Chairs

[West London Singh]

I know somebody that didnt used to sit in a chair either, as they were so bad that could not sit, so they used to lie down instead at th back of the gurdwara darbar. As long as they were listening to the bani, i feel personally this was ok.

I know some down and out tramps that stay outside in the doorway. If they can do it without complaining why can't our elderly stop being a bother to us and wait for us outside in the cold while we young fit ones matha tek ? I feel personally this is ok ?

In fact, seeing as we are so keen to 'keep things the way they used to be', why don't we do what they used to do in the past and put the elderly disabled in freak shows ? That way, not only would we not have to spend money on chairs but we could actually generate money from paying customers at the freak shows while we young fit ones matha tek in the gurdwara.

You know....they say 'he who doesn't know where he came from can't possibly know where he's going'. If you wanna close your eyes and ears to how our elderly, in a totally different work culture and climate to their forefathers in Punjab, worked physically hard to lay the foundation to your easy existence today. A physically hard labour coupled with a poor diet which has left them not nearly as capable of sitting on the floor as their counterparts in Punjab. If you wanna close your ears and eyes to that history then you deserve to go on blind not knowing where you're going.

[Bundha]

LOL, Those fools who sit on chairs infront of Akaal Purkh are the blind ones.

[gurdssingh]

I posed the the question earlier that why are the kirtani jatha allowed to sit on a stage, infront of Guru ji and but why are not old or physically unable people allowed too sit on bench. The response from a member was it was out of respect to the people imparting religious knowledge. Which is fair enough, but what about the same old age respect for our elders?

Whats wrong with an old or disabled man / women who is physically unable to sit on the floor sitting on a bench LOWER than guru ji, but at the same level or even lower than the stage off the kirtani jatha or person giving a vichar (sermon), whom are usually all fit able bodied people.

Sorry if it is wrong to ask but I can't comprehend why some are allowed to sit on a small stage even though they can physically sit on the floor and those who can't physically sit on the floor why are they not allowed, AS LONG AS IT IS RESPECTFUL TO SGGS, i.e. sitting lower level. Of course respect should be shown to the teacher/ scholar / kitani / giani etc. but respect should also be shown for our elders or disabled !

[Singhstah]

We are not here to help Guru Ji, Guru Ji is here to help us, any thing which stops us getting this help from Guru Sahib is wrong, therefore stopping people from entering Guru Ji's darbar just because the only way they could sit is on a chair would be very wrong.

I think a lot of issues would be resolved if we saw Guru Sahib as living SatGuru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj. If Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj is holding a darbar seated on a takht and a disabled individual longs to see Maharaj will he throw them out because they cannot sit on the floor? To insinuate this is more of an insult than anything else.

Lets not make things mystical, we sit on the floor to acknowledge Guru Sahib is higher than all of us, humility, so that there are no specially reserved places for anyone and to show no one in sangat is higher or lower than anyone else.

Lets really ask ourselves if someone sitting on a chair because they absolutely cannot sit on the floor is in violation of any of these things.

bhull chukk maaf

[gurdssingh]

We are not here to help Guru Ji, Guru Ji is here to help us, any thing which stops us getting this help from Guru Sahib is wrong, therefore stopping people from entering Guru Ji's darbar just because the only way they could sit is on a chair would be very wrong.

If Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj is holding a darbar seated on a takht and a disabled individual longs to see Maharaj will he throw them out because they cannot sit on the floor? To insinuate this is more of an insult than anything else.

Lets not make things mystical, we sit on the floor to acknowledge Guru Sahib is higher than all of us, humility, so that there are no specially reserved places for anyone and to show no one in sangat is higher or lower than anyone else.

Lets really ask ourselves if someone sitting on a chair because they absolutely cannot sit on the floor is in violation of any of these things.

bhull chukk maaf

I totally agree 100% with all of the above statement.

[Bundha]

If Guru Nanak Dev Ji was stood infront of us now who amongst us would recognise him? No one.

Okay Guys the truth is that whether we like it or not there are chairs at the back of most Gurdwaray now. The reality right now is that in some Gurdwaray those chairs have turned into soft sofas, that is happening right now. In other Gurdwaray the chairs have turned into cinema style comfy chairs, this is the reality right now. Mark my words in a few years time every Gurdwara will have a row of comfy sofas along the back wall. And these old foggies who our liberal hearts bleed for who have worked so hard in their lives with bad diets - and lets for the moment just overlook the fact that they drunk dried every pub they came across and wrung the neck of every chicken that walked this land -, will sit leg crossed upon leg infront of Guru Ji. They will then say that they keep having to get up and go to the loo every 10 minutes due to prostate trouble and having to keep putting their shoes on and then taking them off. We liberal bleeding hearts will say “go ahead keep your shoes on because Guru Nanak Dev Ji would not mind if he was here.” So you will all argue that these Duffers should keep their shoes on and sit at the back of the darbar on sofas, and all the time you know who will be watching? Your father Guru Gobind Singh Ji, and just remember his words – as long as the Khalsa remains distinct and on the true path then I will support him fully, once the Khalsa goes into bipran ki reet and veers off the path then I will withdraw my support and when Guru Ji withdraws his support we murakh better watch out! :o

[Kharrag Singh]

It looks like Bundha's fighting his corner by himself, so I'm offering a little bit of support...

As Bundha has said, I also believe chairs have no place in the Guru's Darbaar and in addition, in the Langar Hall either...

The ability to sit on the floor in divaan or during langar is one and the same. We tend to forget that Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Amar Das Ji formally brought in the practice of pangat and they themselves were well over 80 years old! Stools, cusions and other aids would have been available to them at that time also, however these were not used. Surely the sangat then would also have included people who faced difficulty in sitting?

We can take a lesson from the situation of our Langar Halls, where only recently the pangat tradition has come into the majority after hard work from Singhs. However it was only after we saw a dramatic rise in the use of tables and chairs for the 'elderly'. Due to our guard being down, it has now firmly been established that each Guru Ghar can have a good number of tables and chairs for the 'elderly' to sit on, where in fact anyone and everyone sits without being worried about being accused of breaking the pangat tradition our Guru's started.

In the same way, everytime we move away from our true way of living, i.e the way our Guru's taught us, we are in danger of making it the norm...this is how truth and history is lost.

Therefore, putting the respect issue aside, i would never support the introduction of chairs in divaan.

However, I can appreciate the views of those considering the disabled, i.e those that physically cannot sit (I'm not talking about those that cant just endure a little pain in order to sit in sangat as per tradition but about those that are maybe in wheel chairs for example).

I am of the view that I am nobody in stopping such a person doing darshan of the King of Kings. As mentioned above, I cannot imagine Dhan Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji would not allow a person in a wheel chair to enter their darbaar...However, I would commend the avastha and sharda of such a person that from their own choice do not go into divaan knowing they would be unable to uphold the principles of sangat...such avastha in my view would be pleasing to Maharaaj as they would see their Sikh being so humble and I'm sure if it was in their karam Maharaaj would answer their prayers in one way or another and give them their darshan themselves... however as noted above, I could not stop someone myself...

Therefore, as a solution, I would personally have 2/3 wheel chairs that stay in the Guru Ghar only and should someone want to do darshan, they could sit in them and go in... This would avoid the need for seats in the divaan, it would avoid abled body people taking the easy root as they do in Lanagar and sitting unnecessarily on seats and this would also avoid the fact that just like we take our shoes off before entering divaan, it will ensure no wheel chair enters the divaan which may have travelled through all the dirt on the streets.....

I think its importrant that we keep and stick to our Sikhi traditions with stead fast, however we should not be inconsiderate of those people in positions we could not even imagine... Should we however begin diluting our practices, they would sooner or later be lost, or they would merge into being the norm...we have som many example of this happening already...

As a note to the veer who keeps questioning the stage in darbaar.... Anyone reciting bani, or doing katha of Gurbani and imparting Gurmat sits on a higher platform. This is primarily out of respect of the Bani itself. Just as at home, if you are reciting Rehraas with your family, the person holding the Gutka or the person reciting Rehraas from heart may it be, should sit on a higher platform... at the very least they should be sitting oona clean sheet...out of respect for Gurbani... The sakhi of Sri Guru Har Gobind Ji comes to mind where they asked for a Gursikh to recite Jap Ji Sahib khant (off by heart). They sat that Gursikh on their throne and Maharaaj sat lower...out of respect for Gurbani... in the same way, the stage is for Keertani's, Katha Vaachiks, Dhadi Jatha who are reciting Gurbani and imparting Gurmat.

[gurdssingh]

If Guru Nanak Dev Ji was stood infront of us now who amongst us would recognise him? No one.

Okay Guys the truth is that whether we like it or not there are chairs at the back of most Gurdwaray now. The reality right now is that in some Gurdwaray those chairs have turned into soft sofas, that is happening right now. In other Gurdwaray the chairs have turned into cinema style comfy chairs, this is the reality right now. Mark my words in a few years time every Gurdwara will have a row of comfy sofas along the back wall. And these old foggies who our liberal hearts bleed for who have worked so hard in their lives with bad diets - and lets for the moment just overlook the fact that they drunk dried every pub they came across and wrung the neck of every chicken that walked this land -, will sit leg crossed upon leg infront of Guru Ji. They will then say that they keep having to get up and go to the loo every 10 minutes due to prostate trouble and having to keep putting their shoes on and then taking them off. We liberal bleeding hearts will say "go ahead keep your shoes on because Guru Nanak Dev Ji would not mind if he was here." So you will all argue that these Duffers should keep their shoes on and sit at the back of the darbar on sofas, and all the time you know who will be watching? Your father Guru Gobind Singh Ji, and just remember his words – as long as the Khalsa remains distinct and on the true path then I will support him fully, once the Khalsa goes into bipran ki reet and veers off the path then I will withdraw my support and when Guru Ji withdraws his support we murakh better watch out! :o

Who would recognise guru nanak dev ji? well everyone who believes in sikhi, the joth was passed down through all gurus so SGGS is the same!

No ones advocating sofas, cinemas seats, recliners, lazy boys etc.

Quote from Bundha "And these old foggies who our liberal hearts bleed for who have worked so hard in their lives with bad diets - and lets for the moment just overlook the fact that they drunk dried every pub they came across and wrung the neck of every chicken that walked this land -, will sit leg crossed upon leg infront of Guru Ji. They will then say that they keep having to get up and go to the loo every 10 minutes due to prostate trouble and having to keep putting their shoes on and then taking them off. We liberal bleeding hearts will say "go ahead keep your shoes on because Guru Nanak Dev Ji would not mind if he was here."

WHAT! why you making up things! How can you genrealise. You have a very over active imagination.

Please answer my question in the previous two posts i made. As to why kirtanis who are usually able bodied no disablity, suffer no pain sitting on the floor allowed to sit on a stage? Why can't elderly and disabled sit on a bench which is at a similar height? As both are lower than SGGS Ji?

One response was respect, WHY respect shown for one and not the other. As our culture dictates respect for elders first then providers of knowldege (teachers).

[Bundha]

Who would recognise guru nanak dev ji? well everyone who believes in sikhi, the joth was passed down through all gurus so SGGS is the same!

Remember when they shut the gates at Amritsar infront of Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib Ji ? There was Adh Guru Granth Sahib Ji then also but it was people like me and you who did not recognise the jyote of Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

There is no over active imagination. Years ago people said "oh just a few chairs at the back to the hall will be okay" - we now have soft sofas, we have cinema style comfy chairs, is this over imagination? this is happening today my friend. Just extrapolate forward and more concessions will naturally be given.

As to why kirtanis who are usually able bodied no disablity, suffer no pain sitting on the floor allowed to sit on a stage?

LOL, do you know what kirtanies do on stage? Do you know how much riaz and effort they have put into their kirtan to get to that stage ? That is their respect, they are singing GURBANI so they can sit on a stage and sing the praises of Akaal Purkh. These foggies drunk every pub dry in their time and now they want respect and sit on chiars infront of Guru Ji what right have they earned to do this? They can get respect at home from their family and friends.

I would direct my question to these oldies - Why in Gods name would you even think of sitting on a chair infront of Guru Ji? You have no respect for your Guru? You want to increase your karam?

[gurdssingh]

The over active imgination was with regards to way in which have allueded to the fact that all people incapable off sitting on the floor are chicken eating drinking all pubs dry.

The masands you refer too with the not allowing Guru Tegh Bhadhur ji , well maybe im worse for thinking that old and diabled should be shown the same respect as the ragi's reciting gurbani. I dont know how much they practice rehearse etc. but if they can physically sit on the floor they should as in guru presence all are equal.

I mean akbar had langar with the sangat. why cant ragis sit at the same level then. NO they deserve respect they must be on the fast track towards meeting waheguru, as they are allowed to sit at a slightly higher level. Interesting that in india it s not the case in majority of gurdware.