Sikhi: Violence And Warfare

[pedrorizzo]

singh you do know innocent people were killed in the past during the wars with mughals and afghans...many sikhs were killed in cold blood because of the rebellious nature of the khalsa...sadly if we like it or not innocent peeople will always die in wars...no offence singh but i wouldnt think twice about putting every sikh in danger, including my family and yours if it meant fighting for justice and righteousness...if they die now or in 30/40 years i dont care...as long as we make a stand against tyranny and unjustice then thats all that matters..if you dont believe in that..then whats the point of being sikh? guruji says in bachittar natak that he has come to save the saints(rightesousness) and fight and hunt down the evil tyrants(unrighteousness)...what do you expect his sons to do?..sit around like cowards and worry about the materials possesions we have?...

Singh, do you realise what you have just said? This is exactly my point, you are willing to sacrifice me and other innocent people so that you can fulfil yourself by going on a crusade. That is extreme selfishness. Its no wonder that you get a cold reception from community elders, gurdwareh and 'moderate' Sikhs.

The fact that you dont mind sacrificing yourself doesnt really concern me. However, the fact that you dont care what happens to anyone else and are willing to achieve your objectives at any cost is very worrying. This is exactly the reason why people that think the way that you do will always be a small, marginalised force in our community.

[singher23]

Fighting oppression is the least selfish thing one can do

[pedrorizzo]

Fighting oppression is the least selfish thing one can do

I suppose if your gonna get into a scrap you need lines like this to motivate yourself and convince yourself that you are in the right.

Yes... fighting oppression MAY not be selfish, but lets face it you wouldnt do it unless you wanted to or you were getting something out of it. In the same way that people who do lots of sewa do it because they want to and are getting something out of it. Khalistani gun-man said in a post on another thread that by attaining shaheedi he thinks that he is gaining himself a place in Sach khand so he has a clear motivation wouldnt u say?

So I put it to you that most of these kids that get into this game basically want a bit of drama to spice up their lives and get into a scrap whilst using Sikhi as an excuse. Iv seen it plenty of times. If there were no wars, no conflict and drama, they wouldnt know what to do with themselves.

You can give yourself whatever justification you want and label it however you want, however if other people are suffering because of your actions, then that is selfish.

[singher23]

My motives and ideals are clear to me. Say what you said to me to Guruji

[VanHelsingh]

Your putting words in my mouth. Also your unable to see the middle path Satguru told us. Instead you keep talking about two extreme paths, making it an either-or situation.

Can you describe to us how Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj came to the conclusion of burning the Masands alive? Present this Sikh history to any outsider and they will call Satguru many slanderous names, maybe not to your face, but surely behind your back. And then add I'm a Sikh who fully endorses my Guru's actions. The person will walk 10 miles to avoid you the next time. Think about all the emotions a worldly person will go through before committing such actions. From a worldly point of view it is an under statement to call it barbaric. And the weak "Sikh" would even argue against it by saying didn't Satguru see God in them? Such actions can't be understood from a worldly point of view. Satguru always kept the lines of communication open. Even till the last second before the war, but never compromised Gurmat. Listen to Sant Baba Jarnail Singh ji Khalsa, he always kept the lines of communication open, but never left Gurmat. If the other side wants to discuss then let's discuss and come to a conclusion without war. But one thing the otherside should know is that Sikhs never move away from Gurmat. The Sikhs never said one thing and then acted against it. The diplomatic "Sikh" has no problem doing this and when they sit and discuss with politicians, they get sucked in and forget all about Satguru's teachings. We have an example of such display from Satguru's own son and we all know the punishment for doing such actions. Today Sikhs don't even think about Baba Ram Rai and how he was diplomatic and got kicked out of the Panth. Instead they favor such behavour and then cry when Satguru doesn't give them what they wanted. What do you think will happen when we act like Baba Ram Rai? Did we really expect a Golden Throne where the whole world bows at the Khalsa's feet....lol Khalsa is above such lowly actions. Satguru redefined how to be diplomatic and it has nothing to do with how it's defined today.

Is the above way of doing things in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib, i.e. I understand Guru Gobind Singh Ji wrote about being a ruler of a kingdom, politics, ways of conducting warfare, etc. Would the Gurmat way be what Dasam Paatshah is referring to?

[singher23]

Is the above way of doing things in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib, i.e. I understand Guru Gobind Singh Ji wrote about being a ruler of a kingdom, politics, ways of conducting warfare, etc. Would the Gurmat way be what Dasam Paatshah is referring to?

I believe that Sri Dasam Granth is highly metaphorical and should not be taken literally. Sri Dasam Granth tells stories, and you have to look deep into the stories to find the true meaning behind them. Sri Dasam Granth is only truly understood by very few people

[VanHelsingh]

I believe that Sri Dasam Granth is highly metaphorical and should not be taken literally. Sri Dasam Granth tells stories, and you have to look deep into the stories to find the true meaning behind them. Sri Dasam Granth is only truly understood by very few people.

There's no harm in striving to be one of those who can understand what is written. If we don't attempt to realise the majesty of what bani is truly saying, then how can we vouch for it's glory from the heart?

[singher23]

There's no harm in striving to be one of those who can understand what is written. If we don't attempt to realise the majesty of what bani is truly saying, then how can we vouch for it's glory from the heart?

I'm sorry, I didn't mean it the way you took it. Of course we should all strive to understand it, an I don't mean to be discouraging. (who am I to discourage anyone anyway?). I'm sorry if my post came off the wrong way.

[Only five]

You can give yourself whatever justification you want and label it however you want, however if other people are suffering because of your actions, then that is selfish.

When Satguru fought wars many innocent people lost their lives. So because of Satguru by your logic, which you showed, Satguru is selfish and was just looking for Sachkhand. Singho, this is why i say these topics are useless. People like this will never get what Sikhi is. It's best not to engage with such people and focus on your own jeevans and those Singhs that have the desire to meet Maharaj, give them to support to further their jeevan. Pedrorizzo type, tell them to do paat and they will go run to a politician and ask how to decieve more people to think their way. Pedrorizzo is an excellent politician and will twist the truth to please his superiors. Pedrorizzo, is going to see us against them. For him his own uncle is an enemy. For Khalsa the enemy on battlefield is a brother. Pedrorizzo will never understand this concept because he doesn't follow Sikhi. He follows his mind wishes.

Lastly and most important thing of all, Pedrorizzo will never answer the main questions of the discussion because he doesn't want to discuss. He wants to put is opinion across and in the process call you guys extremist and put Gurmat as selfish behaviour. He has no other goal. Pedrorizzo just called Maharaj selfish. What in the world do you think he will do for you? Put you on his shoulders and parade you around like your his hero?

Some people don't have anything else better to do in life and Maharaj has put them in this work. Tell him to first do Sri Sukhmani Sahib da paat with love and devotion, then come here and discuss. The answer from his mouth, well you won't here it, but it will be.....do paat!!! i already know what it says in that paat, i don't need to read it again.....such is the state of people that call Maharaj names. If you argue with such people then the filth that is stuck to them will eventual stick to you and lower your jeevan. Tell a person once, twice to discuss honestly and if they don't, end it there and don't respond.

Ask yourself this, why hasn't Gursikhs having a discussion with Darshan Ragi on Sri Dasam Granth Sahib ji Maharaj. They could in a second show the whole sangat he is wrong. But they don't discuss because all Darshan Ragi is going to do is insult Bani, insult Gurmat, insult Guru Sahib and the Gursikhs will have to suffer the consequences. Darshan Ragi brags to everyone he wants to discuss because he has no problem slandering Maharaj, infact thats his goal. There is no open mind to understand. Pedrorizzo has similar intentions here.

I'm only saying this for your benefit.

[Only five]

Is the above way of doing things in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib, i.e. I understand Guru Gobind Singh Ji wrote about being a ruler of a kingdom, politics, ways of conducting warfare, etc. Would the Gurmat way be what Dasam Paatshah is referring to?

First answer the question i asked you and then we can move to Sri Dasam Granth Sahib ji Maharaj and what Bani and line your speaking about or what you want quoted from Sri Dasam Granth Sahib ji Maharaj. We should first understand the message of Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj is giving to us before moving to Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj, which is very complex and can't be understood without a Gursikh teacher.

A lot of humility and love for Maharaj is needed, before moving to Sri Dasam Granth Sahib ji Maharaj, especially some Banis. We might read two words that fit our thinking and think, we can do.......

I read an article on Zafarnama by Dr. I.J. Singh and he missed the whole point and intrepreted Satguru's intentions into his way of thinking. Then you had the like minded people praise I.J. Singh as if their God came down and just blessed them with unity.......lol

Here is the question again: Can you describe to us how Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj came to the conclusion of burning the Masands alive? This question is presented so it wakes all of us up, who have written post in this thread. Challenge for all of us to move from our way of thinking and humbly bow.