Census 2011 Ravidassia Urged To Be Seperate Kaum

[dalsingh101]

If is a Sikh is genuine about seeking salvation and walking the path of the Guru's then he/she has to reject castism even if it goes against his/her family. That is a small price to pay for what our forefathers went through in history. Castism is what alienates and divides humanity rather than seeing them part of the same one universal soul. Both ravidassia chamar and jatts are guilty of not letting go of their castes. The chamars idol worship (the arti they perform) statue's and pictures of Bhagat ravi das ji and other Hindu rituals against Sikhi the Jatts hold onto the drinking culture and caste system of the Hindu's. Both and others have to reject the practises that bring their Sikhi into disrupt if they want to claim they are Sikhs otherwise good luck to them if they want to follow Jattism or Ravdissism but i suspect their will be alot of conflict in punjab. india and aboard between the two..... only Sikhism can save them from conflicts.

I agree with you here.

What we need is a 'reset'. A fresh start without all the historical, cultural baggage. An inward rejuvenation of spirit and world view, brother and sisterhood. As you say, we essentially need to bring Sikhi back to the core of our lives and thinking.

Right now, people have turned it into some political platform for their material objectives and hence, 'Sikhs' get perceived by those on the receiving end of schemes designed to preserve privilege and an unbalanced status quo, as oppressive. It's not even complicated.

What we need to be thinking is that we want to build up a fair, egalitarian and progressive society. One that is a model for the rest of the world. Not preserve some medieval, backwards rural hierarchy.

We need to increase numbers (for obvious reasons in a democratic environment) and we need a fairer society like our Gurus planned. People who are obstacles to this are the true 'enemies within' of the panth and are ignorantly weakening it with their egocentric casteism.

[gurdssingh]

As for India, had Sikhs not treated them with contempt, maybe the government wouldn't need to enforce this skewed policy of positive discrimination in favour of them? Although I also appreciate these policies are designed to oppress and demoralise Sikhs, but if any of us were to speak up we'd be tarred with being anti-Ravidassia. Its a delicate situation.

Paaji,

The policy is enforced throughout India, its not there to oppress or demoralise Sikhs. Scheduled castes are given quotas in whole of India not just Punjab. I feel the intention was good but the practically it has failed as in colleges/ uni they need less % to pass. It was designed to help people out off poverty through education but it is so flawed system. For example if a scheduled caste Doctor who is well off financially, there child studies medicine, they will still qualify as schedueled caste, who can pass exams at much lower pass rate is that not unfair compaired to a farmer whose contemplating suicide due to debt, his child will have to pass at the normal rate, why no exceptions for him. It should be based on finances if it's purpose was to help people out off poverty or should be scrapped. Would you prefer someone of higher calibre or sub-standard just because of there caste.

Sorry for going off topic.

[dalsingh101]

Paaji,

The policy is enforced throughout India, its not there to oppress or demoralise Sikhs. Scheduled castes are given quotas in whole of India not just Punjab. I feel the intention was good but the practically it has failed as in colleges/ uni they need less % to pass. It was designed to help people out off poverty through education but it is so flawed system. For example if a scheduled caste Doctor who is well off financially, there child studies medicine, they will still qualify as schedueled caste, who can pass exams at much lower pass rate is that not unfair compaired to a farmer whose contemplating suicide due to debt, his child will have to pass at the normal rate, why no exceptions for him. It should be based on finances if it's purpose was to help people out off poverty or should be scrapped. Would you prefer someone of higher calibre or sub-standard just because of there caste.

Sorry for going off topic.

If there wasn't rampant casteism going on, you'd have a stronger point. It's the fact that there is, that necessitates the positive discrimination.

When the British were around, they implemented positive discrimination laws in favour of Jatts with laws like the Land Alienation Act, which prevented nonJats from owning land and worked to keep Jatts loyal as imperial guard dogs, so jats had a long time with preferential treatment. Now some other party (arguably) gets similar treatment, Jatts are complaining?

Seeing as prejudice and discrimination is so deeply rooted in the Panjabi psyche, what options do you have other than positive discrimination? I mean so-called higher castes frequently wont even share wells or cremation grounds with so called "lower" jaats, so you can imagine what they would be like with the touchy issue of employment......

Given the sad fact that few care a toss about egalitarianism from their hearts within the panth now, no option exists other than forcing people to level the field.

In all of this, I'm hearing the same old crusty old vested interests arguments from the same old quarters.

It's such a shame because normally the youth in a society yearn for change and fairness, but too many of our lot go the other way because of buckwaas their families have filled their heads with.

[gurdssingh]

If there wasn't rampant casteism going on, you'd have a stronger point. It's the fact that there is, that necessitates the positive discrimination.

When the British were around, they implemented positive discrimination laws in favour of Jatts with laws like the Land Alienation Act, which prevented nonJats from owning land and worked to keep Jatts loyal as imperial guard dogs, so jats had a long time with preferential treatment. Now some other party (arguably) gets similar treatment, Jatts are complaining?

Seeing as prejudice and discrimination is so deeply rooted in the Panjabi psyche, what options do you have other than positive discrimination? I mean so-called higher castes frequently wont even share wells or cremation grounds with so called "lower" jaats, so you can imagine what they would be like with the touchy issue of employment......

Given the sad fact that few care a toss about egalitarianism from their hearts within the panth now, no option exists other than forcing people to level the field.

In all of this, I'm hearing the same old crusty old vested interests arguments from the same old quarters.

It's such a shame because normally the youth in a society yearn for change and fairness, but too many of our lot go the other way because of buckwaas their families have filled their heads with.

Paaji re-read what I said, i'm not against positive discrimination, BUT i was talking about getting people out off poverty based on financial criteria. Casteism works both ways, some guys need to block out the inferiority complex and stopping hating on Jatts as we dont have a chip on our shoulder.

BTW land alienation act was not in favour of just Jatts, BUT all castes of agricultural backgrounds.

[dalsingh101]

some guys need to block out the inferiority complex and stopping hating on Jatts as we dont have a chip on our shoulder.

Same old arguments. Jats need to get over their persecution complex.

Why is nothing ever said about actions being taken by progressive Jats to combat hate filled attitudes towards people many jats deem beneath them? Not withstanding that our whole faith is based on principles counter to that?

Maybe because very little is done about this?

Until we actually act and live our inherited progressive values, can we expect anything different to what is going on paa ji?

Underlying all this is the complete failure of Sikh society to give those deemed underdogs in our society an equal chance. Instead we resent their upward mobility because we see it as detrimental to our own.

Are we that unimaginative that we can't build a progressive, inclusive economy? Or are we just entrenched in backwards thinking that doesn't even allow us to see a bigger picture to an ancient feudal hierarchy?

Where are all the idealised Sikh youth in all this? Have they just been brainwashed by their parents to carry on with ancient struggles?

[dalsingh101]

I'm telling you all, if we ever coordinated and overcame these petty politics, we could all have more than enough.

Whilst we continue to fight like a troop of monkeys over a few bananas, all we are going to do is open ourselves up to exploitation from outside - YOU CHOOSE.

Surely anyone with even half a brain can see the first thing we need to stop doing, is exactly what we have been doing for ages now.

Think outside the caste box.

[VanHelsingh]

Off-topic (a bit) I shudder to think about the situation back home if these policies continue to be enforced for the foreseeable future, whereby the people that makeup the traditional Sikh community are overlooked for employment opportunities. In another 50 or 75 years, Sikhs will be in a terrible mess because they won't have studied (because they know they'll be overlooked for employment), they'll be addicted to narcotics, and they'll be languishing in poverty. That's what this skewed policy ultimately hopes to achieve.

But then the government also knows some Sikhs won't tolerate this, thus those Sikhs will try to emigrate for a better life. Therefore, Panjab is gradually taken away from the very people who should be at it's heart. Its a devious plan and one that seems to be working.

Either way (whether Sikhs stay in or leave Panjab) they lose.

[KSSS2011]

The mentality of posts here ios quite astonishing, claiming that chamars idol worship, Jatts drinks what a generalisation? What about the Jat Bhagat Dhanna?

[clarity]

That is why Sikhs need to empower themselves and not rely on the existing governments to help them. They need to get themselves and all colleagues into positions of power using money from connections abroad to buy jobs if need be as that is the law of the land.

Once in power they should use all of their strength in their positions to empower other local youth and people who will not abuse their positions but will help each other.

Exactly as the Jews have done they were not accepted in any cirlces and were looked upon with mistrust everywhere they went they toiled and got each other into massive positions and eventually ruled media etc to grow to become a formidable enemy to all of the muslims and the arab world if a small race like them that was threatened with extinction can survive and become one of the greates powers on earth surely all we need to do is take a leaf out of their book.

[VanHelsingh]

@ clarity - I agree but the fundamental difference between the Jews and Sikhs is that Jews appreciate the need to work for the greater good. I'm probably generalising but on the whole they're a united race. We - as Sikhs - are fragmented into God knows how many sub-sub-groups. Plus the fact that - I'm probably generalising here too - Asians don't like to see other Asian's succeed.

THERE - I SAID IT!!!

Its true, and my word am I walking example of this controversial opinion. :lol: From my experience (and all the events that have occured in my life up to this point) its the one abiding "lesson" I've learnt from this particular janam of mine. I'm not saying this problem is limited to our people and it never happens in other communities, but its a particular sore-point amongst Asians and Sikhs.

Have a look at the Southall Gurudwara Elections threads on sikhsangat to see how we can't even run OUR OWN Gurudwaras properly. Its a disgrace and absolutely humiliating. On the one area in which the kaum should pull together, i.e. the running of our holy places, there's so much vitriol, hate and politics.

Whilst I don't want to enter 'pie in the sky' territory, unless someone galvanises us (or scares the dodgy characters amongst our people away), we won't get anywhere. We're already on the road to self-destruction.