslim community is not indigousnous to Yugoslavia, but their ancestors were invaders to the area, and now they have there own land, could you see this happening in the UK in 100 years, the question you have to ask is “ Why can’t it happen”. How do we know what we know what will happen in future maybe they will crusade against us, are'nt they doing something simlar now with the bombings. We Sikhs do not have to be the minority we can be the majority!

The census is important part of policy making, if there are more Muslims counted in terms of percentage then more resources and money will be given to them and more Muslim friendly polices created which will most likely mean a disadvantage to other smaller minority communities like Sikhs.

As a good proportion of Muslims are hardliners at present, it is most likely this will continue in future and their numbers increase, as we know the Sikh Muslim relation has not been cohesive in the past and I do not see this changing in future. In terms of politics there was a programme on a couple of nights ago on channel 4 suggesting or maybe even proving that Muslim extremists are been voted into senior local and national positions so that they can be over-biased for the Muslim community.

As we all are concerned about the organised brainwashing/blackmailing of Sikhs to convert to Islam and we all know this happens, and it’s a Muslims duty to convert a Kafir, that way he or she will goto heaven (Muslims actually believe this) to put is simply at present there may be five Muslims trying to convert someone maybe using the peer-group method in future there might be ten do you want this for future generations of Sikhs.

I know you were joking about the breeding competition comment, but if you look at Muslim population growth, then what do you think can be done to limit the growth, because I do not want to live in a Muslim dominated country more than it is now, either we increase our populations or we pass laws stating that if a family is on benefits that they will only receive benefits for two children, because we all know the Muslims community have a high proportion of people on benefits and have large families, why should working people have to pay for excess children whose family are on benefits, when working people have to plan a family based on their salary not on how much they can get from the government.

Us Sikhs always talk about quality is better than quality, but population growth have benefits, at the least there will be more Sikhs walking around whats wrong with that.

Can we lobby the government, to stop Muslims immigrating to the UK, and return recent Muslim asylum seekers and illegals to their homeland or to the nearest safe Muslim country.

I know what some of what I have stated may sound like something out of a sci-fi movie but I am willing to discuss my comments thoroughly.

[kharaghsingh]

Ak47 –

You are missing an important and serious point. If the Muslim population continues to increase and our population to remain the same, what does this mean for the Sikh community? Obviously in a democracy such as the UK, every vote is counted and if a particular community such as Muslims increase to high population then they may hold the deciding crucial swing vote for political parties to come to office (Conservatives, Liberal Democrats) therefore these parties will most likely ponder to the Muslim community, just like they are now but more so.

When have you ever seen any Politian lobby or try to win votes from the Rastafarian community, this is because the community is small in number in the UK. We are all aware of the Yugoslavia break-up, and the Muslims conflict there, did you know that the Muslim community is not indigousnous to Yugoslavia, but their ancestors were invaders to the area, and now they have there own land, could you see this happening in the UK in 100 years, the question you have to ask is " Why can't it happen". How do we know what we know what will happen in future maybe they will crusade against us, are'nt they doing something simlar now with the bombings. We Sikhs do not have to be the minority we can be the majority!

The census is important part of policy making, if there are more Muslims counted in terms of percentage then more resources and money will be given to them and more Muslim friendly polices created which will most likely mean a disadvantage to other smaller minority communities like Sikhs.

As a good proportion of Muslims are hardliners at present, it is most likely this will continue in future and their numbers increase, as we know the Sikh Muslim relation has not been cohesive in the past and I do not see this changing in future. In terms of politics there was a programme on a couple of nights ago on channel 4 suggesting or maybe even proving that Muslim extremists are been voted into senior local and national positions so that they can be over-biased for the Muslim community.

As we all are concerned about the organised brainwashing/blackmailing of Sikhs to convert to Islam and we all know this happens, and it's a Muslims duty to convert a Kafir, that way he or she will goto heaven (Muslims actually believe this) to put is simply at present there may be five Muslims trying to convert someone maybe using the peer-group method in future there might be ten do you want this for future generations of Sikhs.

I know you were joking about the breeding competition comment, but if you look at Muslim population growth, then what do you think can be done to limit the growth, because I do not want to live in a Muslim dominated country more than it is now, either we increase our populations or we pass laws stating that if a family is on benefits that they will only receive benefits for two children, because we all know the Muslims community have a high proportion of people on benefits and have large families, why should working people have to pay for excess children whose family are on benefits, when working people have to plan a family based on their salary not on how much they can get from the government.

Us Sikhs always talk about quality is better than quality, but population growth have benefits, at the least there will be more Sikhs walking around whats wrong with that.

Can we lobby the government, to stop Muslims immigrating to the UK, and return recent Muslim asylum seekers and illegals to their homeland or to the nearest safe Muslim country.

I know what some of what I have stated may sound like something out of a sci-fi movie but I am willing to discuss my comments thoroughly.

I agree with the original poster wakeupUK. I think he has a valid point.

Most of the Muslims in the UK are either terrorists or support them in one way or another we shouldnt have to provide evidence for that because we've all seen what's been happening around the world by these terrorists, and unless we agree with the stuff that's been happening or if we are supporting them too then we should not have to back all of our points with a fact to discuss this issue.

We are called racist for calling them extremists and for saying most muslims are terrorists, but it is ok for them to go blow up a plane or train? This does not seem fair. I do not think anyone here thinks it is okay to blow up a train or plane or do anything of the sort, but if we are being asked for proof, then that means there is an element of weakness in our points, or should i say the reader thinks there is an element of weakness and the argument is not strong enough for them. I would say if someone even doubts 1% that most muslims are not terrorists or ar not supporting the terrorists in some way then they have some serious issues.

And yes, most of their community is not peaceful because if they were we wouldnt have all bombings etc. so it is a good idea to stop them from migrating to the UK. But i did hear the migration process has gone tougher now than before but i not to really sure if that is only from people coming from india, or from other countries.

Just out of interest does anyone know how many muslims there are in this country? Like the latest figure or something, i've seen the figures starting from 3 million in the uk and some figures say 600,000 in london alone.

[babbar_sher]

I agree with the original poster wakeupUK. I think he has a valid point.

Most of the Muslims in the UK are either terrorists or support them in one way or another we shouldnt have to provide evidence for that because we've all seen what's been happening around the world by these terrorists, and unless we agree with the stuff that's been happening or if we are supporting them too then we should not have to back all of our points with a fact to discuss this issue.

We are called racist for calling them extremists and for saying most muslims are terrorists, but it is ok for them to go blow up a plane or train? This does not seem fair. I do not think anyone here thinks it is okay to blow up a train or plane or do anything of the sort, but if we are being asked for proof, then that means there is an element of weakness in our points, or should i say the reader thinks there is an element of weakness and the argument is not strong enough for them. I would say if someone even doubts 1% that most muslims are not terrorists or ar not supporting the terrorists in some way then they have some serious issues.

And yes, most of their community is not peaceful because if they were we wouldnt have all bombings etc. so it is a good idea to stop them from migrating to the UK. But i did hear the migration process has gone tougher now than before but i not to really sure if that is only from people coming from india, or from other countries.

Just out of interest does anyone know how many muslims there are in this country? Like the latest figure or something, i've seen the figures starting from 3 million in the uk and some figures say 600,000 in london alone.