Atheist

[Guest Kaal]

I'm gonna advise you to do two things;

1. Read the whole of Guru Granth Sahib Jee, Bhai Gurdas Jee's Vaaran and Dasam Granth to understand the meaning of

reality and Truth.

2. Jap more Naam and recite more Gurbani than you are currently doing. Remember that Naam gives you the

experiences not Gurbani, gurbani just helps the Naam. Naam makes you experience reality through various ways.

I'll explain a bit to you -

Firstly, how can someone prove the existence of something/someone spiritual through worldly materialistic ways.

Secondly, it is lowly and ignorant to assume intelligence is limited to this human body and world.

Thirdly, the strongest forces in Kalyug (dark age) are Illusion (Maya), doubt, duality, ego and hate. This world which everyone assumes to be real is an illusion.

nwnk kil kw eyhu prvwxu ]

naanak kal kaa eaehu paravaan ||

O Nanak, this is the sign of the Dark Age of Kali Yuga;

Awpy AwKxu Awpy jwxu ]1]

aapae aakhan aapae jaan ||1||

everyone says that he himself knows. ||1||

To Mat Pulo Rai -

Guru Sahib is the same as Vaheguru so he does not need to ask what action to take. The jyot that was within Guru Sahib's human body when he walked the earth is Vaheguru. Bhai Gurdas Jee explains this in his Vaaran where he states there is only a difference between the Gurmukhs and Guru Sahib; Guru Sahib is 101 perfect as he is the same as Vaheguru so sits on the same throne while the Gurmukh will always be 100 perfect.

[GuptUnknown]

I'm gonna advise you to do two things;

1. Read the whole of Guru Granth Sahib Jee, Bhai Gurdas Jee's Vaaran and Dasam Granth to understand the meaning of

reality and Truth.

2. Jap more Naam and recite more Gurbani than you are currently doing. Remember that Naam gives you the

experiences not Gurbani, gurbani just helps the Naam. Naam makes you experience reality through various ways.

I'll explain a bit to you -

Firstly, how can someone prove the existence of something/someone spiritual through worldly materialistic ways.

Secondly, it is lowly and ignorant to assume intelligence is limited to this human body and world.

Thirdly, the strongest forces in Kalyug (dark age) are Illusion (Maya), doubt, duality, ego and hate. This world which everyone assumes to be real is an illusion.

nwnk kil kw eyhu prvwxu ]

naanak kal kaa eaehu paravaan ||

O Nanak, this is the sign of the Dark Age of Kali Yuga;

Awpy AwKxu Awpy jwxu ]1]

aapae aakhan aapae jaan ||1||

everyone says that he himself knows. ||1||

To Mat Pulo Rai -

Guru Sahib is the same as Vaheguru so he does not need to ask what action to take. The jyot that was within Guru Sahib's human body when he walked the earth is Vaheguru. Bhai Gurdas Jee explains this in his Vaaran where he states there is only a difference between the Gurmukhs and Guru Sahib; Guru Sahib is 101 perfect as he is the same as Vaheguru so sits on the same throne while the Gurmukh will always be 100 perfect.

. Bolded part is false.... In the sense that you say japing naam and reciting Gurbani are different. Very wrong in the fact that Gurbani doesnt give you expierences.

[Guest Kaal]

GuptUnknown -

Gurbani clearly explains this. Anyone who does Bhagti knows this that Only Naam helps us to reach high spiritual levels of Jyot Vigaas and Bhramgyan. Gurbani helps in a number of ways to empower, help, support and control Naam. For example, the more we recite Sukhmani Sahib the more we will experience through Naam. Naam is the source of Gurbani and everything that exists. Gurbani is Naam expanded.

The way I said it is misleading so I apologise for that. The reason I mentioned it in the first place is to tell the topic starter that you cannot expect to experience the spiritual world by just relying on Naam, or just relying on Gurbani as they both go hand on hand.

[Mat Pulo Rai]

I'm gonna advise you to do two things;

1. Read the whole of Guru Granth Sahib Jee, Bhai Gurdas Jee's Vaaran and Dasam Granth to understand the meaning of

reality and Truth.

2. Jap more Naam and recite more Gurbani than you are currently doing. Remember that Naam gives you the

experiences not Gurbani, gurbani just helps the Naam. Naam makes you experience reality through various ways.

I'll explain a bit to you -

Firstly, how can someone prove the existence of something/someone spiritual through worldly materialistic ways.

Secondly, it is lowly and ignorant to assume intelligence is limited to this human body and world.

Thirdly, the strongest forces in Kalyug (dark age) are Illusion (Maya), doubt, duality, ego and hate. This world which everyone assumes to be real is an illusion.

nwnk kil kw eyhu prvwxu ]

naanak kal kaa eaehu paravaan ||

O Nanak, this is the sign of the Dark Age of Kali Yuga;

Awpy AwKxu Awpy jwxu ]1]

aapae aakhan aapae jaan ||1||

everyone says that he himself knows. ||1||

To Mat Pulo Rai -

Guru Sahib is the same as Vaheguru so he does not need to ask what action to take. The jyot that was within Guru Sahib's human body when he walked the earth is Vaheguru. Bhai Gurdas Jee explains this in his Vaaran where he states there is only a difference between the Gurmukhs and Guru Sahib; Guru Sahib is 101 perfect as he is the same as Vaheguru so sits on the same throne while the Gurmukh will always be 100 perfect.

Wrong.. Theres a shabad in gurbani where guru Nanak says to Vaheguru, did you not feel pity, when you sent the armys of Khurasan which came to conquer India. Also Rama Nandh bani, where he asks god, what do I do, someone is asking me, that they want to Meet you. Gurus used to ask the sangat for advice also, like guru arjan dev ji, when he was summoned before his sheehdi. That bani is in Guru Granth Shaib.

[Guest Kaal]

To Mat Pulo Rai -

bIs ibsuey jw mn Thrwny ]

bees bisueae jaa man theharaanae |

When the mind is totally held in check,

gur pwrbRhm eykY hI jwny ]2]

gur paarabreham eaekai hee jaanae |2|

one sees the Guru and the Supreme Lord God as one and the same. ||2||

Guru Sahib is the same as Vaheguru. Anything Guru Sahib has written in Gurbani is for our sake not his. He has written it as if we are asking for something from Vaheguru. For example, read this -

foln qy rwKhu pRBU nwnk dy kir hQ ]1]

ddolan thae raakhahu prabhoo naanak dhae kar hath |1|

Please protect me, and save me from wandering, God. Reach out and give Nanak Your Hand. ||1||

Why would Guru Sahib need saving?? Vaheguru would not have sent Guru Sahib to earth to save everyone else if he had not saved himself.

pwrbRhmu pUrn bRhim siqgur Awpy Awpu aupwieAw]

paarabreham pooran breham sathigur aapae aap oupaaeiaa|

The Guru has been created in the form of perfect Brahm by the transcendent Brahm.

guru goibMdu goivMdu guru joiq iek duie nwv DrwieAw]

gur gobindh govindh gur joth eik dhue naav dharaaeiaa|

Guru is God and God is the Guru, two names are of the same supreme reality.

Bhai Gurdas Jee explains in the above and below Pauria that Guru Sahib And Vaheguru are the same.

inrMkwru eykMkwru EAMkwir Akwru Apwrw]

nirankaar eaekankaar ouankaar akaar apaaraa|

The formless Lord assuming the form of ekankar created myriad names and forms out of Oankar.

rom rom ivic riKEnu kir BRhmMf kroiV pswrw]

rom rom vich rakhioun kar bhrehamandd karorr pasaaraa|

In His each hairs He has kept the expanse of crores of universes.

kyqiVAW jug vriqAw Agm Agocru DuMDUkwrw]

kaetharriaa jug varathiaa agam agochar dhundhookaaraa|

None knows for how many yugs, ages, there was imperceptible and impenetrable mist.

kyqiVAW jug vriqAw kir kir kyqiVAW Avqwrw]

kaetharriaa jug varathiaa kar kar kaetharriaa avathaaraa|

For many ages continued the activities of many an incarnation (of God).

Bgiq vClu hoie AwieAw klI kwl prgt pwhwrw]

bhagath vashal hoe aaeiaa kalee kaal paragatt paahaaraa|

The same God, for the sake of his Love for the devotees, has appeared in Kalyug (in the form of Guru Sahib).

In the above Pauri, it states that Nirankar recited Onkar to create (big bang) the universe and continued the story/play for many yugs until Kalyug he came onto earth in the form of Guru Sahib.

[singher23]

Wrong.. Theres a shabad in gurbani where guru Nanak says to Vaheguru, did you not feel pity, when you sent the armys of Khurasan which came to conquer India. Also Rama Nandh bani, where he asks god, what do I do, someone is asking me, that they want to Meet you. Gurus used to ask the sangat for advice also, like guru arjan dev ji, when he was summoned before his sheehdi. That bani is in Guru Granth Shaib.

This has been discussed many, many times. Guru Sahib is God, end of story

[Mat Pulo Rai]

This has been discussed many, many times. Guru Sahib is God, end of story

I never said Guru shaib isnt God.. all i was doing was pointing out that Guru shaibs on earth used to ask vaheguru for advice and also the sat sangat

[MsShergill1991]

People have many explanations as to why things are created on this planet, some believe in God(s) and some do not. It helps us to feel secure and to have hope as well as something to believe in, such as religion, which is man made so that is another argument with them altogether. Believing in God gives people hope that they are working towards a better life, such an after life or a good future, the belief in God allows me to talk to him when I have no one else to talk to and makes me feel secure. If you ever come across an Atheist ask them questions such as why do they celebrate holidays such as Christmas and Easter when they have religious meaning to it?

[Guest RavindaSingh]

Maybe you should ask yourselves these questions i do all the time ...

[Shadow]

I watch these debates all the time because I enjoy them but they don't bother me. Why? Because sikhi isn't about proving anything to anyone. Sikhi is about experience and we experience Vaheguru through Naam Abhiyaas. People don't understand the existence of God because they have never meditated and have become spiritually blind.

Is abit of a long read but I think well worth it

To be honest I love commonsensical atheist, as the debates I’ve heard from Christopher hitchens, Dr Kaku, Prof Dawkins are beautiful, what they do is break down religion to nothing, because all most religions have is just faith i.e *i believe in something because it feels right to me* or that Zeus came to me in a dream so is true.

On the other hand you have thoughtful atheist/scientists who test and prod reality and try see what is true and what isnt, just saying something exists doesn’t make it so, its like saying i believe in “witches” doesn’t make it true, you need evidence, facts, to back up your claims, example E=mc2 a equation, was a conclusion of Einstein’s observations of reality, he couldn’t prove it, but it made mathematical sense and was taken on board by most scientist, not all, but from these mathematical equations it lead to the splitting of the atom, and that time space is a like a sheet, and gravity warps its, which were proven some before his death and some just recently, it was because they went and applied this equation they cracked nuclear fusion and thus E=mc2 was excepted.

Unlike Religion, as what they have is *It says this in my Text so it is true* so you either believe it or Go to Hell or something familiarly gruesome. But where’s the proof can you show me God or some tangible evidence, the answer is mostly No.

Myself I believe in a Creator, even with these amazing and right arguments. Why? Is because the religions they are rebutting are false. Sikhism doesn’t teach blind faith as some may have it, it’s based on factual foundations, without this I would probably be staunch atheist, as I base what I do on facts and commonsensical-reasoning, like if someone states a Fact I want proof of the claim or at least some learned theoretical consensus. By following Guru Granth Shaibs I realized that WOW, all this is true, it was eureka moment bigger than if aliens landed on earth or if time travel was possible. As I found out that God is real. I mean the concept God has been around for so long it seems watered down now, like not so important, its only by watching debates from massive minds like Dawkins, Hitchens you realize how amazing existence is, like I remember Dawkins saying that if God was a reality think of the consequences… You would have to change the laws of physics, astronomy, Genetics, and a whole variety of scientifically based subjects, and it’s by this statement knowing of God, is so fantastic, im mind blown pretty much every day.

I also like Prof Dawkins but not Christopher hitchens, I found him too arrogant and rude. I firmly believe in Science and it doesn't hinder my belief in God. Science hasn't proven God doesn't exist and neither has it proven God does exist and it never will because something materialistic cannot prove something spiritual.

If you have doubts, just do what Gurbani tells you which is to Jap Naam.