Benti - Requesting Valuable Input From Sikh Brothers-Sisters In Uk

[Mehtab Singh]

Can our Sikh brothers and sisters from UK answer this question please...

Why is this issue with Muslims so rampant only in UK?

Don't get me wrong, but over the past several years I have read tons of stuff about what Muslims do to Sikh girls in UK. I grew up in Dubai, work in US and have friends and family in Canada as well, but rarely heard anything about any such "movement" by Muslims to convert Sikh girls in any of these locations. In fact I find it shameful that even in Islamic countries Sikh girls are not considered "targets" as much as they seem to be looked upon in UK. We cannot entirely blame the Muslims in UK for this. You guys need to do some sort of introspection, some kind of self-analysis as to WHY its harming you. Sikh girls also end up marrying Hindus, but unless I missed something out, I doubt Hindus have a "movement" that requires them to "trap" Sikh girls the way UK Muslims do.

Once again, don't get me wrong. I am just sick and tired of reading all these whining threads with the same garbage over and over again over the past several years. On one hand we say that UK has the 2nd largest number of Sikhs outside India, that UK has shastervidya much more than any other western country (no doubt), etc. etc. and what not. But what are the results? UK also has such a massive number of Sikh girls falling prey to such guys.

I repeat my question before I conclude. Where have we (or rather, where have you guys) gone wrong? Why is this issue such a huge problem for UK Sikhs as compared to other Sikhs in other countries? What is it that is missing?

No, please don't give me the same answers (parents don't give kids Gurmat knowledge in childhood, girls fall victims to Bollywood/Gora culture, Muslims are this-that, our girls are naive...etc etc), lets hear something new for a change.

Seeing the Guru's qaum whine over such a pathetic issue would be irritating for anyone who holds the Khalsa Panth with the highest esteem. Its time to think and take constructive action. Lets try and brainstorm a bit, and may I also request Sikh brothers and sisters from other countries to give their input as well, as to howcome they've kept a tab on this menace.

Please keep this discussion clean, I request no personal attacks or profane terms. Lets discuss respectfully without putting anyone down or mocking their views in any manner.

[RebelSingh]

erm well 1st of all uk has got the largest sikh community outside india, 2ndly the main reason for the problems regarding our girls is because the muslims who r majority in these crimes are mirpuri (azaad kashmir) ''pakistanis''. They are reffered 2 as chavs/gypsy/backward tribal ppl. In places like canada/barcelona/america the majority of pakistanis r pathans/panjabi or sindhi's (karachi ppl). this is y u never c canadian or scottish sikhs moanin bowt this sort of stuff, because its mostly panjabi muslims who live in places like edinburgh/glasgow/brampton/surrey etc.

ive said it for long time now, these mirpuris should all be sent back, ask any panjabi/pathan pak wat they think of them, and watch how for the nxt 10 mins they describe their hate for them. Bangladeshis also hate these guys with a lot of anger, coz as muslims themselves aswel, the bad actions of mirpuri rolls over 2 bangali's too.

In the uk the ethnic monopoly follows as (in my opinion);

Panjabis (sikh/muslim) - lawyers/Dj's/some restaurants/some cornershops/finance jobs etc

Bangladeshis - restaurants

Gujaratis - Doctors/Cornershops/finance jobs

mirpuris - chicken n chip shops (which is a front for drug dealers)/Drug dealers/Seek govt money (benefits) with 7 kids in 1 house/taxi drivers (which is another front for drugs/prostitution)/jihadi preachers/prostitution and child grooming.

they r a disgusting race, they never let their girls wear english clothes (only salwar kameez), they have cousin marriages, produce abundance of disabled kids as a result.

oh yea and no one likes em!

[West London Singh]

You're misunderstanding the problem, Mehtab Singh. Its not a problem with the nature of Sikhs in the UK. Its a problem with the psyche of muslims in the UK. I'm sure even the US State Department would admit that the UK has the highest amount of fundamentalist muslims in the world, and 99% of them are 2nd and 3rd generation UK born. To get to the bottom of that you need to examine the peculiar nature of multi-culturalism practiced in the UK. An example of it can be seen in visits to Punjab. There, you will find the Canadian flag and American flag proudly being displayed by Canadian and American Sikhs, but you will never, ever, find a British Union Jack being displayed by a UK Sikh. Ever. There are 2 reasons for this. Firstly, because as Europeans, flag waving and nationalism has since world war 2 been considered poor taste and thus it is only the right wing facists that display the national flag. Secondly, because no matter how many generations non-whites in England have been in England we always consider our nation to be the nation our grandparents were born in. Thats why 4th generation blacks in London consider themselves Jamaican rather than British. Thats why we 3rd and 4th generation London born Sikhs consider the Nishan sahib to be our flag and Punjab to be our nation rather than England. In the same way, the British born muslims are drawn to the pan-islamic identity. They identify with every muslim nation on earth, but not England. Just like our allegience lies with Punjab, and not England, their allegience lies with Islam, not England. This is why the dynamics here in England are so very different to that in Canada and America and probably why north American Sikhs find it difficult to understand the problem. On top of that you have one very profound difference between the Pakistanis in England and those in Canada and America. The first point to notice is that the Pakistanis greatly outnumber the Sikhs in the UK. But the most important point is the type of Pakistanis the UK has. On visits to Canada and America I noticed how most of the Pakistanis seem to be either Punjabis or modern pashtuns. Here in England, however, the vast majority of Pakistanis are Mirpuris. Amongst Pakistanis in Pakistan they are known as 'jangli' types, i.e very criminal minded and backward. Amongst this group, petty crime is a way of life, and the act of using girls is a natural by-product of this general immorality.

Now......Lets put things in perspective though. We, in the UK, have an almost zero problem of Sikh girls marrying Christians and Hindus. Of course it happens, but in such small numbers it ain't even worth mentioning. In contrast, on my visits to north America, I noticed how extremely common it is there for Sikh girls to marry into, and by default become, Christian. What you will notice then, is that the UK Sikhs tend not to ignore their problem. They make a big scene out of it. In contrast, there is total silence from the Canadian and American Sikhs regarding their far bigger problem of Christian / Hindu marriages. Thus, I can't help but feel that the title of this thread should actually have been : "Question to Canadian and American Sangat: Why don't you learn from the UK Sikhs and do and say things to stop your sisters marrying outside the faith ? "

[Mehtab Singh]

Good informative points WSL, thanks!

[JSinghnz]

The whole situation of conversions of Sikhs to other faiths shows our poor upbringing, our weak character,

our so called" extreme open mindedness", our failure to teach our mother language to our children and most

importantly not giving any knowledge about our great religion to our off spring. Parents are far too busy for imparting their fundamental

duties towards their children. How can these children then be blamed to be attracted to different religions and be so easily

converted when they become adults. These children have no pride whatsoever to be Sikhs, so how on earth can they think of Punjab

as their nation? They have no idea of our glorious past and the innumerable sacrifices given by our ancestors. We were the bravest of the brave

and look at our present state of affairs. It is very easy to blame others for our downfall but this is not the right answer to the problem which

has created by our own people.

[Mehtab Singh]

JSinghnz, what would you suggest as some key steps to be taken in order to curb all those issues you listed.

Please share.

Thanks

[VanHelsingh]

I've always considered this situation from a different point of view, and one that might get eyes rolling upwards but I consider to be as valid as the points identified above. Note, I am only referring to the issue of Sikh females and Islamic conversion.

From a theological point of view, is it impossible to disagree with the fact that one of the major contributing factors to the formation of the Sikh faith was the unimaginable horrors being meted out to the people of India at the hands of the Islamic Mughal empire?

Of course, there are other contributing factors which necessitated the need for Sikhi, i.e. the societal injustices and general irreligious practices rampant throughout Indian society perpetrated by the followers of the Hindu faith, and, you might argue, the anti-religion, anti-spiritual and anti-equality ideological and theological philosophies at the heart of Hindu scripture.

But let's return to the Islamic problem. Whilst it is accurate to state that one cannot tarnish a whole race or religion of people due to the actions of it's leadership and select group of its followers, it is worth bearing in the mind that if God (and this is where I suspect eyes will begin to roll) had wanted us to remain as Hindus or convert to Islam, he would not have deemed it, in his infinite wisdom, necessary for the Sikh faith to come into existence.

So, depending on your adherence to and understanding of the Divine, you can argue that Sikhi was a gift that many, many people found something of worth contained within it's doctrines - even as early as the years in which Guru Nanak Paatshah existed.

Therefore it is not unreasonable to assume that those early followers who embraced Sikhi, as well as those who began to be gradually born into the faith, were being viciously assailed by two equally determined yet decidely different forces. The first being Indian / Hindu society and its thousands of years old traditions and culture which were the first obstacle for any Sikh wishing to practice his or her faith. These traditions were not external influences but issues which you'd find in the home, amongst one's family and elders, superstitions and practices which our Gurus deemed unnecessary and incorrect. I would assume one would have a hard time of letting go of a way of life when all those around you were so entrenched in their beliefs and their ways that there had to be friction between family members, friction between families in a village or city, tension between those who wanted to follow this new way of God and those who could not envisage relinquishing their centuries-old ways.

Then there's the external upheavals and sturggles occuring outside the individual or even familial unit. The bloodthirsty, unforgiving desire of the Islamic rulers of India to convert the population to Islam and make every man, woman and child 'qabool the Islamic deen' was an unescapable fact of life at the time. So if you'd managed to placate relatives and family members after having started following the holy Guru Nanak (and his successors) then you had to tackle the Islamic problem. But this 'problem' was on a completely different scale to the aforementioned issues between family members and the immediate community; this was a matter of life or death. It was either embrace Islam and accept Allah as your God, or face death along with your loved ones.

Yet Sikhi still found a way in the face of such odds.

For those of us who recite our Ardaas on a daily basis, is it just myself who shudders whenever I read the following:

"Jina Singha, Singhniya Ne Dharam Hait Sees Dithe, Bandh Bandh Khataiye, Khopriyan Lahaiyan, Charakiyan Teh Chareh, Aareya Naal Charaye Gai, Gurdwareya Laiy Qurbaaniya Dithiya, DHARAM NAHI HAREYA...."

Let me translate: "Those Male and Female Sikhs who gave their heads for their faith, were dissected alive into finger-like pieces, had their scalps removed, were hoisted onto circular saws and crushed, were sawn alive into chunks, who gave their lives for the honour of their holy shrines, NOT ONCE DID THEY RELINQUISH THEIR FAITH..."

'Dharam Nahi Hareya'. It's as simple as that. We never accepted Islam. We never bowed down to the faith of the crescent and moon. We accepted death before we would ever dream of becoming part of the hordes of those who practiced sunnat. Even in recent history during the partition of India, Sikh fathers found it agreeable to kill their own females before they would allow them fall into Muslims hands. Can you imagine having the heart to do such a thing?

Now what do we have? We have females in our faith embracing the Islamic faith, either out of their own volition because of "love" for a follower of Mohammed or equally through deception and the use of dark arts.

Is that it? Is this where it ends for us? Was it that easy? It seems like Islam will finish the job it started in 15th century India, but instead of doing it by the sword, our females will flock to the sides of their Mohammaden lovers willingly. Do not for one moment assume the Mohammaden will respect the kaffir female. She is war booty, a prize, a trophy clinched from the grasp of the enemy and brazenly brandished underneath the noses of those he wishes to spite. Yet our females consider US to be the enemy because we suggest they do not indulge their base passions with the followers of the faith who desired our destruction and still certain quarters consider us apostates and unbelievers?

Whilst I do not labour under the illusion that all followers of Islam desire our destruction, any Sikh with an iota of dardh for the sacrifices and ordeals of his forefathers will never entertain a union with a Muslim.

I've heard in recent years non-Sikhs (and Sikh females) respond to talk such as what I've stated above in disparaging and dismissive terms. They dismiss our blood-soaked history at the hands of the Mohammadens by saying "Move on. Jeez, stop living in the past. We should all mix and mingle together sexually. Those were ancient times - everyone has moved on." Fair points but I have one reply to anyone who dares sweep away the blood of our ancestors: Go tell a Jew in 500 years time to forget the Holocaust. Tell a Jew to move on and stop living in the past. Tell a Jew that they should stop bleating on about the Holocaust because it was a long time ago and everyone has moved on. I dare anyone to tell a Jew to forget their tragic, blood-drenched history for the sake of something as base as sex, lust, and the apparent emotion of love.

Such is the lust and rampant sexual desire strangling all sense of decency and respect, some of our sisters feel no compunction in not only crossing the line but erasing the line after having crossed it.

We are a weak-willed, directionless people quick to abandon the old ways even if they are perfectly good, just for the sake of modernity. Some of us are ashamed of our background, our faith and consider everything and anything to be fair game even those things that should be set in stone. Why is it that when others, such as the Muslims, put up such a struggle against external forces who wish to harm them, we embrace those very same forces but do not even realise we are being made fools of? Is there anything us modern-day Sikhs will ever cherish and hold onto? Will we ever be firm on a philosophy and set of beliefs withour caving into popular opinion of the time?

Anyway, this post has gone on for too long and I'm certain nobody is reading this. I'm most probably rather wrong in what I've stated but these are my opinions and, for better or worse, are mine and mine alone. Apologies if anyone has been offended. BTW, my gripe is not with Muslims despite appearances. But you have to draw a line somewhere. I know where it is and I'm sure many others do.

[Mehtab Singh]

Brilliantly put Kaljugi. I am speechless.

[VanHelsingh]

Brilliantly put Kaljugi. I am speechless.

Apologies brother, I should've made clear that you already know everything I've written above, and a lot more besides, so it wasn't solely for your eyes. I just had a lot of issues on my mind since yesterday and this topic nicely coincided with a few things I felt I had to air.

[JSinghnz]

Awesome answer, Kaljugi.

This hits the nail on the head,

"Whilst I do not labour under the illusion that all followers of Islam desire our destruction, any Sikh with an iota of dardh for the sacrifices and ordeals of his forefathers will never entertain a union with a Muslim."