Two High Profile Events Coming Up

[SinghWarrior 102]

Earlier you were dictating to the Uk leaders that they must give money to the womansing and human trafficking Baba Daduwal from India lol. First it was Daduwal, and now it is Rajoana. The total lack of thought and intellect is quite scary. No wonder the 'moderate' Sikh majority think that you lot are all nutters and no wonder the elders think you are a liability and dont want to engage with such an unstable and volatile group of people.

Support the UK Sikh leaders and stop trying to pull them down. They were dealing with Panthic issues before you even entered your mother's womb. You should have some respect for their experience and intellect. Trying to engage independently in hot-headed youth led projects is no good for the Panth!

I've personally never advocated leadership of Daduwaal Wale. However, you make grave personal allegations against him. Care to offer any solid evidence, or is this further mud-slinging in this thread?

Rajoana speaks the truth. The truth causes revolutions. This is what our Gurus did - Aad Sach Jugaad Sach, Hae Bhi Sach, Nanak Hosi Bhi Sach.

A lot of "nutters" as you term them see Sikh leadership of constantly selling out on Sikhi asools, most often for preservation of their individual Kursis. This is why youth are disheartened. It's easy for the elders to tarnish the youth as hot-heads, but the truth is that many making the complaints have much intellectual capacity and the "nutters" are also are very active in Sevaa. All this will surprise you no doubt. But the nutters don't like putting themselves on a pedestal for a personal Kursi.

What it seems SCUK has degenerated into is another status quo organisation that preserves the existing things that are wrong. What differentiates "hot-head nutters" is that they are happy to publicly disagree with the elders and will continue to be vocal in making their points. Elders don't like this as it challenges their authority. Elders need to realise that every "hot-head nutter" does not have anything personally against the elders, but they DEFINITELY disagree with the approach elders take on certain issues. Part of this approach is doing back-room deals with others, instead of making oneself openly accountable in front of the Sangat.

[Pyara 288]

Pedrorizzo,

Showmanship is not leadership. Any genuine sevadars who attended this event are clearly overshadowed by the self promoters plugging their own agendas in this so called networking exercise. I question whether the networking was for the Panth or was it too boost individual profiles.

In my simple pendoo world, I look up to the principled Sikh who sticks to his/her agenda.. not the one who goes to Downing Street to do Bhangra. Clearly that’s all your leaders think we’re good for. I wonder if anyone was willing to do join their hands in an Ardas in Downing Street seeing the event was to celebrate Vasaikhi, but bring on Channi Alaap and the Sikhs will join their hands to clap to the beat. You say there is a “time and place”, clearly this was seen as the time and place to Bhangra!

[pedrorizzo 42]

Just to be clear.

i) I did not mention or criticise the Sikh Council UK (or any other Sikh organisation) - please look through the thread. You did however mention the Sikh Federation (UK) - Why. You mentioned 'members' of the Sikh Federation (UK) were present, but now say it does not have a proper membership. As you are unwilling to point to any named individuals on this forum please email info@sikhfederation.com which can then deal directly with the Sikh Council UK.

ii) I am aware of letters and what the UK Government has done - I was however surprised by your bold statement 'talking and negotiating with top politicans', which is not the same as letters.

iii) I do not watch Zee TV.

iv) Given what you say about what the UK Government has done were those (largely youth) who were protesting outside 10 Downing Street on 12 April wasting their time? Are those petitioning the UK Government (which I understand is being supported by the Sikh Council UK) wasting their time?

v) I have not categorically stated there was alcohol, all along have said their appears to be alcohol. Others have said they have confirmed there was alcohol.

vi) It is good the Sikh Council UK (it appears you are a main player) has written confirmation from 10 Downing Street confirming there was no alcohol. Perhaps this could be shared with the membership of the Sikh Council UK.

Your requests are legitimate and should be aired with the Sikh Council directly. Regarding complaints about the event itself, they should be raised directly with Tony Uppal, the main advisor for the Downing Street Event.

However, needless competitiveness and classic Indian leg-pulling on the internet is not helpful for our community.

[pedrorizzo 42]

I've personally never advocated leadership of Daduwaal Wale. However, you make grave personal allegations against him. Care to offer any solid evidence, or is this further mud-slinging in this thread?

Rajoana speaks the truth. The truth causes revolutions. This is what our Gurus did - Aad Sach Jugaad Sach, Hae Bhi Sach, Nanak Hosi Bhi Sach.

A lot of "nutters" as you term them see Sikh leadership of constantly selling out on Sikhi asools, most often for preservation of their individual Kursis. This is why youth are disheartened. It's easy for the elders to tarnish the youth as hot-heads, but the truth is that many making the complaints have much intellectual capacity and the "nutters" are also are very active in Sevaa. All this will surprise you no doubt. But the nutters don't like putting themselves on a pedestal for a personal Kursi.

What it seems SCUK has degenerated into is another status quo organisation that preserves the existing things that are wrong. What differentiates "hot-head nutters" is that they are happy to publicly disagree with the elders and will continue to be vocal in making their points. Elders don't like this as it challenges their authority. Elders need to realise that every "hot-head nutter" does not have anything personally against the elders, but they DEFINITELY disagree with the approach elders take on certain issues. Part of this approach is doing back-room deals with others, instead of making oneself openly accountable in front of the Sangat.

Elders and leaders of jathebandia, sometimes make deals and compromises because sometimes that is what is required in politics. When dealing with sensitive matters, they must be approached carefully and strategically, knowing when to push up the intensity and when to back off. The elders and leaders sometimes make deals and compromises for the greater good and NOT to preserve their own seat. Most have done sewa all of their lives with full time jobs and families and spending money from their own pocket, which youth seem very reluctant to do these days but place a huge list of demands on everybody else apart from themselves.

Youth need to stop moaning and whining and placing huge demands on the leaders. I think that the leaders will be quite receptive if youth want to get involved provided they are calm and reasoned and behave like human beings rather than some kind of hooligan mob. Stop creating a wedge between yourselves and the elders through your own arrogance and hot-headedness.

[pedrorizzo 42]

Pedrorizzo,

Showmanship is not leadership. Any genuine sevadars who attended this event are clearly overshadowed by the self promoters plugging their own agendas in this so called networking exercise. I question whether the networking was for the Panth or was it too boost individual profiles.

In my simple pendoo world, I look up to the principled Sikh who sticks to his/her agenda.. not the one who goes to Downing Street to do Bhangra. Clearly that’s all your leaders think we’re good for. I wonder if anyone was willing to do join their hands in an Ardas in Downing Street seeing the event was to celebrate Vasaikhi, but bring on Channi Alaap and the Sikhs will join their hands to clap to the beat. You say there is a “time and place”, clearly this was seen as the time and place to Bhangra!

Well since you just labelled yourself as a simple pendoo, let me help educate you. In case you did not know Vaisakhi is also a cultural event that existed thousands of years before Sikhs ever did and is celebrated by all religions and not just Sikhs. And yes, although some of you have decided now that bhangra is against the Sikh religion and the root of all evil, I must regrettably inform you that traditionally bhangra is a musical/dance form that is performed at harvest time.

Also let me educate you about the fact that this event was not a religious event nor was it a panthic or protest event. It was a cultural Punjabi event to which prominent individuals from the Punjabi Community were invited. Not necessary leaders. People like Monty Panesar, for example, who is not a leader but a prominent personality. There was no Maharaaj's saroop present. No 'Sikh Leaders' were invited and neither were any Jathebandis. Individuals were invited, not the organisations that they represent.

Regarding your points about the motives of those who were present. It is an interesting point. Sure, some people may have been present to boost their own profile. Others may have used it as an opportunity to network with politicans to gain a foothold when delivering panthic agendas. Some people just came because they were just invited, others may have just wanted a photo with David Cameron.... the list goes on... Who knows what each persons individual motive was for accepting the invitation.

However, what I can tell you is that Sikhs have suffered from our inability to play the political game. It doesnt take a genius to work out that before you can make demands of the Government you have to develop relationships first and use your available channels. The fact is, this is the only second event of its kind to take place and happened through much persuasion. It is a positive step for Sikhs in terms of raising our game. This is the way that a panthic-minded Sikh who had been invited to this event would have seen it... purely as an opportunity to develop relationships that will benefit the Panth.

Now, sure, there may be a wide variation in thoughts and motives. I cant speak on behalf of say Monty Panesar or Channi from Alaap, for example.

So I know that as a simple pindu who is more accustomed to sitting on the sidelines, making stupid jokes, criticising and leg pulling you probably cant help yourself. However, why dont you just reflect on yourself a little bit and think about what impact your negative, critical attitude has on Panthic development and if it actually helps progress in any way?

[SinghWarrior 102]

Elders and leaders of jathebandia, sometimes make deals and compromises because sometimes that is what is required in politics. When dealing with sensitive matters, they must be approached carefully and strategically, knowing when to push up the intensity and when to back off. The elders and leaders sometimes make deals and compromises for the greater good and NOT to preserve their own seat. Most have done sewa all of their lives with full time jobs and families and spending money from their own pocket, which youth seem very reluctant to do these days but place a huge list of demands on everybody else apart from themselves.

Youth need to stop moaning and whining and placing huge demands on the leaders. I think that the leaders will be quite receptive if youth want to get involved provided they are calm and reasoned and behave like human beings rather than some kind of hooligan mob. Stop creating a wedge between yourselves and the elders through your own arrogance and hot-headedness.

So I know that as a simple pindu who is more accustomed to sitting on the sidelines, making stupid jokes, criticising and leg pulling you probably cant help yourself. However, why dont you just reflect on yourself a little bit and think about what impact your negative, critical attitude has on Panthic development and if it actually helps progress in any way?

You never answered my question about your allegations on Daduwaal wale. Please elaborate/provide evidence on your allegations.that he is a "womansing and human trafficking Baba".

You accuse the youth of arrogance and hot-headedness, when your condescending posts display this exact approach. This is not limited to the Vaisakhi event, but a much wider issue: youth will continually be critical when they see their leaders selling out on Sikhi-principles for a "political" game. This is the whole problem - the leaders are engaging in political games with each other to get one over the other. From the outside, it all appears as displays of ego.

Also, if you lot project yourself as our leaders, the Sangat has every right to place demands on you. Don't complain when you can't handle criticism. The fact that you claim you are willing to work with the youth is a bit of a joke. How many Sikh, educated professionals are there under the age of 35/40 in SCUK? Fine - more youth should be willing to be pro-actively involved, but are the elders genuinely trying to blood the next generation? Course not. It's more about them staying at the forefront for as long as possible.

Another point - it's a function of the "political" games that are played amongst leaders promoting themselves/their organisations that is the EXACT reason why youth can't trust the elders to deal with the Panthic agenda with a straight bat. They are forever fearful of being used as a pawn in the ego-game of the leaders.

[pedrorizzo 42]

You never answered my question about your allegations on Daduwaal wale

You accuse the youth of arrogance and hot-headedness, when your condescending posts display this exact approach. This is not limited to the Vaisakhi event, but a much wider issue: youth will continually be critical when they see their leaders selling out on Sikhi-principles for a "political" game. This is the whole problem - the leaders are engaging in political games with each other to get one over the other. From the outside, it all appears as displays of ego.

Also, if you lot project yourself as our leaders, the Sangat has every right to place demands on you. Don't complain when you can't handle criticism. The fact that you claim you are willing to work with the youth is a bit of a joke. How many Sikh, educated professionals are there under the age of 35/40 in SCUK? Fine - more youth should be willing to be pro-actively involved, but are the elders genuinely trying to blood the next generation? Course not. It's more about them staying at the forefront for as long as possible.

Another point - it's a function of the "political" games that are played amongst leaders promoting themselves/their organisations that is the EXACT reason why youth can't trust the elders to deal with the Panthic agenda with a straight bat. They are forever fearful of being used as a pawn in the ego-game of the leaders. This has happened to me when I've tried to get involved in organisations, even on the fringes, to do basic things.

See thats the problem with the youth. You guys are still stuck in the 1980s. The simplicity and directness that you are expecting from leaders simply does not exist. Unless that said individual is a hardliner, a purely religious leader or a bringer of revolution, they will not carry the simplicity and directness that you demand. Actually, that very simplicity and directness, will, in most situations make them a pretty poor leader. Accept it or not, politics is a game. It must be approached strategically and with tact. The fundamental difference between your views and mine is that you believe that the leaders 'play politics' to further their own ego and their own position. I believe that some of them do, yes, however, others play politics for the benefit of the Panth, and because that is simply what they have to do. You also have to strengthen your own position as a leader, before you can effect change. These are just very basic principles that the youth do not understand.

Although, it surprises me that the youth have the brains to know if they are being used as pawns or not in the 'ego-game' of leaders, then why do those same youth flock to hardliner leaders who inflame their passions and still use them as pawns to further their own extremist agenda?

Regarding SCUK, it is a ground-breaking achievement to unite the main Sikh jathebandis such as Federation, AKJ and the cross section of communities that would not otherwise engage such as the Ramgharias, Bhatras and Ravidassias. The purpose of SCUK is not to sit back and take the demands of hot-headed youth and to act them out. It is a national organisation that makes desicions that affect all Sikhs regardless of jathebandi. If you are not allowed to wear kakkars to work, this affects all Sikhs, regardless of whether you are Taksali, AKJ, Khalistani, Congress agent, Rajoana supporter or not. The SCUK was created to provided a national voice on lobbying and campaigning for issues that affect all Sikhs regardless of political affiliation. Because of the huge cross-section of people that it represents, its policies and desicion making must be carefully considered and be inclusive of everybody. For example, if it campaigned for Khalistan, which incidentally the Feds are already doing, then the Ramgharias and Ravidassias would pull out, making the national voice weak again.

The main obstacle to Panthic unity are the extreme views of individual jathebandia. The youth also play a huge part in this. The youth are so determined to bully forward their own agenda, they lose sight of all the other intricacies. There are several young, educated youth working in the Sikh Council. More are welcome and would be encouraged. Believe me when I say that many of the elders would prefer to step down now, if they could, with all of their other responsibilities and obligations. However, the maturity, worldliness, leadership and professional profile is not easily fourth coming from the youth right now.

If the youth can demonstrate the willingness and ability to do this kind of sewa, the SCUK, themselves would be stupid not to bring them in. After all, any organisation worth its salt wants young blood and SCUK is no different.

Regarding demands and criticism, of course these are welcome but they must take place through the correct channels and in the correct settings. Hijacking TV discussion programmes on Sikh Channel and bullying a certain agenda forward is not the way to go about it. You are just creating a wedge.

Regarding Daduwal, I cant provide you any evidence because I dont have his mobile phone full of dirty texts to and from girls and I have got the double page spread that the News of the World did about him regarding Human trafficking. Try the search button on Sikhsangat, Im sure you will find something. Very sorry I cant find you anything more.... you'll just have to call me a liar that is mudslinging because of a personal vendetta and leave it at that.

We can argue all day long but I really dont have time. My humble benti to the youth is, dont intentionally or un-intentionally engage in activities that create a wedge between themselves and the 'moderates' and between themselves and the elders. Be pro-active if you want to do sewa. Support the exisiting organisations and tactfully effect change from within if you think it is required. Lets stop mudslinging and try to come together and support each other.

[Pyara 288]

Pedrorizzo,

In response to your comments above. In short, with my experiences I don’t see the world as you do, but hand on heart my psyche feels demoralised rather than empowered by the ones who proclaim leadership in the Sikh community, be it UK or India. I have an Ucha Sucha view of the Sikh and I believe there are others like me, you can call us deluded, “hot heads” or misunderstood but I feel those high aspirations we have for the Gurmat Panthic approach can only help us strive for quality.

Principles, Honesty and Integrity still mean something into today’s fast paced world and there can political success without the one-upmanship, double standards and brown nosing. Don’t underestimate the interaction us “Youth” have had with our self-appointed leaders over the last 10 years and perhaps try and understand why many of us moved away but not to the side lines.

Going back to these events, if the Sikh leaders possess no clout to influence the drinks menu of a national Sikh event then it shows us how feeble we are at projecting Sikh principles. We can have numerous Sikhs who are Lords, Sirs, Bhai Sahibs and even have our own Council but delayer it and we are still ashamed to make our Gurmat stand. We only have ourselves to blame.

[hsisingh 18]

If you don't drink alcohol, why do u feel the need to prevent other people from drinking alcohol.

It's a reception held in the PM's offices to celebrate Baisakhi..three points:

it was not a religious festival;

it was not held in a place of worship;

no one was forced to attend.

so get a life and stop carping about everything!!

[liveandletlive 13]

What have our elders achieved in the last 20 odd years? I don't see anything of great significance. I think even they would agree with this.

Sikhi is simple and has simple principles. Truth being one of them. Rajoana is a simple truthful man. I think even our elders will agree he is far better than us.

Rajoana has touched people who we could never get to. He is a leader for them.

All our current elders and us included are not able to reach out to these people.

Leadership skills you ask? If a leader can't reach out and stay in touch with his people then what kind of leader is he? I don't class all these jathebandian as leaders. Yes they are a big part of the Panth but by no means are they leading me. I respect them but they lack leadership skills if you ask me.

Everyone needs to stop being divisive. I agree alcohol should not be served at any event involving Sikhs. If people want to drink that is up to them. But we should be able to tell the world that Sikhs don't drink. I am sure everyone can live without a drink for 1 evening.

[liveandletlive 13]

If you don't drink alcohol, why do u feel the need to prevent other people from drinking alcohol.

It's a reception held in the PM's offices to celebrate Baisakhi..three points:

it was not a religious festival;

it was not held in a place of worship;

no one was forced to attend.

so get a life and stop carping about everything!!

Don't worry 'hsisingh' no one is stopping you from drinking. Feel free.

Three points:

This is a Sikhi Forum

This is not a 'stop drinking alcohol' thread

You get a life

[InderjitS 1,244]

Leaders require leadership qualities and Rajoana does not have them. Its easy to raise slogans from your prison cell and walk around with a big chest and curled up moustache. If you think those are leadership qualities, then you really are on a different planet.

Please enlighten all the many thousands of Sikhs around the world that believe Bhai Balwant Singh should be the next Jathedar what these leadership skills should be. Every supporter of Balwant Singh hangs on every word they utter rather than the current leaders who are mere puppets of the Badal sarkar. Someone who guides and inspires other can be classified as a leader and Bhai Sahib has managed to do that through his letters. If he was provided with a platform to speak on openly, many more will be willing to follow him. It is due to their Bhagti of 14-16 hours per day, that the whole of the panth became united in such a short space of time.

I'd like to see how chardikala you would be and whether you'll even be able to speak if you was about to be hanged.

[hsisingh 18]

Don't worry 'hsisingh' no one is stopping you from drinking. Feel free.

Three points:

This is a Sikhi Forum

This is not a 'stop drinking alcohol' thread

You get a life

I'm not sure that response was worth the hour or two it probably took you to come up with...

[pedrorizzo 42]

Please enlighten all the many thousands of Sikhs around the world that believe Bhai Balwant Singh should be the next Jathedar what these leadership skills should be. Every supporter of Balwant Singh hangs on every word they utter rather than the current leaders who are mere puppets of the Badal sarkar. Someone who guides and inspires other can be classified as a leader and Bhai Sahib has managed to do that through his letters. If he was provided with a platform to speak on openly, many more will be willing to follow him. It is due to their Bhagti of 14-16 hours per day, that the whole of the panth became united in such a short space of time.

I'd like to see how chardikala you would be and whether you'll even be able to speak if you was about to be hanged.

The individual should be balanced, mature, professional, diplomatic and appeal to a cross section of people in the Panth, not just the Kharku supporters. They should also be respected and have the ability to deal with other nations and other communities. They need to have a very good understand of politics, history, law and of the economy, or, at the very least have access to a good team of people around him that can give that advice.

At present, Rajoana, has demonstrated that he is a good fighter, fearless, has a good physical presence, good Sikhi jeevan and charisma and is able to inspire people via his letters from Jail, certainly within the context of Shaheedi etc. He has some leadership attributes. However, to be convinced of his suitability, I would want to see his skills in diplomacy, his vision for Sikhs and the Panth, his knowledge and ability regarding politics, history, law... His ability to analyse, work in a team and his ability to handle sensitive matters in a mature manner.

At present, he has convinced a section of the Sikh community that he should be made jathedar... mainly Kharku-supporters, Taksalis and Khalistan activists. However, if wants to be jathedar, he still needs to convince the moderate Sikh majority that he is the man for the job, not to mention the SGPC and the Akali Government, who will not let anyone in there that they deem to be a threat to the stability and uneasy peace that already exists in Punjab. Rajoana will be seen in my circles as a terrorist. He is hated by Hindus and many urbanite Sikhs. He will need to prove that he is a peaceful man and not a hardliner. He will also need to be let out of jail, in order that he can properly do his job as a Jathedar.

Basically, I believe that it is totally impossible for Rajoana to be made jathedar because the things that I have mentioned simply will never happen. You might as well give up on this silly campaign now. Rajoana will never be released from jail. He will never be accepted as a Sikh leader by the majority of the community unless he compromises on certain things that make him who he is, which of course he will never do. He will never be allowed to be jathedar by the SGPC and Akali Dal because he would have to compromise on certain things which again he would never do. He would also have to be released from jail, which, would never be allowed either by the Badals, the SGPC, and nor by the Hindus of India that would not want to see him released. He doesnt not have the educational background, nor the knowledge of history, politics and law, nor does he have the skills of diplomacy.

I respect Rajoana for what he did to Beant. I respect him for his Sikhi asools and for inspiring/waking up Sikhs. However, he is not the right man for the Jathedar post or any other leadership position, certainly regarding a post that represents the whole community. He could take up a seat with say Simranjit Singh Manns group or Dal Khalsa or something like that, but not a position like Akal Takhat Sahib jathedar. There are too many influential people that would not let it happen and there are not enough people that support him in the way that you think they do. You are overestimating his popularity and his support.

Rajoana should be respected for what he did and it should just be left at that.

Regarding your last point, I never said that I wanted to be a leader or Akal Takhat Sahib Jathedar. And you are right, I probably wouldnt be as fearless and enthusiastic about being hanged as Bhai Rajoana is.

[liveandletlive 13]

I'm not sure that response was worth the hour or two it probably took you to come up with...

It was well worth it. It only took 20 seconds. I'm not sure if you were drunk as I replied straight away. It probably seems like 2 hours when you are drunk.