Battles

[Curioussingh]

If the Sikh Gurus were messengers of God, then why were they always being killed by Moghul forces? Shouldn't God have protected his messengers? I ask because I heard some muslims talking about how muhammad (sp?) was a victorious figure who overcame the odds to win in battle and religion. When I looked up one battle it seems as though muhammad did find himself getting a lot of "breaks" such as an enemy general secretly converting to islam and causing an overwhelming force of muhammad's enemies to flee when muhammad's defeat (and death) seemed certain. These breaks could easily be interpreted as divine intervention by muslims. When the Gurus needed God most God did not intervene. So why did the Sikh Gurus get killed off but Muhammad survived/thrived? If God was really on their side then wouldn't God have intervened like God did for muhammad? This is larger than the question of why bad things happen to good people (which this question could be interpreted as asking), since the Sikh Gurus were not just ordinary people. They were supposed to be carrying God's message.

[MansWisdom]

The gurus were not messengers of god. There is no difference between the gurus (unlimited kala) and waheguru. Hence you can therefore say they were basically waheguru. Read mool mantar it describes the gurus. I can even go a step further and say there is no difference between waheguru, the gurus and pooran brahm gianis. The answer to all your questions depends on understanding and obeying akal purakhs hukum.

Also there is no point comparing the prophets/avatars of other religions as to see any distination or have any partiality is work of agyani pursh(ignorant ones) not aim or work of gyanvan bhramgyanis.

So your question ji is flawed to begin with.

[hkaurP]

If the Sikh Gurus were messengers of God, then why were they always being killed by Moghul forces? Shouldn't God have protected his messengers? I ask because I heard some muslims talking about how muhammad (sp?) was a victorious figure who overcame the odds to win in battle and religion. When I looked up one battle it seems as though muhammad did find himself getting a lot of "breaks" such as an enemy general secretly converting to islam and causing an overwhelming force of muhammad's enemies to flee when muhammad's defeat (and death) seemed certain. These breaks could easily be interpreted as divine intervention by muslims. When the Gurus needed God most God did not intervene. So why did the Sikh Gurus get killed off but Muhammad survived/thrived? If God was really on their side then wouldn't God have intervened like God did for muhammad? This is larger than the question of why bad things happen to good people (which this question could be interpreted as asking), since the Sikh Gurus were not just ordinary people. They were supposed to be carrying God's message.

When did the Guru's lose? And when did God not help them? We won all battles. When were we being killed by Moghul forces? And moreover, Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Zafarnama changed Aurangzeb. Muhammad died didn't he? Not all things are permanent on earth.

[Curioussingh]

When did the Guru's lose? And when did God not help them? We won all battles. When were we being killed by Moghul forces? And moreover, Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Zafarnama changed Aurangzeb. Muhammad died didn't he? Not all things are permanent on earth.

Gurus lost when:

Guru Har Gobind was executed by Mughals

Guru Tegh Bahadur was executed by Mughals

Guru Gobind Singh was stabbed by a muslim assassin which eventually led to his death

I consider these losses not victories in the battle against muslim tyranny. Yes, nothing is permanent but the manner in which people die also matters. My question is if God favored them then why did they die such violent deaths?Why did they suffer so much when men like muhammad didn't?

[Curioussingh]

The gurus were not messengers of god. There is no difference between the gurus (unlimited kala) and waheguru. Hence you can therefore say they were basically waheguru. Read mool mantar it describes the gurus. I can even go a step further and say there is no difference between waheguru, the gurus and pooran brahm gianis. The answer to all your questions depends on understanding and obeying akal purakhs hukum.

Also there is no point comparing the prophets/avatars of other religions as to see any distination or have any partiality is work of agyani pursh(ignorant ones) not aim or work of gyanvan bhramgyanis.

So your question ji is flawed to begin with.

If you are saying the Gurus were basically waheguru, then how is that not saying they were God incarnate? How is that different from the Christian belief that God is Jesus (who took human form)?

Why is there no point in comparing the prophets/avatars of other religions?

I know my questions may annoy some people, but I ask in order to get answers to better understand the religion.

[hkaurP]

Gurus lost when:

Guru Har Gobind was executed by Mughals

Guru Tegh Bahadur was executed by Mughals

Guru Gobind Singh was stabbed by a muslim assassin which eventually led to his death

I consider these losses not victories in the battle against muslim tyranny. Yes, nothing is permanent but the manner in which people die also matters. My question is if God favored them then why did they die such violent deaths?Why did they suffer so much when men like muhammad didn't?

From what I know, after the battle of Kartarpur, Guru HarGobind Sahib Ji moved to Kiratpur where again he was attacked. However he succeded to cross the Sutlej river and make it to Kiratpur where he spent 10 years of his life and acceded to Sachkhand in 1644. So then how was Guru Ji executed by Mughals?

Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji gave his head for humanity. Hence the name Hind Di Chadar. He willingly went to the Mughal leaders, he knew what atrocities him and Bhai Sati Das, Bhai Mati Das, and Bhai Dayal Das were to face. Guru Ji set another example for Sikhs to not back away and willingly give Shaheedi which was followed by Sikhs as Bhai Taru Singh and Banda Singh Bahadur.

By the way, Jesus also died a violent death being crucified and still Christians believe that he was sent by God. So then why didn't God save him?

[Curioussingh]

From what I know, after the battle of Kartarpur, Guru HarGobind Sahib Ji moved to Kiratpur where again he was attacked. However he succeded to cross the Sutlej river and make it to Kiratpur where he spent 10 years of his life and acceded to Sachkhand in 1644. So then how was Guru Ji executed by Mughals?

Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji gave his head for humanity. Hence the name Hind Di Chadar. He willingly went to the Mughal leaders, he knew what atrocities him and Bhai Sati Das, Bhai Mati Das, and Bhai Dayal Das were to face. Guru Ji set another example for Sikhs to not back away and willingly give Shaheedi which was followed by Sikhs as Bhai Taru Singh and Banda Singh Bahadur.

By the way, Jesus also died a violent death being crucified and still Christians believe that he was sent by God. So then why didn't God save him?

You are right I was wrong about Guru Hargobind. However, I still consider having Guru Tegh Bahadur give his head a loss. After all, the only winners from this were the Muslim rulers because they got rid of someone they considered a nuisance. It didn't put a dent in muslim tyranny at the time, and it didn't do a single thing to stop muslim tyranny in later years. A real victory would have been the end of mughal rule (similar to how muhammad ended pagan rule in saudi arabia).

The assassination of Guru Gobind was not addressed.

I'm not an expert on Christianity, but according to Christians, Jesus had to die violently in order to pay for the sins of humanity. Thus, it is only because of Jesus that salvation can be obtained (according to them) because he paid for man's original sin. Also, they feel Jesus came back to life 3 days after he died on the crucifix.

[hkaurP]

You are right I was wrong about Guru Hargobind. However, I still consider having Guru Tegh Bahadur give his head a loss. After all, the only winners from this were the Muslim rulers because they got rid of someone they considered a nuisance. It didn't put a dent in muslim tyranny at the time, and it didn't do a single thing to stop muslim tyranny in later years. A real victory would have been the end of mughal rule (similar to how muhammad ended pagan rule in saudi arabia).

The assassination of Guru Gobind was not addressed.

I'm not an expert on Christianity, but according to Christians, Jesus had to die violently in order to pay for the sins of humanity. Thus, it is only because of Jesus that salvation can be obtained (according to them) because he paid for man's original sin. Also, they feel Jesus came back to life 3 days after he died on the crucifix.

I'll be honest, the reason why I didnt address Guru Gobind Singh Ji's death was because I had nothing to say about it since I never doubted my Guru or his actions. But I went and did some research and this is what I found. I thought I'd share it with you since you were questioning it.

"While all were mourning the loss of the Guru, a Sikh arrived and said, " You suppose that the Guru is dead. I met him this very morning riding his bay horse. After bowing to him when I asked whither he was going, he smiled and replied that he was going to the forest on a hunting excursion."The Sikhs who heard this statement arrived at the conclusion that it was all the Guru's play, that he dwelt in uninterrupted bliss, that he showed himself wherever he was remembered. He who treasures even a grain of the Lord's love in his heart, is the blessed one and the Guru reveals himself to such a devotee in mysterious ways. Wherefore for such a Guru who had departed bodily to Heaven, there ought to be no mourning."

http://sikhee.com/guru-gobind-singh.html

Each religion has its own rules and history. Our history is gruesome but it reminds us to remember Waheguru at all times. A Sikh is a Brave Saint Soldier. Our Guru's proved it with the way they accended to sachkhand. Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji's shaheedi exemplified how we should love all of humanity not just Sikhs. He gave his head for a religion who's beliefs he opposed. And Mughul Raaj was demolished when Khalsa Raaj flourished. I haven't studied Islam, so I cannot comment on Muhammad. But Khalsa is distinct. So its history won't have similarities with other religions.

[hawk13]

If the Sikh Gurus were messengers of God, then why were they always being killed by Moghul forces? Shouldn't God have protected his messengers? I ask because I heard some muslims talking about how muhammad (sp?) was a victorious figure who overcame the odds to win in battle and religion. When I looked up one battle it seems as though muhammad did find himself getting a lot of "breaks" such as an enemy general secretly converting to islam and causing an overwhelming force of muhammad's enemies to flee when muhammad's defeat (and death) seemed certain. These breaks could easily be interpreted as divine intervention by muslims. When the Gurus needed God most God did not intervene. So why did the Sikh Gurus get killed off but Muhammad survived/thrived? If God was really on their side then wouldn't God have intervened like God did for muhammad? This is larger than the question of why bad things happen to good people (which this question could be interpreted as asking), since the Sikh Gurus were not just ordinary people. They were supposed to be carrying God's message.

Ur post is full of incorrect facts first even during Guru Nanak times notable muslims such as Rai Bular

,Mardana, Dluat khan became sikhs . Guru Arjun dev ji times many muslims strated becoming sikhs, during Guru Hargobind shiab times for the 1st time in1634 mughal forces forces severe defeat it was first defeat of any muslim empire from inside the empire. Besides sduring 10th master times some prominent muslims like Pir buddhu shah were devotees of gurus ansd guru resolve to remain under the will of god makes them much superior than any prophets of not only other religions but other reformers

[sikhanswers]

Stupid thread if the person posting is a Sikh he would know the message was universal by the Sikh Gurus. Muhammad preached nothing new but Arab culture, Arabic mixed with ideas borrowed from Christians and Jews. Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji was not executed by the Mughals.

Was the beheading of 900 Jews in Medina also a miracle for Muslims?

Muhammad died in 632 A.D. He died as a result of being poisoned following his attack upon and conquest of the Jewish settlement of Khaibar. About 2 month before his attack on Khaibar Muhammad failed in an attempt to go to Mecca. This failure resulted in the Treaty of Hudaybiyya with the Meccans. He returned humiliated in the eyes of the Meccans and in the minds of his people. To lift their defeated spirit, Muhammad told his followers that the events at Hudaybiyya were really a victory. In fact, another convenient "revelation" was given to Muhammad as proof that it really was a victory (Sura 48:1). However, Allah was not able to deliver the Meccan's goods as booty, so Muhammad told his followers that they were going to attack and plunder the weaker Jewish settlement of Khaibar.

About 6 weeks later Muhammad led his army and attacked the Jews while they were on their way to work on their date palms. Khaibar was a settlement defended by a number of forts spread apart from each other. One by one Muhammad's army took the forts. Finally, the last few surrendered to him. Muhammad had several of the leaders of the Jewish settlement beheaded, one leader (Kinana) was tortured to reveal where buried treasure was hidden. Then when Kinana was near death, Muhammad commanded that he be beheaded. Many of the women and children were enslaved. Muhammad even took the most beautiful woman for himself and married her (Safiyah).

Some of Khaibar's residents made a deal with Muhammad. Instead of enslaving them, which would leave the rich orchards of Khaibar to go untended and unproductive, the Jews would give Muhammad and the Muslims 1/2 of all of what they produced. Muhammad accepted the deal, with the stipulation that they could be expelled at his slightest whim. Years later, Umar expelled the last remaining Jews from Khaibar.

Immediately following the conquest of Khaibar, a Jewish woman prepared a dinner for Muhammad and some of his men. Unknown to the Muslims was that she had put a poison into the lamb (some say goat) that was served at dinner. Muhammad ate some of the poisoned lamb and died as a result three years later.