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As much as I agree with what u say I also disagree. U haven't seen how many idiots actually fall for this. Rab-Rakha for me. But I want to answer this retardness for all the lost Sikhs who are wandering under a delusion that somehow what other religions say about Sikhi is true.

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Why are you posting this topic in so many different posts?

This is the first time I posted this. Related to Shiva that is. Why?

Guru Gobind Singh Ji have written in Akaal Ustat:

"Ek shiv bhae ek gae ek fer bhae raamchandr krisan ke avtaar bhi anek hain ll"

translation: A Shiva was born, he passed away,another Shiva was born again (such gods took birth several times and expired), Likewise, there have been many incarnations of Ramchandra and Krishna.

If a confused sikh asks you...then reply with the quoted Gurbani andask him which Shiv ji is s/he talking about?

If it is a Hindu...simply inform that if everything was supposed to be replicated from their religion...there wouldn't have been a need to form another one. Guru Saheb could have simply inspired the good Hindus to be better Hindus. :dry2:

Their mentality is that overtime Hinduism is advanced. A bit like the iphone. Iphone 1,2,3,4,5.

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Mahadev ko kehat sada shiv, nirnkar ka chinat nai bhiv

Shiva is not akaal purkh

Khalsa akaal purkh ki fauj, pragteyo khalsa parmatam ki mauj

Who made shiva, who gave him weapons?

You dont even have to refute it as Guru Govind singh ji has already refuted it very clearly

Some firmly fasten the idol (of Vishnu) to their neck and some call Shiva their God. Some say God is in the Hindu temple and oth­ers con­sider His abode in the Muslim Mosque.Some call Him (God) Rama, oth­ers Krishna and some identify Him in their hearts with other incarn­a­tions. I have aban­doned all such fake reli­gions and I accept that only God is the cre­ator of liv­ing beings.(12)If you call Rama to be abso­lutely uncon­ceived and unborn, how could He be born of Kaushalia’s womb? If you call Krishna the Immor­tal Being, why was he sub­ject to death?If Krishna was called the apostle of peace and devoid of enmity, then what com­pelled him to drive the chariot of Arjuna ? Recog­nize Him as your Sole Mas­ter whose mys­tery none has revealed and none will be able to reveal.(13)You identify Krishna as the Ocean of mercy, why did the hunter shoot an arrow at him? One who res­cues the dyn­asties of oth­ers, why did he get his own dyn­asty annihilated?One who is deemed as uncon­ceived since the begin­ning, how did he enter into the womb of Devki ? One who has neither father, nor mother, how could Vas­udeva be termed as his father ?(14)Why do you call Shiva your Mas­ter? Why do you describe Brahma as your Supreme Spirit? The lord of the Raghuvansh (Rama), the chief­tain of the Yada­vas (Krishna), Rama’s spouse (Vishnu) whom you con­sider as lords of the uni­verse, were not God.Dis­card­ing the One God, you wor­ship many. Like­wise Sukh­dev, Prashar and Vyas were proven false due to pan­the­ism. All have estab­lished hol­low reli­gions. I believe in One God who reveals Him­self in many modes.(15)Some wor­ship Brahma as God, oth­ers look upon Shiva as their Lord. Some describe Vishnu as the Lord of the world and coerce oth­ers to wor­ship him as by doing so all the sins are eliminated.Con­sider this a thou­sand times, O fool! in the end all these (deit­ies) will aban­don you. Con­tem­plate Him in your mind, who was, now is and shall ever be in future.(16)He made mil­lions of Indras. He made and des­troyed myri­ads of Vaman Incarn­a­tions. He cre­ated demons, gods, Shesh­naga, moun­tains, birds and beasts, who are bey­ond count.Shiva and Brahma have been doing pen­ances to this day but could not find His lim­its. My Guru has told me of the Supreme Lord whose mys­tery is not fathomed by the Vedas and the Semitic texts.(17)”(Guru Gobind Singh Ji, Dasam Granth — 1544)

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ਸ਼ਿਵ ਸਹੰਸ ਬਰਖ ਲੌ ਜੋਗ ਕੀਨ ॥ ਤਜਿ ਨੇਹ ਗੇਹ ਬਨਬਾਸ ਲੀਨ ॥

ਬਹੁ ਕੀਨ ਜੋਗਿ ਤਹ ਬਹੁ ਪਰਕਾਰ ॥ ਨਹੀ ਤਦਿਪ ਤਾਸ ਲਹਿ ਸਕਾ ਪਾਰ ॥੮੨॥

(ATH RUDARA AVTAR KATHANNG (GURU GOBIND SINGH))

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ਸ਼ਿਵ ਸਹੰਸ ਬਰਖ ਲੌ ਜੋਗ ਕੀਨ ॥ ਤਜਿ ਨੇਹ ਗੇਹ ਬਨਬਾਸ ਲੀਨ ॥

ਬਹੁ ਕੀਨ ਜੋਗਿ ਤਹ ਬਹੁ ਪਰਕਾਰ ॥ ਨਹੀ ਤਦਿਪ ਤਾਸ ਲਹਿ ਸਕਾ ਪਾਰ ॥੮੨॥

(ATH RUDARA AVTAR KATHANNG (GURU GOBIND SINGH))

Thank you.

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How do you refute the second comment on this website:

http://neo-sikhism.b...ke-shiv-ji.html

How doe we refute people saying Khalsa and Shiv Ji are same/ Khalsa is a copy of Shiv Ji.

Depending how you look at it and looking at the situation you can use this as missionary tool to bring hindus into sikhi but normally one does not have to go that extreme, vahiguroo mantar if explained correctly to hindu should be more than enough to bring hindus into sikhi fold.

1 According to puratan interpretation of japji sahib by sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale- bhrama(sato) is creator, vishnu(rajo) is preserver shiv ji(tamo) is destructive force.

Given the fact we acknowledge these dieties roles in this world/multiverse/universe. We can move on and try to understand shiv/shakti concept - http://www.sikhsanga...of-shiv-shakti/ , http://www.nihangsin...hil-shakti.html (not a niddar website, real nihang website)

2. Khalsa (embodiment of sri guru gobind singh ji) is higher than shiv and its shakti given the fact khalsa have not gone astray and khalsa is only or aims to be only nirgun shabad upsakh.

3. Shiv Shakti is not some "satan" concept, its pretty much part of sargun and nirgun play in Sikhi, its used in sargun rituals/yudh (listed in sri sarbloh granth) engaged by nihangs.!! At the end of day- picture does not matter, if it makes us feel better- you can replace shiv picture with sarbloh bibeki khalsa (all though i reckon being uncomfortable around sargun concept that itself is an roadblock in one's intuition of khalsa is fluid flow between sargun and nirgun).

4. Ek shiv bhae ek gae ek fer bhae raamchandar krisan ke avtaar bhi anek hain ll (its my favorite line i have it as ringtone sung beautifully by sant isher singh ji maharaj rara sahib wale), this pauri needs to be contextualize as maharaj is telling all the followers of all avtars/dieties in sri akaal ustat kabit- those who are stuck in sarguna worship of these avtars including our own ... to get their arse up and smell the cofee that all avtars physical body had to die were reduced to dust this blunt but truthful message given to sargun worshippers of avtars of that so that maharaj can rise their surti up from sarguna to shabad nirgun vahiguroo..these no where to be seen as attacks against avtars..read the 10 page analysis on avtarvad and sikhi by tirath singh nirmala in bhavrasamrit.

There is nothing bhramanical about Vahiguroo transceding its attributes or immanent its attributes to sargun(shud satogun) avtars according to need and time. There are many different types of avtar (listen to sant gyani gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale on avtars in japji sahib katha)

Jab Jab Hot Arsat Apara

Tab Tab Deh Dharat Avtara (Bachitar Natak)

Whenever numerous tyrants take birth

Then that one takes avtar in physical form.

Every one should read 18 long pages anyalsis in english on avtarvad and sikhi by tirath singh nirmala in Bhavrasamrit teeka translations and commentary. It's very interesting and clarifies gurmat position on avtarvaad and clears lot of misconception.

Whilst gurmat uses concept of avtar where it needs to, according to time (for guidance and to invoke devotion and prem - puran guru avtar - sri guru nanak dev ji form in 10 forms, puran hari avtars- krishna ram chandar ji etc, narsingh to kill harnakash and save parlad, nit avtars- saints etc) and for devotion for gurmukhs (sargun vahiguroo upma in our granths - sri guru granth sahib, sri dasam granth, sri sarbloh granth and other ithasik granths soraj parkash etc be it in form of gurbani tuks, mangal charan etc) it does not over emphasize importance on avtars to the point where sikhs start making same mistakes as some follower of other avtars did in the past have did - mistaking the gunas (shud satogun etc) themselves as nirgun chaitan vahiguroo instead of transcending naturally to gyan layer of sikhi or also idiolizing the avtars limited to an idol worshipping and getting stuck at idol worshipping forgetting indestructibale nirgun paratma. Hence, having dvait (duality) contary to Gurmat, as Gurmat is advait (non duality Marg).

Gurmat uses very careful and balance approach when it comes to avtarvad and Sikhi so sikhs don't pitfall like other followers of other dharams have. Gurbani contains two sides of same coin to teaching on avtar emphasing brahman (nirgun paratma) in sat chit anand ( Ad ant eko avtara sohi samjheo guru hamra) and on other side of coin presenting sargun paratma in form of our guru sahib to invoke devotion ie- prem.

Quote

Considered carefully there is no contradictions here on two sides of same coin on avtarvaad, its only clear guidance about the two paramaters by which to understand nature of avatar; the symbolic form is to inculate devotion, inspiration, adoration, love and sacrifice purely as a means to realise that which is beyond gunas

Ighai Nirugn Ughai Sargun kel Karat Bich Swami Mera

Here ( you are) formless; there (you are) with form. You play it both ways, O my swami || Ang - 827

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