Gurbani Tika/katha

[rrss 94]

I have recently had my understanding of a section of Gurbani changed as a result of listening to the context in Katha. Context makes a big difference.

My question is- what is the definite literary source of Tika's and Katha's and contexts behind Gurbani. Unlike other religions, Sikhism doesn't really have churches or monestaries where the sole purpose of people is to become experts and pass on this priestly knowledge from one to another; Granthis and jathedars are not pandits, archbishops or monks (who have to undertake years of religious study and training).

Is it purely based on third-party (Not by Gurus) writings and scholarly research that people have done mostly after the Gurus time? If so how can one be certain of the stories they tell about contexts or rely on the conclusions they have reached?

If it is based on word of mouth, what would happen after thousands of years, as has happend with Christianity where there are different stories in different Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John etc, some differing greatly).

[SunSingh 280]

sikhism does have schools where the sole purpose is to train people to become granthis and kathakars. they are the main preservators of sikh knowledge, along with our various historical granths.

[rrss 94]

Point taken about schools (although I still stand by the point that a granthi is not commonly a religious scholar), but what about the contexts. I'm not aware of Guruji or Akal Takht approving of any specific piece of literature or source being the comprehensive and undistorted Gurbani Tika guide.

Sikhism today already has schools of thought. There are disagreements on meanings. There are conflicting stories and contexts.

This surely is a fundamentally important aspect of Sikhi- if so much of the understanding depends on varying viewpoints, which can change as and when society changes and things get distorted, then the message of Guruji will get lost.

[HKaur16 210]

A reliable source of understanding gurbani is by listening to a mahapurakh brahmgiani's katha :biggrin2:

If it is based on word of mouth, what would happen after thousands of years, as has happend with Christianity where there are different stories in different Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John etc, some differing greatly).

Brahmgianis and mahapurakhs will always be on earth

[rrss 94]

A reliable source of understanding gurbani is by listening to a mahapurakh brahmgiani's katha :biggrin2:

Brahmgianis and mahapurakhs will always be on earth

Thanks for the suggestion HKaur ji. How reliable is the katha, what is the literary basis of it? Has he any studied reference material of Guruji's personal diaries or has he studied himself and reached a conclusion?

Admittedly there will always be enlightened individuals including (self-proclaimed) 'Sat' Gurus who make use of Gurbani, but they may not express their understanding quite like Nanak ji did or intended. I shudder at the idea that future generations may have to sit in Deras for satsangs because of lack of a rigid scholarly body in Sikhi.....

[dalsingh101 411]

How reliable is the katha, what is the literary basis of it? Has he any studied reference material of Guruji's personal diaries or has he studied himself and reached a conclusion?

Very interesting topic!

I think at the very outset we need to acknowledge that super rigorous, critical analysis is a relatively new thing with religions, but the concept of scrutinising and judging 'narratives' that come down to us is not a new thing. A good early example would be the way Muslim scholars evaluated Hadiths for reliability in the past.

Having recently had the wonderful experience of hearing, homegrown, indigenous Sikh katha first hand via katha Giani Thakur Singh, I noticed that they refer to Sikh historical texts like Suraj Prakash, Nanak Prakash quite a lot, even these texts are relatively recent creations, though one can't ignore the possibility of some of the contents having antecedents from the Guru's time.

Your question of katha being 'historically authentic' is one I used to wonder about. The conclusion I've reached thus far goes along the lines of:

Today we live in so-called 'post-enlightenment' era, characterised by a purported high value on 'empirical data' and 'critical analysis' and rational, logic based on this. In fact if you think about it, that's why you are asking the question you are. These 'modern' ideas came to Sikhs in a big way via colonialisation, but that isn't to say that there was never any concern for accuracy in the past. My point is that up until very recently, human societies conveyed messages of importance amongst their members through narratives, or stories. These can take many forms but the prevalence of mythological accounts in EVERY single community up until recent times tells us this was the norm. You can take a blinkered look at say 'but they are based on falsehood and flights of imagination', but that would be very imprudent. When we break all of these narratives down, they communicate matters of importance to the society they speak to. And THAT is their value and importance, regardless of literal, historical 'truth'. Katha is about extending understanding, and a kathakaar needs to grasp the mindsets of his audience and impart knowledge to them in an easily processable way. When we see it like that, it doesn't matter if a given context is genuinely historical, what matters is if the correct message is imparted, so I'm sure kathakaars may have used their imaginations to help smooth out the process of embedding Sikh values in people's minds.

As a practical example I've personally experienced consider Giani Thakur Singh's use of the idea that pauris of Japji Sahib are based on questions asked by nath jogis (a short of extention of the narrative around the Siddh Gohst bani). Now personally, I have no way of knowing if this is literally true, but the fact is that using this mechanism can help elucidate aspects of Japji Sahib (or other bani) brilliantly by bringing out the question and answer style in the bani. This isn't falsehood, but simply conveying moral, ethical values and theological matters in a way that has been done since time immemorial. So the focus moves to the important information underlying the katha rather than literalistic interpretations. And it doesn't matter if people want to literally believe anyway because one way or the other, what really matters is imbibing the moral, spiritual, essence in any case.

[HKaur16 210]

Thanks for the suggestion HKaur ji. How reliable is the katha, what is the literary basis of it? Has he any studied reference material of Guruji's personal diaries or has he studied himself and reached a conclusion?

Admittedly there will always be enlightened individuals including (self-proclaimed) 'Sat' Gurus who make use of Gurbani, but they may not express their understanding quite like Nanak ji did or intended. I shudder at the idea that future generations may have to sit in Deras for satsangs because of lack of a rigid scholarly body in Sikhi.....

Dalsingh101 ji has described this in a very well manner.

I am not very experienced to answer in depth. But it all depends on sharada. None of the spiritually enlightened Mahapurkhs will claim to be "Sat" Gurus.

[SunSingh 280]

There are lines of enlightened teachers that come from the time of the Gurus. These lines are called sampradas and knowledge of Sikh dharm has been passed along orally in these unbroken chains up to the present day. I have read that there was very little variation in the amrit sanchar between groups, this shows the value of orally transmitted knowledge. In fact, orally transmitted knowledge has sufficient reliability that native groups in canada are able to use it in courts to establish land claims! There are also written sources of knowledge. For example, the damdami taksal claims to have access to a handwritten gutka sahib, written by shaheed bhai mani singh ji, as well as his handwritten pothi on rahit maryada. For the sake of preservation they don't disclose the location, but I am aware that sants of other sampradas (Sant Jagjit Singh Harkhowal) know about these and am hopeful that one day they will be disclosed to the panth.

[osingh 207]

For arths (meanings) of Gurbani daas would highly recommend Prof Sahib Singh ji's steek which is available on srigranth.org and http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/

No one can claim to do perfect arth's of Gurbani. Also as we progress in spirituality we will understand Gurbani more. As well as reading arths from various scholars it also important to increase our avastha (spiritual state) by engaging in Paath, Naam Simran and keeping Rehit, Amritvela.

As we go further in spirituality we get more anand and rass from Gurbani and a better understanding.

Another teeka which is good but not readily available is by Giani Harbans Singh ji Nirnaikaar, however this not yet available on-line. Also one can listen to Giani's from Sampradayak background on Gurmatveechar such as Giani Gurbachan Singh ji Bhindranwale.

Rabb Rakhe

[N30S1NGH 3,090]

Agami Gurbani speaks to every human consciousness at different stage or avastha. Hence rightly so, no sampardaie teekakar claim that their arths of gurbani are sampooran(complete). Claiming to have full interpretation of agami gurbani is like individual claiming that they have found end of nirgun chaitan bhram Vahiguroo..!!..All though bhramgyani interpretation of gurbani is pretty much gives you tat gyan of gurbani but they themselves don't claim- this is it as their own consciousness is experiencing Agami Gurbani in its own unique and diverse way as there are many endless aspects (eg-sargun nirgun) of Vahiguroo.!!

It's usually bhramgyani over zealous chelas who misses the big picture or plot and confine themselves to their mahapursh or bhramgyani interpretation of gurbani which is also somewhat an road block in one's spiritual growth, the real message of bhramgyani to an student is to focus on message or work towards your own spirituality to actually experience gurbani yourself rather than typically imitating the teacher. No bhramgyani or sampardaaie teekakar will claim, follow my teeka. They have made attempts to present agami gurbani in most profound manner but at the end, all their work- teeka, interpretation etc along with themselves looses themselves in Agami Gurbani..!!

There is nothing wrong with using teekas to help us understand gurbani but the real profound experience of gurbani comes from nirgun paratma via one own's spiritual growth in stages...defining agami gurbani exactly in its pure original total form is like defining Nirgun all prevading Vahiguroo which our own guru sahiban didn't put any defining limit or end to it !!..

At the end, one must come to terms and all bhramgyanis naturally have that its not about defining gurbani so much so in teeka or steek form but rather loosing your self in agami Gurbani and becoming part of ~~ IK ONGKAR ~~..!!!!!!!!!

[SunSingh 280]

Admittedly there will always be enlightened individuals including (self-proclaimed) 'Sat' Gurus who make use of Gurbani, but they may not express their understanding quite like Nanak ji did or intended. I shudder at the idea that future generations may have to sit in Deras for satsangs because of lack of a rigid scholarly body in Sikhi.....

Hope this doesn't cause you to shudder, but you actually do have to sit in deras for the deepest knowledge of Gurbani. OR learn from a mahapurkh elsewhere. This has always been the case b/c scholars are only able to give you partial knowledge, no matter how great the scholar. This is why Guru Granth Sahib ji says learn about the Gurus teachings from the sants.