Q&A With Sant Jagjit Singh Ji Harkhowal Wale

[N30S1NGH]

N30SIngh Ji thank you for these. I just wanted to point out that the link you provided http://www.sikhaware...o-toronto-2010/ has some inactive links on it.

I can't seem to open the links on your first post on that thread

References- Questions and Answers thread from Last few years from year- 2007-2009

-

http://www.sikhaware...?showtopic=9824

- http://www.sikhaware...showtopic=10560

Singh154, most of the inactive links which has recording has been re-posted under gurmatveechar.com -

http://www.gurmatvee...ons_and_Answers

Here are the threads from last few years:

http://www.sikhawareness.com/index.php/topic/10560-questions-for-baba-jagjit-singh-ji-harkhowal/

http://www.sikhawareness.com/index.php/topic/9824-101-discussions-with-sant-jagjit-singh-ji-harkhowale/

[N30S1NGH]

I will ask him the above stanza from sri dasam granth sahib ji whenever i see him next...However, right off the bat it appears this stanza is recited to do upma of nirgun vahiguroo ji...should be understood that way, seeing the whole parkriti(creation/destruction) from surti submerged with nirgun vahiguroo (nirvakalp sun smadhi)... just do an experiment yourself, close your eyes try seeing this earth from space with countless planets (see-nasa picture) and it will appear how insignificant everything, everyone(sargun) living in this earth really is (from avtars shud trai gun body to 5 tatvas to parkritis)...above stanza shouldn't be taken literally, if you do then you going to run into issues(have dubta) understanding gurbani where sargun saroops are praised.

[Only five]

I will ask him the above stanza from sri dasam granth sahib ji whenever i see him next...However, right off the bat it appears this stanza is recited to do upma of nirgun vahiguroo ji...should be understood that way, seeing the whole parkriti(creation/destruction) from surti submerged with nirgun vahiguroo (nirvakalp sun smadhi)... just do an experiment yourself, close your eyes try seeing this earth from space with countless planets (see-nasa picture) and it will appear how insignificant everything, everyone(sargun) living in this earth really is (from avtars shud trai gun body to 5 tatvas to parkritis)...above stanza shouldn't be taken literally, if you do then you going to run into issues(have dubta) understanding gurbani where sargun saroops are praised.

Thanks for doing that for me.

Gurbani says Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj is Sargun Saroop of Sri Waheguru Ji Maharaj, but no where in Gurbani or Sri Dasam Granth Sahib ji Maharaj or anywhere else of Guru's writing does it say Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj is lost in maya and was subject to Kal, or like a worm or Sri Waheguru Ji Maharaj created him and then destroyed and then created him again only to destroy him. The Gurus are never disrespected at all, whether in Nirgun or Sargun Saroop of Sri Waheguru Ji Maharaj, so why is Krishna shown in this light, when Sant Jagjit Singh ji is saying he is in the avatar of Sri Waheguru Ji Maharaj.

[N30S1NGH]

It's very complicated, i will try my best...again don't take any of my explanation as gospel truth, this based on my understanding.

In this case, above stanza set the record straight to hard-core followers of krishan maharaj who idolize him as nirgun vahiguroo, consider everyone else as false. Above stanza no where should be taken as an judgement on krishan maharaj avastha. Gurbani is setting the record straight that these avtars are made by nirgun vahiguroo, he is ultimate super consciousness par bhram, all these avtars come from him(lack of better word) but are not "him" as in its totality. Similiarly, maharaj himself said in bachitar natak- those who call me god(nirgun as defined in mool mantar/jaap sahib) will go to hell (as cautionary reminder, don't fall into same pit as many followers of krishan, ram did by idiolizing baut(idol) of krishan or ram so much that you get blinded to the point where you don't see vahiguroo -sarab vypak vahiguroo(sargun/nirgun) everywhere/every being/parkriti.

Please read fruitful vichaar regarding this few years ago:

http://www.sikhawareness.com/index.php/topic/11526-where-do-idolaters-go-when-they-die/

[Only five]

It's very complicated, i will try my best...again don't take any of my explanation as gospel truth, this based on my understanding.

In this case, above stanza set the record straight to hard-core followers of krishan maharaj who idolize him as nirgun vahiguroo, consider everyone else as false. Above stanza no where should be taken as an judgement on krishan maharaj avastha. Gurbani is setting the record straight that these avtars are made by nirgun vahiguroo, he is ultimate super consciousness par bhram, all these avtars come from him(lack of better word) but not "him". Similiarly, maharaj himself said in bachitar natak- those who call me god(nirgun as defined in mool mantar/jaap sahib) will go to hell (as cautionary reminder, don't fall into same pit as many followers of krishan, ram did by idiolizing baut(idol) of krishan or ram so much that you get blinded to the point where you don't see vahiguroo -sarab vypak vahiguroo(sargun/nirgun) everywhere/every being/parkriti.

Please read fruitful vichaar regarding this few years ago:

http://www.sikhawareness.com/index.php/topic/11526-where-do-idolaters-go-when-they-die/

But then Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj right in next lines says don't see any difference between me(Guru Sahib) and Sri Waheguru Ji Maharaj. Also Gurbani praises Satguru as Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj, wouldn't that be classified as leaving the worship of Sri Waheguru Ji Maharaj. Or is Krishna different than the Gurus

At the moment I'm looking up katha of Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh ji Maharaj to get a better grasp of all of this. I will look at the link you provided afterwards I should be doing university projects...lol due dates are coming up

[singh154]

I think and also I could be wrong but satguru ji is talking about him and vahiguru having no difference in terms of nirgun form. Technically nirgun samadhi can not be defined in words as it is sachkand, it is not perceivable or conceivable. Many try to describe it but fall short as there is no form, shabad and it has no duality.

From listening to sant Jagjit singh's katha he also clarifies what you asked that one will not go to hell if they call him vahiguru by not seeing his sargun body but seeing his nirgun saroop. (but the problem is to see maharaj's nirgun saroop you must be without ego yourself).

Sant jagjit singh also further elaborates in the katha that krishan bhgawan, narsingh, Guru Nanak Dev ji etc are all the same in terms of them being the same nirgun form. But in terms of sargun saroop they are different. One who's dristi is only tuned in sargun will only see name, form, he, I etc.

I also believe that sikhi follows an advait approach in saying that everything is vahiguru and 'you' or 'he' or 'she' was a illusion created by 'I'. In reality there was never a you but only pure nirvakalap samadi. Our aim by doing gurshabad abiyaas is to realise this.

[Only five]

I think and also I could be wrong but satguru ji is talking about him and vahiguru having no difference in terms of nirgun form. Technically nirgun samadhi can not be defined in words as it is sachkand, it is not perceivable or conceivable. Many try to describe it but fall short as there is no form, shabad and it has no duality.

From listening to sant Jagjit singh's katha he also clarifies what you asked that one will not go to hell if they call him vahiguru by not seeing his sargun body but seeing his nirgun saroop. (but the problem is to see maharaj's nirgun saroop you must be without ego yourself).

Gurbani says that Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj and rest of the Gurus were Sri Waheguru Ji Maharaj in Sargun Saroop along with Nirgun Saroop. Also if Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj was warning us of not worshipping him (like the followers of Krishna) then Bhai Gurdas ji's vaar would be in question and Satguru Sri Guru Arjan Dev ji Maharaj would not have accepted them and called them the key to Gurbani. For example wouldn't Bhai Gurdas ji go to hell for saying the following:

gur Arjn ivthu kurbwxI ]23]

gur arajan vittahu kurabaanee ||23||

I am sacrifice unto Guru Arjan Dev.(23)

So in this sense, I think Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj is saying something else when he says don't call me god, if you do you will go to hell. I think it has to do more with people trying to separate Satguru from God and then worshipping him as the Lord of all.

Also this vaar of Bhai Gurdas ji would not be accepted if the Sargun Saroop of Satguru was not the Lord himself and can't be worshipped.

hirgoibMd gur Arjnhu guru goibMd nwau sdvwieAw]

harigobi(n)dh gur arajanahu gur gobi(n)dh naao sadhavaaeiaa||

Being created by Guru Arjan Dev, Guru Hargobind made himself famous as the form of the Lord.

When in Gurbani or Gurmukhs writes of the Gurus, they never refer to the Gurus as just another form of Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj. It's always THE form of Maharaj and not A form of Maharaj.

Sant jagjit singh also further elaborates in the katha that krishan bhgawan, narsingh, Guru Nanak Dev ji etc are all the same in terms of them being the same nirgun form. But in terms of sargun saroop they are different. One who's dristi is only tuned in sargun will only see name, form, he, I etc.

I think you would say otherwise, after reading the above Bhai Gurdas ji's Vaars. Satguru only has one nirgun saroop, which is the same nirgun saroop as Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj. Isn't the nirgun Saroop of Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj the one form that Sri Mool Mantar Sahib da paat tells us about and there is no separate nirgun saroop?

I also believe that sikhi follows an advait approach in saying that everything is vahiguru and 'you' or 'he' or 'she' was a illusion created by 'I'. In reality there was never a you but only pure nirvakalap samadi. Our aim by doing gurshabad abiyaas is to realise this.

Yes, everything is Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj, but then SIkhi goes further and says the creation holds this status temporarly and not permanently. The creation is a form of Maharaj, but not thee form of Maharaj that is permanent like him and like the Gurus.

[Only five]

This is the pankti to which i was pointing to when i said Gurbani says Satguru is Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj in Sargun Saroop and Nirgun Saroop.

This Shabad is by Bhatt Sathaa & Balvand in Raag Raamkalee on Pannaa 968

cwry jwgy chu jugI pMcwiexu Awpy hoAw ] chaarae jaagae chahu jugee pa(n)chaaein aapae hoaa || The four Gurus enlightened the four ages; the Lord Himself assumed the fifth form.

The full shabad can give a better understanding how Gurbani proclaims Guru Sahib is both saroops

[Only five]

I think i just came across something interesting, while searching through some threads here on Krishna. One Singh, Kam, has provided the shabad where Gurbani says different avatars have came here and under the command of Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj, removed evil in the first three ages, but then Satguru came down in the last age. But in the above post of mine, Gurbani says the Gurus (Satguru) enlightened the four ages, meaning they enlightened all of them. Just by looking at this, Krishna played an important role in uplifting evil from this world by Sri Waheguru Ji Maharaj command, but was unable to to escape Kal, as Sri Dasam Granth Sahib ji Maharaj tell us. Just like Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj came down to save Prahlaad, Krishna to the best of my knowledge was sent in the same way, but Kal took over. Here is the shabad, that Kam Singh provided in a different thread. Look at this below shabad and the above shabad which is in my post.

ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥

sathajug thai maaniou shhaliou bal baavan bhaaeiou ||

In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf.

ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥

thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou ||

In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.

ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥

dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou ||

In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed the demon Kans by pulling him from his hair.

ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥

ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou ||

You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥

kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou ||

In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.

sRI gurU rwju Aibclu Atlu Awid puriK PurmwieE ]7] sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7|| The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God. ||7||

[PAL 07]

Krishna is one of 24 avtars of vishnu, Akaal purkh can create many avtars as he wants as if they were worms. However Vishnu was created by God out of God's power and so some say Vishnu (and his avtars) are equal to God. This is my opinion of what Sant Harkovalvale are saying.

Its a difficult topic - the sakhi of Sri Guru Gobind Singh once turning there form into that of Sri Ram comes to mind.