Twisted Islamo-Facist Pakistani Drama About Sikhs 1947

[gurdssingh]

Can't 100% gaurantee this but I have read articles. Basically after partition many Sikhs found themselves to be the only Sikh family around for kilometers. So after peace pervailed the local muslims tried to convert the 'kafirs'. Many were forced to convert or lose the whole families lives.

This is what I heard first hand from a family member who went on yatra to Pakistan. A sikh family in Nanakana Sahib broke all ties with his sisters family as they had converted to Islam decades ago.

[West London Singh]

We should never forget history,.

My grandad's are dead but I'm lucky to have spoken with them extensively about their background and their lives. It's something to pass onto my kids. Alot of people from the 1947 era are getting old now, so like another member started a thread about we should engage with them and hear their stories and preserve our history.

Gurdssingh, I agree with you wholeheartedly.....And that is exactly the point i was trying to make to Genie. No person in their right mind is gonna deny that some muslims in western punjab started the trouble but that does not give us an excuse to brush aside what we did after.

I agree with you so much. The happenings of the partition need to be documented and archived. It is scandulous that in this day in age we simply have to rely on the oral history passed to a few hundred sikhs sitting in Toronto, Ludhiana or London. Lets be honest here.....our sikh account of partition to this day comes from the only sikhs in 1947 who were literate and could write and even to this day have writing in their blood....the urban bhappas. My grandfather and your grandfather could't write then and even now, 2 generations of London education later, we still ain't got that upper class educated class academic blood in us enough to be able to put in writing what our grandfather told us in words. But.....it needs to be put in writing bruvs. It needs to be. As educated people can we really say that it is right that the only account of what happened during partition comes from the 8% that were urban bhappas and the account of 92% rural sikhs is either lost or not documented at all ? (coz remember here bruvs....when you you look at the documeted census and surveys of Punjab in the 1940's you can see that while both the muslims and hindus had a pretty even 50/50 split between urban and rural the Sikhs were 92% rural !!!!! Only 8% of sikhs were urban and yet their experience of partition is recorded in history as the experience of all sikhs)

When I conversed with genie about the frenzied killing of muslims by our sikhs great-grandparents I wasn't boasting. I'm sure other sikhs in my position will verfy this but when my oldies sat me down and told me of what they did to the majority muslim population of district Jalandhar in 1947 they told me with not only a tear in their eye but also with their head hanging low in shame. My grandad told me his dad asked, many years later, in the 1950's, to have a 'sangli' 'round his neck like a dog. He said he deserved to be chained like a dog. He reminded people of how he, showing off his manly strength, used to grab muslim babies from their mothers and tear them into 3 pieces by pulling the arms off.

Like I said to genie. There were sikhs in punjab....hindus in punjab and muslims in punjab. When historical records show that more muslims were killed than the sikhs and hindus added togther...........Then it is surely time to acknowledge our own dark and awful thruth rather than critcising the others for stating something that is backed up by historical facts ?

[West London Singh]

but we should all be able to agree on this:

out of Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs... The Sikhs lost the most from the partition of India.

No we will not agree with that, paneer monster......because to agree with it is to devalue human life. We lost the most land and we lost the opportunity of freedom. But if we should consider that more important than the obscene amount of human life we took, I refer you to bulleh shah (which translates into english rather well) :

'Taade mandir'

taade masjit

taade joh kus kendaa

bar kisse da dil na tahyin

tahy rabh dilh'an vich renda

(break down the temple

break down the mosque

break down whatever building he SAYS

but never break another human being

coz THAT is where god LIVES )

[genie]

West London Singh, where do you get your figures from that muslims in punjab lost the most number of lives compared to hindus and sikhs and others?

Can you provide me source of your information?

I've just seen a table of population migrations and transfers from 1947 and it seems the non-muslim population was wiped out west partitioned punjab in pakistan wheras in indian punjab there was still some communities of muslims left alone. Of the private religious armies there were 50,000 members of RSS hindu militants, 40,000 muslim militant national guard and 8,000 Akali Fauj Sena Sikh Militants. So you can imagine yourself who did the majority of the killings and how many numbers they had to do it.

That's why I say it was a miracle that Sikhs survived the genocide against all the odds stacked against them, time after time Sikhs prove to be resilient in surviving as Palestinians term it... the "nakba"

[chatanga]

My friend, more muslims were killed by sikhs than the total number of dead sikhs and hindus added together. They were the massive majority in the city of Amritsar...

Can you tell us where you are getting your figures from ? Dr Kirpal Singh has put the muslim population in Amritsar city as 47%. Other writers have put it at 49% but I have yet to find any writings which put muslims as the majority in Amritsar, city or district.

Bruvs, there's about 100,000 books, articles and films out there in the public domain, written by Sikhs and Hindus that came from Lahore etc that depict the muslim as the killer and the Sikh as the innocent sufferer.

They tell their side of the story once and we jump down their throat. Where's the 'balance' here ?

No there is not, there are not a great deal of books by hindus and sikhs, and the only reason you dont know about parttion books by muslims is cos they dont really write for an indian or sikh audience. I have just read a book by Istiaq Ahmed on partition, and there are many books he has quoted from written by muslims. The pakistani govt wrote a few papers on partition, the most infamous one "the Sikh plan", amongst others. They havent told their story only once, so there is plenty of balance, even if we tell ours one more time.

Have you any idea of what our great-grandfathers did to muslim men, women and children in the district Jalandhar during partition ?

Have you any idea of the Sikhs that were killed in Rawalpindi in March 1947? Jalandhar was just the chickens coming home to roost.

maybe I m baised but I 've read many accounts that it was the muslims who stroke first and as the Sikhs had already organised themselves into jathas they were prepaired for retribution. I mean who wouldn't? It's all very easy living the lifes we do today saying 'no we should hold the moral ground etc etc'.

Sri Nanakana Sahib should have had a Sikh majority as was the case but it doesn't.

Sri Nankana Sahib was 70% Muslim in 1947, the Sikhs were about 20%. There was a great massacre of Sikhs, here, as the Baloch Military took an active part in shooting Sikhs, women and children included.

No we will not agree with that, paneer monster......because to agree with it is to devalue human life. We lost the most land and we lost the opportunity of freedom. But if we should consider that more important than the obscene amount of human life we took...

What we took was equal, if there were more muslims that died than sikhs, it would not have been many. Why dont you provide us with some figures on deaths?

Paneer Monster, i do agree with you, as we did lose the most and the community which is suffering from partition most even today is ours.

[West London Singh]

Can you tell us where you are getting your figures from ? Dr Kirpal Singh has put the muslim population in Amritsar city as 47%. Other writers have put it at 49% but I have yet to find any writings which put muslims as the majority in Amritsar, city or district.

What we took was equal, if there were more muslims that died than sikhs, it would not have been many. Why dont you provide us with some figures on deaths?

Oh my dear little brothers. This is getting embarrassing. I'm embarassed because yesterday I spent time and effort having a discussion on partition with what I thought were intelligent adults. Today, I find out you people have the knowledge base of an 8 year old.

Don't you even feel a little bit embarassed to ask me questions, the answers to which should be common knowledge for people your age ? People master their own history first and then go on to master the history of other cultures and regions. But you people don't even know the basics of your own. Thats really quite sad.

I mean come now.....you know how to put the computer on, you know how to search for sikhsangat and log on to it, and you even know how to post messages on it. How hard can it then be for you to do a basic search and find out how the breakdown of the dead during partition in Punjab was at least 50% Muslim, 25% Sikh and 25% Hindu. You're supposed to be at least approaching adulthood by now. Do basic internet searches before asking immature questions. If I said 3 + 4 = 7 would you ask me to provide proof ? For me, the fact that Punjabis have reached the age of adulthood and as yet still don't know the breakdown of the dead by ethnicity in what was arguably the most important event in their history as Punjabis is truly a sad indictment of our low intellectual level as a people.

And then theres the city of Amritsar. Sikh people on a Sikh forum and yet they don't even know the basic history of their holy city. How pathetic is that ? Again, how can you reach the age of adulthood and as yet still not know how muslims outnumbered sikhs at least 3 to 1 in Amritsar city ? Again, how long can it take for you to do a basic internet search ? How hard can that possibly be ?

I'll tell you what though....Lets just suppose for one moment that the world's internet broke down and there was nowhere to search. Surely then we would expect a Sikh to have enough knowledge about his holiest of holy's and be able to figure it out ? Think about it. Its purely a process of common sense. You know historically of the 2 twin cities of Lahore and Amritsar, Amritsar was the bigger. Then, the residential areas of Lahore started to grow and the twin cities became sattelite cities of each other whereby Lahore became the city where the business people lived and relaxed in whereas Amritsar became the Industrial and Commercial hub....i.e the place where the Lahori people ran their businesses. And you know that the Punjabis that were the manual artisans were the muslims....i.e...the sikhs and hindus owned the businsses and the muslims were the workforce. So....you know that Amritsar was a city made up overwhelmingly of a manual workforce. By process of elimination then you can see that it was overwhelmingly muslim in character. You see.....even if internet searches break down the answer is at your fingertips. The only prerequisite is that you must be prepared to use your brain.

Don't ask me no more questions fella. I've stated all I needed to on this subject. I'm embarrassed that I was even having a conversation with so many that know so little. To be honest, I actually feel like I've been discussing politics with a group of students with learning disabilities. This is really embarrassing for me.

[KhalistaniGunMan]

Oh my dear little brothers. This is getting embarrassing. I'm embarassed because yesterday I spent time and effort having a discussion on partition with what I thought were intelligent adults. Today, I find out you people have the knowledge base of an 8 year old.

Don't you even feel a little bit embarassed to ask me questions, the answers to which should be common knowledge for people your age ? People master their own history first and then go on to master the history of other cultures and regions. But you people don't even know the basics of your own. Thats really quite sad.

I mean come now.....you know how to put the computer on, you know how to search for sikhsangat and log on to it, and you even know how to post messages on it. How hard can it then be for you to do a basic search and find out how the breakdown of the dead during partition in Punjab was at least 50% Muslim, 25% Sikh and 25% Hindu. You're supposed to be at least approaching adulthood by now. Do basic internet searches before asking immature questions. If I said 3 + 4 = 7 would you ask me to provide proof ? For me, the fact that Punjabis have reached the age of adulthood and as yet still don't know the breakdown of the dead by ethnicity in what was arguably the most important event in their history as Punjabis is truly a sad indictment of our low intellectual level as a people.

And then theres the city of Amritsar. Sikh people on a Sikh forum and yet they don't even know the basic history of their holy city. How pathetic is that ? Again, how can you reach the age of adulthood and as yet still not know how muslims outnumbered sikhs at least 3 to 1 in Amritsar city ? Again, how long can it take for you to do a basic internet search ? How hard can that possibly be ?

I'll tell you what though....Lets just suppose for one moment that the world's internet broke down and there was nowhere to search. Surely then we would expect a Sikh to have enough knowledge about his holiest of holy's and be able to figure it out ? Think about it. Its purely a process of common sense. You know historically of the 2 twin cities of Lahore and Amritsar, Amritsar was the bigger. Then, the residential areas of Lahore started to grow and the twin cities became sattelite cities of each other whereby Lahore became the city where the business people lived and relaxed in whereas Amritsar became the Industrial and Commercial hub....i.e the place where the Lahori people ran their businesses. And you know that the Punjabis that were the manual artisans were the muslims....i.e...the sikhs and hindus owned the businsses and the muslims were the workforce. So....you know that Amritsar was a city made up overwhelmingly of a manual workforce. By process of elimination then you can see that it was overwhelmingly muslim in character. You see.....even if internet searches break down the answer is at your fingertips. The only prerequisite is that you must be prepared to use your brain.

Don't ask me no more questions fella. I've stated all I needed to on this subject. I'm embarrassed that I was even having a conversation with so many that know so little. To be honest, I actually feel like I've been discussing politics with a group of students with learning disabilities. This is really embarrassing for me.

if this is really embarrasing for you..then no offence but p*ss off...stop trying to patronize us...

[Guest KopSingh]

Oh my dear little brothers. This is getting embarrassing. I'm embarassed because yesterday I spent time and effort having a discussion on partition with what I thought were intelligent adults. Today, I find out you people have the knowledge base of an 8 year old.

Don't you even feel a little bit embarassed to ask me questions, the answers to which should be common knowledge for people your age ? People master their own history first and then go on to master the history of other cultures and regions. But you people don't even know the basics of your own. Thats really quite sad.

I mean come now.....you know how to put the computer on, you know how to search for sikhsangat and log on to it, and you even know how to post messages on it. How hard can it then be for you to do a basic search and find out how the breakdown of the dead during partition in Punjab was at least 50% Muslim, 25% Sikh and 25% Hindu. You're supposed to be at least approaching adulthood by now. Do basic internet searches before asking immature questions. If I said 3 + 4 = 7 would you ask me to provide proof ? For me, the fact that Punjabis have reached the age of adulthood and as yet still don't know the breakdown of the dead by ethnicity in what was arguably the most important event in their history as Punjabis is truly a sad indictment of our low intellectual level as a people.

And then theres the city of Amritsar. Sikh people on a Sikh forum and yet they don't even know the basic history of their holy city. How pathetic is that ? Again, how can you reach the age of adulthood and as yet still not know how muslims outnumbered sikhs at least 3 to 1 in Amritsar city ? Again, how long can it take for you to do a basic internet search ? How hard can that possibly be ?

I'll tell you what though....Lets just suppose for one moment that the world's internet broke down and there was nowhere to search. Surely then we would expect a Sikh to have enough knowledge about his holiest of holy's and be able to figure it out ? Think about it. Its purely a process of common sense. You know historically of the 2 twin cities of Lahore and Amritsar, Amritsar was the bigger. Then, the residential areas of Lahore started to grow and the twin cities became sattelite cities of each other whereby Lahore became the city where the business people lived and relaxed in whereas Amritsar became the Industrial and Commercial hub....i.e the place where the Lahori people ran their businesses. And you know that the Punjabis that were the manual artisans were the muslims....i.e...the sikhs and hindus owned the businsses and the muslims were the workforce. So....you know that Amritsar was a city made up overwhelmingly of a manual workforce. By process of elimination then you can see that it was overwhelmingly muslim in character. You see.....even if internet searches break down the answer is at your fingertips. The only prerequisite is that you must be prepared to use your brain.

Don't ask me no more questions fella. I've stated all I needed to on this subject. I'm embarrassed that I was even having a conversation with so many that know so little. To be honest, I actually feel like I've been discussing politics with a group of students with learning disabilities. This is really embarrassing for me.

i agree 200% with u paaji, a lot of sikhs r either living in denial/dont know, coz i thought it was a common knowledge amongst educated person on partition, that more muslims were killed during partition, jalandhar alone was soo disgusting from our grandparents, its embarrasing. u guys think that jus coz sikhs r supposed 2 b decent ppl, thats how they gona behave during rioting n looting times? nonesense, as horrible as it sounds, if someone was gona try n decimate my family n burn my house down, id make sure in those circumstances, we defend r selves n further more burn THEIR house down! PPL on here dont realise, that the panjabis of 1947 WERE IN A GRIP OF MADNESS, and ALL feel ashamed of wat they have done years later. many of our grandparents sat in depression that they miss their old friends across the border.

also i have heard from some ppl in the past that some sikhs, especially in the now ludhiana/moga/faridkot areas, were grabbing muslim jananis (women) and even defenceless men n forced em 2 convert. also like i mentioned in a previous post, satish gujral on the partition docu "the day india burned", says that in amritsar, the muslim girls school was raided n all were stripped and systematically raped.

[JSinghnz]

Gurdssingh, I agree with you wholeheartedly.....And that is exactly the point i was trying to make to Genie. No person in their right mind is gonna deny that some muslims in western punjab started the trouble but that does not give us an excuse to brush aside what we did after.

I agree with you so much. The happenings of the partition need to be documented and archived. It is scandulous that in this day in age we simply have to rely on the oral history passed to a few hundred sikhs sitting in Toronto, Ludhiana or London. Lets be honest here.....our sikh account of partition to this day comes from the only sikhs in 1947 who were literate and could write and even to this day have writing in their blood....the urban bhappas. My grandfather and your grandfather could't write then and even now, 2 generations of London education later, we still ain't got that upper class educated class academic blood in us enough to be able to put in writing what our grandfather told us in words. But.....it needs to be put in writing bruvs. It needs to be. As educated people can we really say that it is right that the only account of what happened during partition comes from the 8% that were urban bhappas and the account of 92% rural sikhs is either lost or not documented at all ? (coz remember here bruvs....when you you look at the documeted census and surveys of Punjab in the 1940's you can see that while both the muslims and hindus had a pretty even 50/50 split between urban and rural the Sikhs were 92% rural !!!!! Only 8% of sikhs were urban and yet their experience of partition is recorded in history as the experience of all sikhs)

When I conversed with genie about the frenzied killing of muslims by our sikhs great-grandparents I wasn't boasting. I'm sure other sikhs in my position will verfy this but when my oldies sat me down and told me of what they did to the majority muslim population of district Jalandhar in 1947 they told me with not only a tear in their eye but also with their head hanging low in shame. My grandad told me his dad asked, many years later, in the 1950's, to have a 'sangli' 'round his neck like a dog. He said he deserved to be chained like a dog. He reminded people of how he, showing off his manly strength, used to grab muslim babies from their mothers and tear them into 3 pieces by pulling the arms off.

Like I said to genie. There were sikhs in punjab....hindus in punjab and muslims in punjab. When historical records show that more muslims were killed than the sikhs and hindus added togther...........Then it is surely time to acknowledge our own dark and awful thruth rather than critcising the others for stating something that is backed up by historical facts ?

You are an embarrassment on our site by constantly showing your low intelligence by using caste based comments about Sikhs.

It is really difficult for you to comprehend simple matters that there are no castes in Sikhism but your little mind fails to understand this.

[chatanga]

This is really embarrassing for me.

so you couldnt say where u got the info from, but manged to write about how embarrassed you are?