MI5 felt ‘Sikhistan’ imminent as Nehru was too weak -Deccan Chronicle

[JasSinghKhalsa]

http://www.voiceofdh...ks/mla/ch13.htm

Evidences

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1st Paragraph -

Pakistan propaganda has sought to make the world believe that the happenings of 1947 in the Punjab were the result of what it calls ‘Some specific Plan’ on the part of Sikhs. -What this ‘Plan’ exactly was, what were the specific objectives which it set out to achieve is not made exactly clear, but nevertheless it is asserted that a Sikh ‘Plan’ existed to destroy Muslim life. Barefaced lying has been known to go quite far in the affairs of the world but such a high degree of it as has manifested itself in Pakistan propaganda against Sikhs in particular and against India in general, is a rare treat and is hard to beat. It must be a very stupid world which Pakistan expected would swallow the stuff put forth by its propagandists.

In Amritsar attacks on Muslims began after the 11th August, a day after the terrible massacre of thousands of Hindus and Sikhs occurred in Lahore. Refugees came from Lahore-the new wave had already reached East Punjab via Ferozepur by the 13th August. But their coming did not cause Sikhs anywhere to flare-up and to attack Muslims. Everyone somehow expected that Pakistan would have a good responsible Government, and that as soon as it was established some sort of order would be restored, more successfully than the British Government had been able to do. This hope, unfortunately, was soon belied.

The situation on the 15th August was that all East Punjab was quiet, the only part of East Punjab where attacks on Muslims had occurred was Amritsar, but Amritsar was a case apart. This was a city which had spent five and a half months in a state of siege and here Hindus and Sikhs had suffered terribly from Muslim aggression. So, punishment of Amritsar Muslims as soon as the stranglehold of the Muslim Police and officialdom was removed was only natural. A cornered, persecuted non-Muslim population fell upon their persecutors and made them flee from Amritsar in the brief space of a day and a half. But there were absolutely no repercussions of Amritsar in any part of East Punjab at this time.

WLS - read the article fully to understand the situation of that time, why and when violence happened and make statements only if you have full knowledge, else please keep your mouth shut.

[chatanga]

this surely all stems from a lack of leadership something the sikh nation has struggled with for a long time

we have had a leadership, it just hasnt had any future planning or methodology, short term or long term.

So lets get this straight : Not only are you unaware of history but you are refusing to do simple searches to find out ?

im thinking that you are the one who is unaware. I have already answered this point of yours in another related topic. lets see how good you are ar doing searches, so you can re-read it.

For example, I have at times here on this forum been honest about the dishonourable way that the Sikh Raj got hold of the Koh-i-Noor. When the ruler of Afghanistan , Shah Shuja, ran to Punjab and sought the help of the Sikhs, we Sikhs told him we would only give him sanctuary in a house in Ludhiana if he gave us the Koh-i-noor diamond....i.e give us the diamond or go back to Afghanistan and die

.

The only thing that has been honest is your lack of knowledge on this subject. Shah Shuja promised Maharaja Ranjit SInhg the gem if he saved his life, and after Maharaja Ranjit Singh has saved his life, he tried to evade giving the gem, firstly saying the gem had been pawned to facilitate his own safe arrival in Lahore. Mah. Ranjit Singh then turned the screws on him, and he gave it up.

Honour and truthfulness is a habit of mine.

You killin me bro. You killing me.

[West London Singh]

.

You killin me bro. You killing me.

You don't need killing Chatanga. You're already about as brain-dead as they come. Mercy is what you need.

The only thing that has been honest is your lack of knowledge on this subject. Shah Shuja promised Maharaja Ranjit SInhg the gem if he saved his life, and after Maharaja Ranjit Singh has saved his life, he tried to evade giving the gem, firstly saying the gem had been pawned to facilitate his own safe arrival in Lahore. Mah. Ranjit Singh then turned the screws on him, and he gave it up.

Wow !! :wow: So what you sayin bruvs ?.....That all the historians and chronicles of the time were lying and only the 3rd rate sikh, slightly un-padh scholars, putting their own spin on it are correct ?

Why do you people love arguing with me so much ?

Why are you so afraid of seeking and finding the truth ?

With the exception of those written with a distorted sikh spin read every single eye-witness and historical acount of how the Sikhs acquired the diamond. Every last one of those accounts paints a picture of us being lying, deceiving, conniving, sneaky little thieves. Whether its the swapping of turbans account or any other, none of the reality resembles the spin our own historians have put on the facts.

Instead of arguing with me here why not spend a day at the British Library and read as many unbiased accounts as I have about the matter. Surely that would be more productive.

Which brings us on to the number of dead during partition. Again....Are you gonna sit here all day abusing me or are you gonna read the official published reports of the time ?

I ain't your dad mate. I ain't here to hold you by the hand and teach you basic internet search strategies. God gave you a brain and god gave you hands. He also gave you eye-hand co-ordination. He gave that for a reason. Use it.

[chatanga]

You don't need killing Chatanga. You're already about as brain-dead as they come. Mercy is what you need.

Have mercy.

That all the historians and chronicles of the time were lying and only the 3rd rate sikh, slightly un-padh scholars, putting their own spin on it are correct ?

Im reading the actual words of Shah Shuja as recorded in the The Calcutta monthly, 1839 from his autobiography written in 1820s. He hasnt said anything of the sort that you are saying/making up.

Which brings us on to the number of dead during partition. Again....Are you gonna sit here all day abusing me or are you gonna read the official published reports of the time ?

why would i abuse you bhaji? I am too busy reading official reports which are so varied that some put the death figures at 100,000 and some at 1,000,000. And by their own admission, nobody knows exactly who and how many died. But both sides are going to say we were victims, but in the actual case of the Sikhs, we WERE the victims.

I ain't your dad mate.

Good, cos i like any good son, would never like to say " my dad is a prat".

[West London Singh]

Im reading the actual words of Shah Shuja as recorded in the The Calcutta monthly, 1839 from his autobiography written in 1820s. He hasnt said anything of the sort that you are saying/making up.

:biggrin2: You ain't 'reading' jack mate.....only you're too stupid to see it. I don't know that particular article as I was still in nappies in 1839 far away from Calcutta but what your're 'reading' - but too thick to realise what you were reading - is the version of Shah Shuja that was peddled by both Kushwant Singh and the article by Sawan Singh in the Sikh Review that has since gone on to be reproduced as fact in Sikh information websites such as Sikhwiki. One of them is a 3rd rate slightly unpadh scholar and the other, as you know, is a well known liar of such a magnificent scale that he has mastered the art of distortion and lies. Now....I've asked you before and I'll ask you again : Why is it that every single neutral account of those events shows us Sikhs as stealing the koh-i-noor through deceit , trickery, imprisonment and violence and the only version that states otherwise is the one peddled by our own sikh scholars ? Come back to me when you genuinely have Shah Shuja's 'autobiography' in front of you.

Now...I ask you 2 questions :

1) Isn't the very definition of us as 'Sikhs' that fact that we are scholars who continously seek to learn ?

2) Isn't the very essence of us as Sikhs the fact that we are in favour of truthfulness ?

why would i abuse you bhaji? I am too busy reading official reports which are so varied that some put the death figures at 100,000 and some at 1,000,000. And by their own admission, nobody knows exactly who and how many died. But both sides are going to say we were victims, but in the actual case of the Sikhs, we WERE the victims.

We're not talking a numbers game here and you know it. You know we're talking a proportion game. Despite repeated failed attempts to push you in the right direction of being a Sikh...i.e seeking knowledge and the truth, let me give you the little extra help you clearly need to at least get you started on the journey of discovery. To make things more palatable to you lets use non-muslim authors of reports because we know you'll have difficulty in accepting what muslims say.

Justice GD Khosla, an Indian in the official Indian report, states that the number of Muslims killed in Indian Punjab was greater than the total number of Sikh and Hindus killed added together in West Punjab (Pakistan).

Sir Pendrel Moon also stated that if the total number of Sikhs killed and the total number of Hindus killed were added together, the figure still falls well short of the number of Muslims killed.

So what exactly is the root of your argumentative and combatitive nature here Chatanga ? Is is your assertion that all those Muslims were actually killed by South London criminal gangs who had secretly sailed to Punjab in order to do a bit of villiany ? Or perhaps you feel they all died from a rather severe bout of flu and an even more severe shortage of vaccinations ?

[HSD2]

http://www.voiceofdh...ks/mla/ch13.htm

Have you read this article WLS? Or taken into account the proportion of people killed?

As for the Koh-i-Noor, there are no objective sources. Everyone wanted a piece of it. That involved claiming why it was rightfully yours and why everyone else didnt really deserve it. All sides (Sikhs/Afghans/Goreh) are all guilty of this.

[West London Singh]

Have you read this article WLS? Or taken into account the proportion of people killed?

I don't need to read that article HSD2 (btw...whatever happened to HSD1?). We're not playing the blame game here. Every man and his dog knows that the violence started with Muslims killing Sikhs and Hindus in west Punjab. As a good, honest, honourable, truthful person though (i.e a Sikh) I cannot turn my head and pretend I don't want to see what my great grandfathers did to the Muslims in doaba. Our reaction may have been understandable to some extent but its pure savagery can never be justified. My own great-grandfather told me stories of how he used to not only cut Muslim women into pieces but actually ripped muslim babies into pieces by pulling their arms off. Worse still is the way that Sikhs (seekers of knowledge and truth) today cover their eyes and ears and pretend that they just don't see and just don't hear. Thats not only a crying shame but such a person cannot, by definition, be a Sikh.

[HSD2]

I dont even know what happened to HSD1, but I think it was murder. But reincarnation brought me back.

The thing about taking the moral high ground is that it holds Sikhs to standards that make us guilty whilst letting others off as their own belief systems dont have the same level of decency. Both the Koran and Bible(and Torah) all talk about how an Abrahamic should live in peace time and war time. In wartime those people have virtually no standards. Sikhi recognises this hypocrisy and you are right that a lot of what Sikhs did was wrong in 47 as it was more to do with land and control rather than justice and a fight for a homeland. But there were only so many Sikhs the Muslims could get their hands on, where as we could get more of them as their population levels were far higher. It's not an excuse, just an explanation of the disproportionate casualty levels.

Also Panth Prakash shows ethnic cleansing had its uses for Sikhs and was often used for <banned word filter activated> for tat strikes against those who felt they were untouchable, a bit like how Muslims saw themselves in 47. Even today none of them display the same grief and self flagellation some of our own community do. The question is, if we hold ourselves to such high standard, how do we prevent such things happening? None of us lived through it. If I did, I cant honestly say how I would have reacted with all that was going on.

[chatanga]

One of them is a 3rd rate slightly unpadh scholar and the other, as you know, is a well known liar of such a magnificent scale that he has mastered the art of distortion and lies. Now....I've asked you before and I'll ask you again : Why is it that every single neutral account of those events shows us Sikhs as stealing the koh-i-noor through deceit , trickery, imprisonment and violence and the only version that states otherwise is the one peddled by our own sikh scholars ?

Khushwant singh is no friend of the Sikhs and he has never held back in criticising prominent sikh figures, so i cant see the logic in him making Maharaja Ranjit Singh out to be some hero. Nor can i see him being biased in his account.

Which account do you hold to be neutral? The ones written by the british that lied to go to war against the Lahore Darbar?

We're not talking a numbers game here and you know it. You know we're talking a proportion game.

Justice GD Khosla, an Indian in the official Indian report, states that the number of Muslims killed in Indian Punjab was greater than the total number of Sikh and Hindus killed added together in West Punjab (Pakistan). Sir Pendrel Moon also stated that if the total number of Sikhs killed and the total number of Hindus killed were added together, the figure still falls well short of the number of Muslims killed.

So what exactly is the root of your argumentative and combatitive nature here Chatanga ?

Even if we looked at proportion we couldnt say that the Sikhs killed many more than were killed. Let me give you a push (again) and re-iterate that there was no official number or proportion killed that was mildly accurate. People were missing for years, even upto 1952 sikhs and hindus were being recovered from pakistan, and probable the other way around as well. Sir Penderel Moon made no attempt to count any dead bodies either.

The only way they could look at the numbers killed was by looking at the flawed 1941 census, which gave absolutely no basis for a reliable headcount.

so what exactly is the root of my argumentative and combatative nature ? it is that in the absence of any concrete, or even semi-accurate figures, the numbers and proportion of killed, will always be unknown and any attempts, like yours, will be wildly figurative. They wont stand up to scrutiny anywhere.

the muslims say they never killed a single sikh in panjab, so i wouldnt credit their reports with any value whatsoever.

[chatanga]

I do not think it is right that hundreds of thousand of innocent Muslims were killed in 1947. But please note that the massacring was started by the Muslims in Rawalpindi (as others have pointed out in their links).

No Bhaji, the first pogrom against the Sikhs was in Hazara, north of Panjab, where all the Sikhs were killed or fled, this happened in december 1946. The whole of Hazara was ethnically cleansed of sikhs in the space of days.