Attack Renews Sikh Dagger Debate

[Only five]

damn don't know who are the bigger idiots the tea party in america or these guys (and im talking about both sides)

their grown mature men acting like bunch of dumb teenagers, damn

Yes Gursikhs like Sant Jarnail Singh ji Khalsa are idoits and you sherepunjab93 are the smartest man in the world. Have you got me the answer to when Sant ji became a threat to Indian gov't. I have been waiting for that date. Since you say Harmandir Sahib was attacked by Indira Gandhi because Sant ji went in and terrorist need to be taken out. If people are wondering where all of this came from. Well Sherepunjab has been saying through pm the above. He hates Sant ji with passion and ask him about the other Gurdwaras that were attacked on the same day as Harmandir Sahib then he wants proof. He wants names of the Gurdwaras, but when it comes to propaganda coming from the Indiara Gandhi side he does not ask for facts or provide facts, just accepts it.

why can't we in our community have a civil debate without insulting and attacking eachother

Your idea of civil is bashing a great SaintSoldier. Yeah, I know your going to cry and cry, your attacking me, but your stand on Sant ji is revelant here. It shows where all this hatred of yours is coming from. Do you just hate Sant ji or Amritdharis all together?

didn't anyone learn their lessons from the embarrasment and humilation our community faced during the table and chairs debate which made the evening news wiith ppl footages of ppl pulling eachothers hair in the gurdwara

Political oriented and this is why you can't understand Sikhi stand on self-defense and respecting Gursikhs that laid their lives down. Instead of reading your so called academic journals, pick up a gutka and read Gurbani. Put your hatred toward Amritdharis aside.

[GPS]

Only five ji

They are propagandists whose job is to present distorted picture.

This dumb head should know that sangat has kicked out those who disobeyed akal takhat hukam

on tables and chairs in a BC gurudwara.It takes time to get right atmosphere but truth triumphs in the end.

[Only five]

This is all the doing of Ragi D and Co.

First they try and strip us of the Bir Rass spirit of Dasmesh Pita's Bani.

Then they provoke us by using the most vile language to slander Guru Ji's Bani in order to get such a reaction, which in turn will now cause the debate that this article refers to.

If successful, they will have then stripped us of one of the Panj Kakkars, thus further emasculating Guru's Khalsa.

I have no doubts that this is their devious plan.

The only way is to fight back and rebuke their lies. Draw media attention to what the truth is, and how they are the ones that are going against the tenets of Sikhism.

Doesn't he say he believes in SGPC Sikh Rehat Maryada? 5K's are panthic parvaan, he's not against that.

Does say that, but then also says the 5 Banis read at first Amrit sachaar and has been read ever since then is not Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji's bani(Jaap Sahib, Chaupai Sahib, Swayav

Here is a link, it's the fourth audio down

http://patshahi10.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=310:darshan-singh-ragi-performs-at-rochester&catid=49:keertan&Itemid=66

Also Mangat is using the same strategy as Darshan Laal to confuse people and say he is right. Mangat is using this so called Kirpan being discussed and banned as a cover. He says it shouldn't be banned, but he invited Darshan Laal to a private Gurdwara. Yes you read that clearly. The Sikh Lehr Gurdwara is a private Gurdwara own by Mangat and his associates. But back to the point he(mangat) invited Darshan Laal who is excommunicated from the Sikh Panth and says the Amrit Sanchaar is false. How can a man that invites a person that doesn't even believe in the 5 Banis be in support of the Kirpan. It just doesn't make sense.

Don't buy into their political games.

Trust me when I say this, these guys are all bad, even if you think they are doing good, that good is being used to achieve a bigger goal, which is destroy Sikhis roots.

[Only five]

here is a more balanced look at it.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/restricting-kirpans-would-inflict-wound-on-tolerance/article1526853/

And all you Sikhs were having panic attacks for no reason.

It's not called propaganda for no reason.

These Darshan Laal followers are trying to put fear into the Khalsa Panth that looks fear straight in the eye and destroys it. Chaupai Sahib anyone

[Sher Khalsa]

GPS. Just because you talk more and post more doesn't make your view more right. I've been reading these threads and anyone who posts a different view than yours - you label them a kala afghana supporter or a darshan ragi supporter. From what you have posted you are not properly informed about the events that led up to and transpired at and after the protest. At the end of the day, the truth can be hidden, distorted and misrepresented - but the truth still remains the truth. What happened that day is what happened no matter how you massage it.

[Only five]

Just to show you how ridiculous this whole propaganda is we need to look at the criminal Code of Canada.

Some people are aware of it, but for majority they have no clue, even what the criminal Code is. In there it say anyone can carry a knife that has a blade 3 to 4 inches long and in some province it could be longer to different laws. So basically a pocket knife can be carried by any average joe.

There are a certain restrictions that a certain type of knife like a switchblade knife can't be carried, but this is really immaterial, here.

Further to show Darshan laal and followers propaganda, we need to look back into the protest that took place in the UK. We have followers of Darshan Laal saying in the newspapers that no voilence broke out there. Now this is a complete lie. There was violence because Darshan Laal goons used wood sticks and metal rods to streak Singhs.

The reason why Darshan Laal is saying there was no violence in UK is because then he can say only the violence started here in Canada and previous protest were peaceful, therefore meaning I am innocent of knowing such things like this would happen(violence breaking out). The Gurdwara that invited him, Sikh lehar centre (members) and Darshan laal can be both charged with criminal offense. These goons knew violence would break out, like in Uk, and they still held an event that would disturb the peace here in Canada.

[Sher Khalsa]

Some people are aware of it, but for majority they have no clue, even what the criminal Code is. In there it say anyone can carry a knife that has a blade 3 to 4 inches long and in some province it could be longer to different laws. So basically a pocket knife can be carried by any average joe.

How is that relevant? If it is relevant please paste the relevant section of the Criminal Code so we can look at it. Also, the Criminal Code of Canada is a federal statute and, as such, applies equally to all provinces.

Further to show Darshan laal and followers propaganda, we need to look back into the protest that took place in the UK. We have followers of Darshan Laal saying in the newspapers that no voilence broke out there. Now this is a complete lie. There was violence because Darshan Laal goons used wood sticks and metal rods to streak Singhs.

The reason why Darshan Laal is saying there was no violence in UK is because then he can say only the violence started here in Canada and previous protest were peaceful, therefore meaning I am innocent of knowing such things like this would happen(violence breaking out). The Gurdwara that invited him, Sikh lehar centre (members) and Darshan laal can be both charged with criminal offense. These goons knew violence would break out, like in Uk, and they still held an event that would disturb the peace here in Canada.

Please post the relevant section of the Criminal Code under which Sikh Lehar Centre/Members or Darshan Laal can be charged and explain. I don't think you are correct.

I don't agree with their views and believe Darshan is a GOI agent that is purposely causing trouble to turn public opinion against us and to split the community. Sadly, because the protestors got out smarted and outmanouvered and lost their cool - Darshan is winning at this game.

[Only five]

Some people are aware of it, but for majority they have no clue, even what the criminal Code is. In there it say anyone can carry a knife that has a blade 3 to 4 inches long and in some province it could be longer to different laws. So basically a pocket knife can be carried by any average joe.

How is that relevant? If it is relevant please paste the relevant section of the Criminal Code so we can look at it. Also, the Criminal Code of Canada is a federal statute and, as such, applies equally to all provinces.

It applies equally to all, then are all the rules the same, across the provinces? You can't see the connection between anybody is able to carry a knife with a 3 to 4 inch blade and Sikhs carrying Kirpans as freedom of religion? If Sikhs are not allowed to carry a kirpan then it becomes an infringment on their rights as Canadians.

It seems like you want to prove me wrong so pull up the criminal code and tell everyone which section speaks on knife carrying. And if there is not a section like this that exist, then just say it doesn't exist.

Here is the whole code

http://www.efc.ca/pages/law/cc/cc.html

Never mind here it is, I won't make you search for it. Remember the word prohibited is written before weapons.

Section 84, “prohibited weapon” means

(a) a knife that has a blade that opens automatically by gravity or centrifugal force or by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in or attached to the handle of the knife, or(b) any weapon, other than a firearm, that is prescribed to be a prohibited weapon;

Further to show Darshan laal and followers propaganda, we need to look back into the protest that took place in the UK. We have followers of Darshan Laal saying in the newspapers that no voilence broke out there. Now this is a complete lie. There was violence because Darshan Laal goons used wood sticks and metal rods to streak Singhs.

The reason why Darshan Laal is saying there was no violence in UK is because then he can say only the violence started here in Canada and previous protest were peaceful, therefore meaning I am innocent of knowing such things like this would happen(violence breaking out). The Gurdwara that invited him, Sikh lehar centre (members) and Darshan laal can be both charged with criminal offense. These goons knew violence would break out, like in Uk, and they still held an event that would disturb the peace here in Canada.

Please post the relevant section of the Criminal Code under which Sikh Lehar Centre/Members or Darshan Laal can be charged and explain. I don't think you are correct.

here you go sir,

http://www.efc.ca/pa...w/cc/cc.30.html

If the link does not open up then please go to section 30 of the criminal code of Canada. Darshan laal has been recongized as an excommunicated person from the Khalsa Panth, ruling given by the authority of Sri Akal Takht Sahb ji. Every Sikh or person that calls himself a Sikh or is a member of a Gurdwara or any other Sikh organization must obey the order given by the authority of Sri Akal Takht Sahib ji (not to associate or let him(Darshan Laal0 speak at a Sikh function). This ruling applies to everyone. Since Darshan Laal knew his presence and giving a sermon will cause problems(we saw violence break out in UK and will violate his conditions) and he is going against the Supreme Authority(Sri Akal Takht Sahib ji) and he was well aware of what will take place (the peace will be disturbed) then in my opinion his actions were intentional and deliberate. Which means a judge can give a ruling where Darshan Laal is not allowed to speak at any Sikh function, until the Supreme Authority of Sikhism gives him the right too. Otherwise Darshan laal will try to speak again at a Gurdwara and cause problems in Canada again.

[SunSingh]

If Mangat has interest of sikh community at heart he should not invite an excommunicated person to his center.

He should not invite Ragi darshan lal who is on record for abusing bani of khalsa.

He should not promote kala afgahnaism which in essence is sugar coated poison and anti religion.

If he wants ragi to come and abuse sikh scriptures then he should form a separate sect like nirankaris.

(...deleted as it was really long...)

Protests are held ebcause ragi abuses bani of dasam pita, ridicules sikh rehat maryada, disowns sikh ardas and condemns Nitnem banis.

That is the reason protests are held. Don't you know that yet? You are aware why protests are held.

Ragi is also making indirect statements casting doubts on banis of Sri guru Granth sahib ji.

Gur Fateh veerji,

My point was to ask how to solve this problem, not what the sangat's stand is (that's been done to death).

I know what the reasons are for the protest, my point is different. My point was how to do it differently. The way that it was done recently was not within the law, nor Sikhi principles (e.g. vichar, nimritha, etc.)

You obviously want him to stop and I understand that. But that is not the point, because there are many stands on the matter and that will never end since everyone has a say (e.g. Panth - millions of Sikhs - many have their own views).

We as Sikh's need to solve it, not break its head or stab it, right?.

It's the 21^st century veerji, violence or harsh words doesn't cut it anymore; since, people use to solve their problems by fighting, but our guru's taught is vichar they taught us a different way .

Gur Fateh ji!

vir ji, the unfortunate truth is that panthic sikhs have tried to do vichaar with raggi so many times. He has been invited to india for debate a number of times, even accepted it and then declined due to various excuses. The agenda of these people is to create division, not to do vichaar b/c vichaar is in the best interests of the panth.

unfortunately, attacking singhs and instigating them to attack back was part of their agenda.

Harjeet Sahota from facebook:

i was there..it was unfortunate but as an observer one has to remember that the side that got stabbed was not pacify the crowd as the artcle says...the guy was swearing and not letting people into a gurdwara as well his followers had metal rods which they brandished and charged at the people outside with..i am NOT in anyway affliated with any side...I am just telling what i saw...In fact I am friends with the son of the guy who got stabbed but his followers did brandish weapons first

We need to look to the past. The puratan Singhs had so much self control they could take a beating without flinching in the morcha to regain control of the Gurdwara sahibs. I'm not saying fighting to defend Guru's bani is wrong, and I'm not saying we should do it exactly like puratan Singhs did, nor am I saying to take beatings, but we must alter the strategy in the best interests of the panth in each venue where protests happen. Canada is not India. Peaceful protests work here, violence is not ok here.

The main goal is to win hearts and minds of mainstream sangat who is unaware of the propaganda. Violence can trigger a backlash from them. The attacks on Dasam Bani, Akaal Takht, Rahit, Amrit Sanchar, and now Guru Granth SAhib are merely methods of division being used. our goal is not to convince panth-dokhis, nor is it necessarily to shut them up (unless it's by debate, which is why they are scared of it), the ultimate goal is to convince the mainstream sangat so that the panth maintains its unity and walks in line with Gurmat. And it's to maintain Gurmat rahit ourselves.All other goals should be subservient to these 2 ultimate goals.

[Sher Khalsa]

Some people are aware of it, but for majority they have no clue, even what the criminal Code is. In there it say anyone can carry a knife that has a blade 3 to 4 inches long and in some province it could be longer to different laws. So basically a pocket knife can be carried by any average joe.

How is that relevant? If it is relevant please paste the relevant section of the Criminal Code so we can look at it. Also, the Criminal Code of Canada is a federal statute and, as such, applies equally to all provinces.

It applies equally to all, then are all the rules the same, across the provinces? You can't see the connection between anybody is able to carry a knife with a 3 to 4 inch blade and Sikhs carrying Kirpans as freedom of religion? If Sikhs are not allowed to carry a kirpan then it becomes an infringment on their rights as Canadians.

It seems like you want to prove me wrong so pull up the criminal code and tell everyone which section speaks on knife carrying. And if there is not a section like this that exist, then just say it doesn't exist.

Here is the whole code

http://www.efc.ca/pages/law/cc/cc.html

Further to show Darshan laal and followers propaganda, we need to look back into the protest that took place in the UK. We have followers of Darshan Laal saying in the newspapers that no voilence broke out there. Now this is a complete lie. There was violence because Darshan Laal goons used wood sticks and metal rods to streak Singhs.

The reason why Darshan Laal is saying there was no violence in UK is because then he can say only the violence started here in Canada and previous protest were peaceful, therefore meaning I am innocent of knowing such things like this would happen(violence breaking out). The Gurdwara that invited him, Sikh lehar centre (members) and Darshan laal can be both charged with criminal offense. These goons knew violence would break out, like in Uk, and they still held an event that would disturb the peace here in Canada.

Please post the relevant section of the Criminal Code under which Sikh Lehar Centre/Members or Darshan Laal can be charged and explain. I don't think you are correct.

here you go sir,

http://www.efc.ca/pages/law/cc/cc.30.html

If the link does not open up then please go to section 30 of the criminal code of Canada. Darshan laal has been recongized as an excommunicated person from the Khalsa Panth, ruling given by the authority of Sri Akal Takht Sahb ji. Every Sikh or person that calls himself a Sikh or is a member of a Gurdwara or any other Sikh organization must obey the order given by the authority of Sri Akal Takht Sahib ji (not to associate or let him(Darshan Laal0 speak at a Sikh function). This ruling applies to everyone. Since Darshan Laal knew his presence and giving a sermon will cause problems(we saw violence break out in UK and will violate his conditions) and he is going against the Supreme Authority(Sri Akal Takht Sahib ji) and he was well aware of what will take place (the peace will be disturbed) then in my opinion his actions were intentional and deliberate. Which means a judge can give a ruling where Darshan Laal is not allowed to speak at any Sikh function, until the Supreme Authority of Sikhism gives him the right too. Otherwise Darshan laal will try to speak again at a Gurdwara and cause problems in Canada again.

It is not my intent to prove you wrong, but to have a well thought out discussion without jumping to conclusions.

In regards to Canadians having the right to carry a knife that is 3-4 inches in length, I haven't looked at the Criminal Code to find that Section but assuming that it does exist, I would comment as follows:

1) The Courts have recognized that the Kirpan is an "ARTICLE OF FAITH", if it was to be defined as a knife, we would be in trouble. I strongly recommend that no one refer to it as a knife or a weapon - it is an ARTICLE OF OUR FAITH that we are required to have on our person at all times. Also, most people should have a kirpan between 6 and 12 inches in length, that would not fit in the 3-4 inch exemption for knives that you referred to. That being said, a kirpan is not a knife and should not be defined as one.

2) There is case law around the kirpan and we need to be careful on how we represent our faith and articles of faith to the general public. Relying on a provision in the criminal code around knives will do no good but will have a lot of negative repercussions.

In regards to Section 30 of the Criminal Code, I can assure you that it does not apply to this situation and Darshan nor anyone affiliated with Sikh Lehar Centre will be charged for what happened at the protest.

This is what it comes down to in my mind.

1) Sikh Lehar Centre was established to cause trouble and preach Kala Afghana/Darshan propoganda

2) Darshan is not to speak at any Gurdwara as per Akal Takht

3) Sikh Lehar Centre has allowed Darshan to speak despite Akal Takht ruling

4) Singhs have been upset with Sikh Lehar Centre since it opened and with its members and supporters

5) Singhs heard Darshan was to speak on Friday at Sikh Lehar, they gathered at Glidden Gurdwara to organize a protest to stop Darsahn from speaking

6) An hour before going to Sikh Lehar from Glidden Gurdwara Singhs received notice that Darshan was not going to speak and that the program was cancelled

7) Protestors decided that since they will still go to Sikh Lehar Centre, out of the large group of protestors a small groups sole purpose was to fight and they were heard saying things like "get ready to give your head"

8) Protestors arrived and tried to enter the Sikh Lehar Centre and were denied entry and were told that the program by Darshan was cancelled (people may say denying access to a gurdwara is means for violence BUT Malton Gurdwara, Dixie Gurdwara, Rexdale Gurdwara have all denied access to different people at different times and are all a 10 minute drive from Sikh Lehar Centre - so it does not make sense for anyone to take a stand only here and not at the others - that is hypocrisy)

9) Mangat was pulled grabbed by 1 angry protestor and then another prominent protestor yelled "Fardo" and Mangat was then rushed by a group of people, at that time his face was stomped, his hair was pulled, he was punched in the face and stabbed 3 times.

10) After the protest certain members of the protest went online and boasted about their accomplishments

11) The issue blew up in the media

At the end of the day, based on the above facts which have been verified by protestors who were there to support those who were against Darshan and to speak in support of Dasam Bani , and were disgusted by what they saw, what happened was not justified. The whole purpose of the protest was to stop Darshan from speaking - he was not even at the program - MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. Whatever happened after that was out of hate and ego - not based on Sikh principles. In 84' mobs of hindus attacked Sikhs in Delhi - in mobs - it is easy to attack people in a mob - that is not bravery - any coward can do that. It's sad that the protestors acted as a mob and even worse used a Kirpan on a unarmed man who was not even fighting. A kirpan should never be used - as you can see from what has resulted from this incident.

If the protestors had kept their calm, thought about the big picture, and stopped once they achieved their goal - they would have full support of Toronto Sangat. From those who know the facts, it as almost unanimous that Darshan Ragi is an evil person and Sikh Lehar Centre is up to no good, but that the attack should never have happened and was not justified based on the facts and based on Sikh principles. Its not a question of whether you are against or support Darshan its a question about what happened at the protest and whether is what justified or not.