Ravidassiya'S Hating On Sikhs

[GPS]

To clarify what I said before. No I have no documentable evidence for this but the people mentioning these things to me don't seem to have any reason to lie about it. That being said, I acknowledge your point that we cannot discount that it may be a misunderstanding or a lie.

I don't know why you are waiting for a reference when I told you the evidence for this was anecdotal at this stage. You are right in that I need to get more direct evidence of this and will seek to do so for the future and present it to the wider sangat. If I find no evidence then I will state as much.

Thanks for statement on Amrit sanchar.

On the other issue we need to know that all dalits are not Sikhs.Majority of these chamars hailing

from Hoshiarpur and jalandhar area are Hindus.This is reflected in cenusu figures of India.Because of their

declaring Hinduism as their religion Sikhs are in a minority in these two districts.

It is unethical for these to dump garbage of their Hindu legacy of caste ism on sikhs.Sikhism does not permit

caste ism and it is written in sikh scriptures. They should fight Hindus for the wrongs done to them and we sympathise with them.

Sikhs have demonstrated their adeherence to casteless society by making a mazhbi sikh as akal takhat jathedar in the past.

We should accept that though sikhism does not promote caste consideration yet it is present in our society.This is

our cultural legacy and should not be termed as religious issue. Had it been a religious issue one would not find it

in pakistan Punjab. Casteism is a stark reality in Punjabi Muslim society of Western Punjab as well.

Though it is a cultural issue yet we should condemn it.Only way to get rid of this evil is to embrace khalsa rehat.

[dalsingh101]

It is unethical for these to dump garbage of their Hindu legacy of caste ism on sikhs.Sikhism does not permit

caste ism and it is written in sikh scriptures. They should fight Hindus for the wrongs done to them and we sympathise with them.

Sikhs have demonstrated their adeherence to casteless society by making a mazhbi sikh as akal takhat jathedar in the past.

That is like saying no racism exists against blacks in America because Obama has been elected. Sikhs do practice caste and caste discrimination, it is unethical to try and downplay this and just serves as another way in which the problem is perpetuated.

We should accept that though sikhism does not promote caste consideration yet it is present in our society.This is

our cultural legacy and should not be termed as religious issue.

If caste is solely a cultural issue and not a religious one then why would our Gurus speak of it numerous times in the Guru Granth Sahib? I think it is a religious/spiritual issue because Guru Maharaj speaks of it or else why would it be mentioned?

Had it been a religious issue one would not find it

in pakistan Punjab. Casteism is a stark reality in Punjabi Muslim society of Western Punjab as well.

Casteism is a horrible thing that wraps itself around everything in India (and former India). It's like an infection that is hard to shake off. The difference between us and Pakistanis is that their faith (Islam) never emerged directly in the environment of the Indian caste system as it originally arose in Arabia - it took some time to reach what we now call India and even then this virus wrapped itself around the religion.

Our own dharam did emerge in what we call India today, hence there is direct reference to caste within our scripture. There are in fact multiple references to it. So again, I say, it is a religious issue, one the Gurus themselves were fully aware of.

Though it is a cultural issue yet we should condemn it.Only way to get rid of this evil is to embrace khalsa rehat.

See above about it being solely a cultural issue.

There is a problem with what you say, plenty of people adhere to the physical requirements of Khalsa rehit and still persist in a caste based ideology or worldview. Seeing as caste is so enduring in India (and outside in diasporic communities), combating its negative influence requires serious and sustained effort, in multiple ways. If the thing wasn't so slippery, it would have been destroyed amongst the Sikhs at least, but we know it isn't.

It isn't going to go away through weak willed attacks. We have to recognise that we have people within us who secretly or even openly, very pro caste. We need to have an open and honest debate with such elements.

[Only five]

Let's be frank. Ravidasias or so-called 'low castes' in general have been treated quite badly by some 'Sikhs' over time.

This has gone beyond a generally haughty attitude towards them has involved violence, rape and murder. There is also a concerted effort to keep them 'in their place' whenever they try to rise up in India also, this isn't confined to the Panjab but many other states too.

These people that you speak of are not Sikhs. They can claim to be Sikhs, but then again a Muslim behind a computer, with a screenname as Singh can claim the same. Stop disgracing Sikhs here. Ravidasia are a whole different sect that have now started their own religion with a human Guru, which they disguise as Sant. Chamar does not equal Ravidasia. These people have chosen and then been pushed aswell by jatts to start their own religion. If this Sant of theirs was true, he would not have done what he did and would not sit as a self proclaimed Guru. His but would have been in the Sangat.

This has even crept into out most intimate religious practices with the chautha paur which essentially excludes people from the amrit sanchaar ceremony due to their caste.

What in the hell are you talking about. GPS has asked you for proof of this, and you tried to run and hide,so he doesn't ask over and over and at the end you provide no evidence of it. Go back to SPN buddy everyone knows what your up to, here. Your surely not fooling anyone. I said the same to you on Sikh awareness and your getting the same treatment here for your own ways. I wouldn't have wrote this if you had the intregity to just apologize about bring up misinformation because you were misinformed. But you still continue with this cr*p. If anything it's you who as an agenda here. What you think because you label someone else as having an agenda you have got away with it. You lie and wait for an opportunity to present itself where you can spit your hatred toward Sikhs. Get off the computer and do something productive.

The video you provided does not say anything about chamar being excluded from Amrit Sanchar. Matter of fact, that video shows that chamar can take Amrit Sanchar as one Sikh claims in the video of taking it. If he was excluded and had to take it with only chamar, he would have mentioned it.

I've seen my own family at it, especially in the really derogatory way they use the words chumaar or chuhra as an insult. That just highlights how they have dehumanised such people.

Then provide us with your family members names and we will take it to Sri Akal Takht Sahib, where they will be dealt with for not letting Sikhs take Amrit. Take your lies somewhere else.

We need someone to unite us and make us strong. Not people who will fracture us further and have us infighting. Let's recognised the injustice done through greed and hankaar towards certain communities and then change things for the better? Seems like the most sensible option.

Who is fracturing here? It is you by making up lies here.

Admin Note: Inappropriate comments/personal attacks deleted. A benti in everyones feet - please stop spreading baseless rumours and stick to the original topic otherwise sewadars will be forced to raise warning status or suspend posting rights, please keep this mind next time you post. Dhanvaad!

[GPS]

If caste is solely a cultural issue and not a religious one then why would our Gurus speak of it numerous times in the Guru Granth Sahib? I think it is a religious/spiritual issue because Guru Maharaj speaks of it or else why would it be mentioned?

It is not a religious issue for sikhs.Unlike Hindu scriptures where caste consideration is endorsed, sikh scriptures forbid discrimination on the basis of caste or creed.Hence it is a cultural practice of that region.

These people that you speak of are not Sikhs. They can claim to be Sikhs, but then again a Muslim behind a computer, with a screenname as Singh can claim the same. Stop disgracing Sikhs here. Ravidasia are a whole different sect that have now started their own religion with a human Guru, which they disguise as Sant. Chamar does not equal Ravidasia. These people have chosen and then been pushed aswell by jatts to start their own religion. If this Sant of theirs was true, he would not have done what he did and would not sit as a self proclaimed Guru. His but would have been in the Sangat.

Well said. Sikhs have not taken contract to police the malpractices prevailing in other religions.It is sheer ignorance to import problems of other religions and blame it on sikhs. Hindu chamars are not sikhs.

Those who commit themselves to khalsa rehat have no caste.

[dalsingh101]

Those who commit themselves to khalsa rehat have no caste.

Isn't that a bit of a cop out in facing the truth that most people who consider themselves Sikhs (including some Amritdharis) practice a caste identity?

When you say:

It is not a religious issue for sikhs.Unlike Hindu scriptures where caste consideration is endorsed, sikh scriptures forbid discrimination on the basis of caste or creed.Hence it is a cultural practice of that region.

That just makes it worse as so many Sikhs practice caste when it is forbidden? Are you focusing on ideals and choosing to ignore ugly ground level realties/truths?

You act like Sikh society has no issues with caste that needs addressing? If not, why are you being so weak willed about confronting

it?

Watch, see how playing this down is going to come back to haunt us in a big way in future.

[GPS]

That just makes it worse as so many Sikhs practice caste when it is forbidden? Are you focusing on ideals and choosing to ignore ugly ground level realties/truths?

You act like Sikh society has no issues with caste that needs addressing? If not, why are you being so weak willed about confronting

it?

Watch, see how playing this down is going to come back to haunt us in a big way in future.

The point i am making is that Hindu scriptures e.g. Manu smrities promote caste system.

This establishes that their religious teachings divides society on caste lines.

Sikh scriptures denounce that.This means caste system is not ordained by sikh teachings.

However many sikhs in india practice the system. Hence it is a cultural legacy prevalent in that region.

Do not blame sikhism for that.Blame the society in general for following old practices. That society consists

of Hindus, Muslims and sikhs.

Once we become khalsa we take amrit from the same bowl.The initiates are from all castes of society.

That is a testimony of death of caste system.

[dalsingh101]

Once we become khalsa we take amrit from the same bowl.The initiates are from all castes of society.

That is a testimony of death of caste system.

So are you saying that no caste bias/consciousness takes place from amritdhari Sikhs?

You and I both know that isn't true. Caste system is alive and kicking and the way you ignore it is probably gives a very good explanation

of exactly why.

[GPS]

So are you saying that no caste bias/consciousness takes place from amritdhari Sikhs?

You and I both know that isn't true. Caste system is alive and kicking and the way you ignore it is probably gives a very good explanation

of exactly why.

It is a social evil like other evils of society such as dowry system. There are some who follow this system there are others

who do not. It is wrong to attach it with sikhsim.

[dalsingh101]

I get your point a bit better now.

I don't think anyone is attaching it to Sikhi but rather ignorant Sikhs.

Like I said before, watch how in our own lifetimes, the panth will come to regret turning a blind eye to casteism.

Playing it down is just condoning it. Carry on.

[GPS]

Sikhs went to UK in 1950s.They took caste system along them from social fabric of Punjab/India.

Thus they built many gurudwaras in UK on caste lines.

Sikhs went to USA in 1970s.There are no gurudwaras on caste lines in USA.There may be an exception

here or there.But trend is against caste consideration.

So we are improving as a society. It is a good sign.