An Open Letter to Sikh Council UK... And to All Others Who Wish to Lead or Represent The Sikh Community

[dalsingh101]

^^^

No I think he is saying that no one 'caste' should dominate the organisation, which is spot on in my books. This thing is the major hurdle for all Sikh orgs right now and has been for a long time.

Let's be frank, certain castes have their own world-view and agendas (say for instance jutts and their issues with a central government (whose regulation of the agricultural sector, they perceive as detrimental to their farming livelihood - as far as I can tell). This shapes their actions. Whereas other Sikhs in different sectors (say construction or traders for arguments sake) for understandable and obvious reasons will not perceive things in this way.

Problem with having one group dominating is that there is a tendency for them to try and make their own 'group issues' centre stage as 'Sikh' ones (as opposed to a Panjabi Farmer one in the above example). And that is EXACTLY what has been going on for a good few decades now - and look where it has got us.

The whole point of a more balanced representation is that singular agendas (which have proved nothing but destructive so far - from what I've seen) can be avoided and the wider community can feel that they are represented/reflected in their leadership.

Currently, we sadly have a situation of 'communal majoritism' where groups outside of the majority are pretty much ignored which leads them to form their own platforms (usually in the form of Gurdwaras), so that they feel that have a stake in things.

All Sikhs genuinely feeling that they have a stake in their communities leadership is a essential requisite for a unified quom. It says a lot that the current set up seems to completely ignore this - purposefully in my opinion, because frankly speaking, many, if not most juts like to believe that they are inherently a cut above nonjut Sikhs - for reasons best known to themselves.

In plain talk, we have to eliminate the insular, tribal instincts in the Sikh community. Not with any tokenism, not by ignoring issues like they don't exist, but by making sure any organisation caters to all Sikhs - ESPECIALLY the vulnerable and traditionally oppressed/suppressed.

So when he talks of ignoring caste, he is talking about a meritocracy that doesn't stifle Sikhs from x or y backgrounds, and one that isn't dominated by the needs and desires of a single caste.

Simple as.

[chatanga]

You know our lot, once they get it, you have to murder them to get them out.

unfortunately true. People who get o this position somehow get a notion that it is for life.

Problem with apne is that we have too many leaders. Everyone wants to be a leader even if they are not worthy of leadership they don't care.

True, i hate this kind of mentality amongst Sikhs, that they think of themselves as more important than the issue at hand/the future of Sikh Quam.

No I think he is saying that no one 'caste' should dominate the organisation, which is spot on in my books. This thing is the major hurdle for all Sikh orgs right now and has been for a long time.

i was at a wedding where Amrik Singh Gill head of the Sikh Fed was talking. He told the sangat that such an accusation had been levelled at the SIkh Council by some tarkhans, that the SC was just funding the 1984 memorial Gurdwara to get another gurdwara for Jatts. He gave a brilliant reply to those idiots who talk this rubbish.

[dalsingh101]

^^^^

So you don't think we have big problems with jut communalism in the panth then?

[chatanga]

we do have problems but some people are blighted by this to such an extent that they see it in absolutley everything.

[dalsingh101]

^^^

Also, many (if not most) juts seem to be oblivious in exactly the same way some ignorant white people think racism doesn't exist out there because they aren't on the receiving end themselves.

I like your attitude. It almost pretty much guarantees a continuation of the current bull5hite.

More people play this down (like yourself) than play it up in my opinion.

[chatanga]

Also, many (if not most) juts seem to be oblivious in exactly the same way some ignorant white people think racism doesn't exist out there because they aren't on the receiving end themselves.

I like your attitude. It almost pretty much guarantees a continuation of the current bull5hite.

More people play this down (like yourself) than play it up in my opinion.

Dal, just say whats on your mind geezer!!

Why does my attitude guarantee a continuation of anything? the fact is that all Sikhs were asked to contribute financially towards it, but although i cant say how many but some, even lets say one then, just to be on the safe side, made this remark that it would be just another Jatt gurdwara.

I cant see what would make someone say something so stupid. Did only Jatts die in bluestar? Its this thinking, of bringing caste into absolutely everything the SIkhs do, that makes us look so silly.

Those people that play it up over issues like the 84 remembrance gurdwara (like yourself?) are making themselves look really stupid. Cant wait for the panth to get rid of imbeciles like these.Or for them to die.

[Shaheed Singh Khalsa]

Great letter! Don't let your rail gaddi come off tho track lads ;-)

[dalsingh101]

@chatanga

I feel I am saying what's on my mind as clearly as possible mate.

BTW, what you've done with your anecdote is give us a PERFECT example of exactly what the letter in the OP and I am talking about. Did you ever consider the background/context of statements like you mentioned? I don't think you have. Did you ever consider why there is such suspicion towards juts? It's well founded in my opinion.

There is a real, longstanding and GENUINE concern that many juts use the Khalistan/1984 issue as some mobilising device without really caring too much about it in reality. Not saying every last jut is on this but plenty are. My former local Gurdwara was a 'Khalistani' one - and all this meant in practical terms was to have a few slogans and perhaps a few pictures of shaheeds up. Nothing else. I knew the pardaans, in reality the last thing they were concerned about was K'stan, and they certainly weren't ever going to take any action about it. That probably sums up the majority of such committees - so are you really shocked at people's cynicism in this respect?

Plus the point about different Sikhs having differing attitudes/perceptions of 1984, or different economic visions visa vis India seems to have gone COMPLETELY over your head.

I supported the idea of K'stan for a long time, I though 84 should be central to issues as well a while ago - that doesn't mean I rode rough-shed over over other Sikhs who might not have felt this way. I didn't do that other narrow minded pendu buckwaas of questioning people's Sikhness' due to differences in opinions in these domains either (let's see who goes down that route first on this thread!).

Real talk - right now we need to urgently deal with SO MANY social/cohesion issues in the UK where we are assailed by other communities and ideologies, that even I question the need for what you spoke about before! Does that make me anti-panthic now???

I don't know where this proposed 84 commemoration Gurdwara you alluded to was planned to be built. If it was in the UK I'd serious question its purpose when we already have plenty of gurdwaras in places that were formerly populated by a sizable Sikh communities, many of whom moved to better/other areas and which are now practically empty most of the time. Sikh ghost towns if you like. We already have big issues securing Gurdwara as Winconsin, and Bow Road Gurdwara has shown us - I suggest we need to concentrate on securing our existing infrastructure before expanding it.

Plus, I'd say any money would be better spent on trying to help victims of 84 directly in any case, we all know we have widow colonies with families in all sorts of dire straights - so why another Gurdwara?

This persistent failure to broaden and accommodate alternate viewpoints (especially political ones) is exactly what causes the fissures that leads up to people breaking off to be able express themselves. That is what the OP is talking about.

I cant see what would make someone say something so stupid. Did only Jatts die in bluestar? Its this thinking, of bringing caste into absolutely everything the SIkhs do, that makes us look so silly.

If you've grasped what I wrote above (if you even care to that is), then you'd see that the above simplification of the situation is ridiculous. Casteism - especially juttism, IS a big issue in the panth. All nonjuts are sick of it, some so -called 'lower castes' to the extent that they have left the panth. But you want to act oblivious and play it down. No, face it. And I know that many juts would rather sweep this gund under the rug than deal with it. You just better become accustomed to people who actually believe that equality is worth fighting for - highlighting it.

Those people that play it up over issues like the 84 remembrance gurdwara (like yourself?) are making themselves look really stupid. Cant wait for the panth to get rid of imbeciles like these.Or for them to die.

I too was waiting for the imbeciles to die, but what you seem to be showing me is that the backwards people seem to be able to replicate themselves in nonthinking younger people who just carry on with the same old crusty cobblers themselves. Nothing different - more of the same old......

And I know you're not an <banned word filter activated> because we've worked on stuff together before - so do I have to put it down to purposeful, willful, motivated ignorance. You sure sound like the older, unimaginative generation to me mate. You sure you're not being groomed to replace them when they die?

Caste is the big, white elephant in the corner too many people ignore - read the Op again - it's one of many issues we have to address. Hopefully we'll get there. The only thing I'm sure of is that we'll need more 'out of the box' thinking to do this and balls to face down the conservatives who persistently try to play it down.

[chatanga]

Caste is the big, white elephant in the corner too many people ignore - read the Op again - it's one of many issues we have to address. Hopefully we'll get there. The only thing I'm sure of is that we'll need more 'out of the box' thinking to do this and balls to face down the conservatives who persistently try to play it down.

Dal you wrote a lot and me ignored all of it except the last paragraph. Only joking bro.

Now i have highlighted this last bit only, because I would like you to explain, how on earth the memorial gurdwara for bluestar can be perceived of as another jatt gurdwara?

the other stuff you written, i know, and the panth is at the moment recognising what harm casteism has done, and now its up to us, you and me and all, to change it. this grooming to take over uncles position's baloney, and what not, i just hope that the other side, who see a mad jatt everwhere arent grooming anyone to take over their uncles positions.

This jatt-a-phobia is doing some damage to getting casteism out of the Panth. Both sides have to approach this rationally.

[dalsingh101]

Now i have highlighted this last bit only, because I would like you to explain, how on earth the memorial gurdwara for bluestar can be perceived of as another jatt gurdwara?

Straight up. Because Sikh 'politics' has been getting abused for decades - going all the way up to the premiere institutes such as the SGPC. The part of my last post quoted below answered your above question in my opinion.

There is a real, longstanding and GENUINE concern that many juts use the Khalistan/1984 issue as some mobilising device without really caring too much about it in reality. Not saying every last jut is on this but plenty are. My former local Gurdwara was a 'Khalistani' one - and all this meant in practical terms was to have a few slogans and perhaps a few pictures of shaheeds up. Nothing else. I knew the pardaans, in reality the last thing they were concerned about was K'stan, and they certainly weren't ever going to take any action about it. That probably sums up the majority of such committees - so are you really shocked at people's cynicism in this respect?

Dude, you come to London man, and all the average 'Mr. Singhs' are really bothered about is their kid's education/grades/job. Sure there may be some consciousness about political issues back home, but these are generally 'lightweight' compared to the concerns about wealth and status which are primary. If you did theoretically open up the 84 commemoration Gurdwara, the people most likely to attend would be the usual crowd, who go to the 84 rally in Hyde Park - plus there is a VERY good chance it will very quickly become another 'Ghost town' unless it is situated in an area with a sizeable Sikh community which do not already have ready access to a Gurdwara - personally I don't see any areas like that myself? And as stated previously, there is a stronger argument for the money being better spent on directly helping the widows and families of the victims of 84.

We have talk about DECREASING the number of Gurdwaras these days i.e. Giani Thakur Singh talking about having one per town - and we already have dwindling attendance in many Gurdwaras - so is opening another one really a solution? We should do better with those we already have, no?.

the other stuff you written, i know, and the panth is at the moment recognising what harm casteism has done,

The fact that 'the panth' has been ignoring the matter for so long should open your eyes. There has been a willful, purposeful suppression by people determined to silence and negate the narratives of other segments of the panth, be this in the form of differing political stances or even differences in practice of faith. This has been been in the face of plenty of reasonable voices that warned about the long term consequences of this on Sikh cohesion. Some of us could see the mess this would cause from miles off.

and now its up to us, you and me and all, to change it. this grooming to take over uncles position's baloney, and what not, i just hope that the other side, who see a mad jatt everwhere arent grooming anyone to take over their uncles positions

I have no idea if they are? But if they are - then they are only doing what juts themselves are doing anyway. My own guess is that most sensible people with any shred of integrity probably see the disgusting mess and hypocrisy going on with certain Gurdwara management 'politics' and give it a wide berth. What remains are a small bunch of myopic pendus battling amongst themselves, with an unrealistic and inflated idea of their importance and influnce 9real and potential) over the panth??

This jatt-a-phobia is doing some damage to getting casteism out of the Panth. Both sides have to approach this rationally

And with that statement you totally negate all of the criticisms of juts as phobia and do EXACTLY what the OP and myself are talking about. back to square 1.

Seriously dude.....

Things are changing so rapidly now that only God knows where the cards will fall for our community. But we will suffer for the decades of mismanagement. Institutional casteism is a reality - and it has a BIG impact on the panth - face up to it.

Anyway caste is just one of the issues highlighted in the OP and you seem to be having difficulties grasping the ideas behind the OP and my posts, so I wont keep going round in circles. It's sad that a younger like yourself, falls into the hole of becoming some sort of PR representative of your caste group, over having a wider, more progressive vision for our community that transcends those old stratifications. Your thinking is too old school dude - and not in the good way.