Negative Article In Toronto Sun

[11Gurus1Jot]

I was always taught that Guru Gobind Singh ji had 5 goats in the tent. Every time he brought one of the Punj Pyaare into the tent, he would cut the head off the goat (jatka style). It only appeared to the audience that he was cutting the heads of the Punj Pyaare. Guru Sahib was testing the sangat to see if they would really die for him.

We need to get our stories straight if we are going to explain stuff to goras. We can't be telling them two different things.

Fair point Sherdil, I heard that version too...

I was told the 5 goat version when I was a 'kid' too (on punn intended). I have also read that version in a few books. However, somebody posed a question, which I thought was briiliant... who was in the tent other than Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaaj and the panj pyare? I believe the answer is that only Guru Ji and the 5 Singhs went into the tent.

There's also the eye witness account from the spy of the enemy of Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaaj. Aurangeb, the enemy of Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaaj sent his own spy called Abu-ul-traifi. He reported his eye witness account which is still preserved today saying he saw all heads removed and attached again bringing back all 5 Singhs back to life - they were reborn!

One last question... if all the Christians can celebrate Jesus rising from the dead, why is it not possible for Guru Ji to do the same? Unless, all Christians are wrong eating easter eggs to celebrate life to represent Jesus coming back to life, from the dead! In my opinion they (both events) either happened, or both did not! Personally, I think us mere mortals cannot appreciate all what our 10 Gurus could do, unless we become true Gursikhs at which point the truth will be revealed to us.

The none Goat version of the Sakhi/ event of Vaisakhi below.

THE LAST REPORT: Eye witness account of Vaisakhi 1699 by Enemy spy!

There were many in Guroo Gobind Singh Ji’s camp whose intentions

altogether were not loyal, the all knowing Guroo knew this. One of

these spies of emperor Aurangzeb was called Abu-ul-traifi. He is

mentioned by the eminent scholar Bhai Vir Singh in his writings. Being

a spy he kept a daily journal of the events that took place for the

emperor.

Below is the translation for the accounts of vaisakhi day:

“On the day Guroo Gobind Singh Ji prepared Amrit in Anandpur, the

attendance in the diwan was about 50 to 70 thousand. The Mughals had

four thrones (seats of imperial power), Delhi, Agra, Lahore and

Kalanur. But the grandeur of Guroo Ji’s throne was in a class by

itself. The grandeur of this throne was out of this world.

Guroo Ji came to the diwan and, unsheathing his sword, spoke in a

thundering voice that he needed a head. No questions or hesitation at

all, Bhai Daya Ram came forward to Guroo Ji. Guroo Ji right in front

of all cut of his head from his body in one stroke. Every body present

was stunned. Then Guroo Ji again thundered and demanded one more head.

Right on Guru’s call, Dharam Chand got up, came to Guroo Ji, bowed his

head and said here is my offering of my head. Guroo Ji again, in one

stroke cut off Bhai Dharam chands head from his body.

Now there was a big commotion in the diwan. But Guroo Ji in his

thundering voice went on demanding heads, one after another. Himmat

Rai, Mohkam Chand and Sahib Ram got up and offered their heads. Guroo

Ji cut off the heads of these three also. Many from the congregation

went to Guroo Ji’s mother and narrated the whole happening in the

diwan to Mata Ji.

Guroo Ji cleaned up the blood from the five bodies and heads, and even

washed the floor, then the Guroo of these infidels stitched one head

with another body, one by one, this process took about three hours.

Then he covered these dead bodies with white sheets.

The Guroo of these infidels then took a cauldron made from stone and

put an iron wok (bowl) without handles on top of it. He then poured

water into the wok and started preparing “Amrit” (aab-e-hyat- elixir

of life). The infidel Guroo kept churning the water with his double-

edged sword and kept on reciting his kalma (Gurbani). This process

went on for 1.5 to 2 hours. During this time a lady came from Guroo’s

house and put something in that water. Now the Amrit was ready.

From the corpses he took the covering sheets off. First he sat on the

head side of Daya Ram and poured Amrit into his mouth, then poured

some into his head and then sprinkled some in his eyes, and then he

asked the dead body to say waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh.

As if on his Guroo’s command, Daya Ram got up and repeated in his bold

voice, Waheguroo ji ka khalsa, waheguroo ji ki fateh.

It appeared that in the entire congregation everybody was so stunned

that it seemed like no one was breathing. There was pin-drop silence.

All the present were mesmerised with their Guroo’s miracle. In the

same manner one after another the Guroo made the other four alive too.

Then he took all five of them into a tent. After a while Guroo Ji

along with the five came out. The five were now wearing new attire

(uniform, bana); those five risen from the dead were standing in a

line. Then their Guroo came in front of them and took bir rasan

(posture of the brave-kneeling on one knee) and asked for Amrit. At

this point, the five asked what are you offering to get this Amrit.

The Guroo said that “I will sacrifice my whole family for the sake of

the panth” then these five gave Amrit to Guroo Ji, and his name was

changed to “Gobind Singh” (from Gobind Rai). The word Singh was

attached with the other fives too, -Daya Singh, Dharam Singh, Himmat

Singh, Mohkam Singh and Sahib Singh.

(I was very remorseful and cried like a baby) After that, thousands

took Amrit. Even, I was attracted like a magnetic force and with

no regret fell on Guroo’s feet. I requested to the Guroo to give

me Amrit too. Guroo Ji already knew about my role as a spy and

traitor, put his hand on my back, gave me Amrit and changed my name to

Ajmer Singh. Just with this act, my sins of numerous lives got washed

away.

(Extract from the last report)

The whole report can be found in the archives of Aligarh University

My true Guroo has the power to kill and revive the dead-

Ang 1142, Dhan Dhan Sahib Sri Guroo Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj

[VanHelsingh]

Wow, I've never come across the 'stitching of heads' account. Honestly!

[11Gurus1Jot]

Wow, I've never come across the 'stitching of heads' account. Honestly!

I know it's very different to the 5 goats version.

However (next bit is directed at everybody not you veerji), look how many things are sewn on now, fingers, hands, faces, hearts etc etc. Guru Ji was ahead of his time. And like I say, if millions and millions of Christians, the biggest religion in the world, can believe that Jesus rose from the dead (by buying Easter Eggs to represent Jesus coming back to life after he had died). Then why couldn't have Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaaj brought the 5 Singhs back to life? (what is the difference?)

Speak to any Christian, they'll say it with unflinching faith that Jesus rose again after he had died.

[VanHelsingh]

Anything is possible when it comes to Guru Ji; bringing the dead back to life or even saving the living from certain death. It's all good in my book. :cool2:

[Only five]

You're referring to Guru Hargobind Sahib aren't you? Any chance you could be more specific so at least I know what I'm looking for?

Also, you must know that I wasn't referring to our Guru Sahibs when I mentioned the issues of 'hiding' and 'explaining', but I was talking about us modern day Sikhs and how we explain such complex and apparently contradictory concepts (to the layman) to non-Sikhs. The implication as you've alluded to above never crossed my mind.

I don't want to keep repeating what has already been said. Here is what already has been written before:

We can take the same lesson from Sikh history. Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj didn't teach the Sikhs in the first instance to start wearing shastar and use them now. Instead Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj in his Sixth form taught us to pick up shastar and train in them. This was close to 140 years later. Was Satguru hiding this from the people, so they don't run away and say to Guru Sahib your just like the Muslims....wanting to cause terror to conquer? No! Satguru knew the Sikhs first need to build their jeevans at the spiritual level and then they can use shastar.

[VanHelsingh]

I don't want to keep repeating what has already been said. Here is what already has been written before:

We can take the same lesson from Sikh history. Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj didn't teach the Sikhs in the first instance to start wearing shastar and use them now. Instead Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj in his Sixth form taught us to pick up shastar and train in them. This was close to 140 years later. Was Satguru hiding this from the people, so they don't run away and say to Guru Sahib your just like the Muslims....wanting to cause terror to conquer? No! Satguru knew the Sikhs first need to build their jeevans at the spiritual level and then they can use shastar.

And I keep saying to you I wasn't referring to Guru Ji when I talked about 'hiding' and 'explaining'. How many more times must I need to tell you? I was referring to us, normal Sikhs, and how we explain such concepts to non-Sikhs.

I don't know whether you do this deliberately in order to divert the discussion to a place you feel you can "win" or this is simply a misunderstanding on your part. Either way you need to read my original post (which is unedited) and find the section where I talk about US trying to explain these concepts to non-Sikhs who may find them contradictory.

Please don't try to equate 2 + 2 = 5. You're better than that.

[Sherdil]

I don't want to keep repeating what has already been said. Here is what already has been written before:

We can take the same lesson from Sikh history. Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj didn't teach the Sikhs in the first instance to start wearing shastar and use them now. Instead Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj in his Sixth form taught us to pick up shastar and train in them. This was close to 140 years later. Was Satguru hiding this from the people, so they don't run away and say to Guru Sahib your just like the Muslims....wanting to cause terror to conquer? No! Satguru knew the Sikhs first need to build their jeevans at the spiritual level and then they can use shastar.

The Gurus and their successors were alive at the same time. Doesn't someone have to die in order to be reborn in another form? I think that's something we should think about before explaining it to goras.

[VanHelsingh]

The Gurus and their successors were alive at the same time. Doesn't someone have to die in order to be reborn in another form? I think that's something we should think about before explaining it to goras.

Not in every instance as well you know. I think the jyot of Guruship is what remained consistent throughout our Gurus, i.e. that is why the Gurus should not be seen as having differing agendas (which they did not) but moreso the light within each Guru is what was passed from 1st to 10th (and 11th) and in that single jyot is the complete message for everyone. Our Gurus "mission and message" must be viewed as a singular because the jyot was the one and the same in each Guru.

When it comes to souls, etc., then you would need to ask someone with a lot more knowledge. :biggrin2:

*EDITED for purposes of clarity*

[Sherdil]

Not in every instance as well you know. I think the jyot of Guruship is what remained consistent throughout our Gurus, i.e. that is why the Gurus should not be seen as having differing agendas (which they did not) but moreso the light within each Guru is what was passed from 1st to 10th (and 11th) and in that single jyot is the complete message for everyone. Our Gurus "mission and message" must be viewed as a singular because the jyot was the one and the same in each Guru.

When it comes to individuals souls of our Gurus (i.e. as you said, for example, Bhai Lehna Sahib was alive at the same time as Guru Nanak Dev Ji, therefore Bhai Lehna Sahib had to have had his own aatma in order to exist before becoming Guru) then you would need to ask someone with a lot more knowledge. :biggrin2:

Yeah that's what I was trying to get at. We say they had the same light (jyot). That doesn't mean they were the same person. They just had the same mindset. You put it well. Thanks.

[Only five]

And I keep saying to you I wasn't referring to Guru Ji when I talked about 'hiding' and 'explaining'. How many more times must I need to tell you? I was referring to us, normal Sikhs, and how we explain such concepts to non-Sikhs.

I don't know whether you do this deliberately in order to divert the discussion to a place you feel you can "win" or this is simply a misunderstanding on your part. Either way you need to read my original post (which is unedited) and find the section where I talk about US trying to explain these concepts to non-Sikhs who may find them contradictory.

Please don't try to equate 2 + 2 = 5. You're better than that.

Its obvious that you don't have a grasp of Sikh history to the depth where your able to understand why that example is being presented. Some people get it in the first instance and for some it takes a few seconds and for some it's a life time process......or some purposely don't want to accept it. I'm leave the discussion as now it's gone into discriminating between Maharaj........you won't get bothered by my repititive and illogical post here. Enjoy yourselves to defining differences.

A teaching from the Upanishad Atma is Brahman :stupidme: